[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Gravecrawler isn't the same kind of threat as Nether Shadow and Ashen Ghoul, because Gravecrawler's consistency is baded on the number of Gravecrawlers in the deck, where each can be hard cast to recur others, and where Nether Shadow and Ashen Ghoul are fine as just 2xetc.

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I agree. I'm thinking, though, that the main reason for why the "Spanish Lists" have been using Gravecrawlers is because we can easily hard-cast them whenever necessary - especially in the cases where we're forced to take the long route by trying to win via a clunky group of 1/1, 1/2, and 2/2 creatures. In those cases, Nether Shadow's :b::b: casting-cost may not look so bad too.

From what I can gather so far, it's difficult for me to justify running [3x] Gravecrawlers over [1x] Ashen Ghoul and [2x] Nether Shadow. Is there anything that we might have been missing here?

Kind Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by jares

I agree. I'm thinking, though, that the main reason for why the "Spanish Lists" have been using Gravecrawlers is because we can easily hard-cast them whenever necessary - especially in the cases where we're forced to take the long route by trying to win via a clunky group of 1/1, 1/2, and 2/2 creatures. In those cases, Nether Shadow's :b::b: casting-cost may not look so bad too.

From what I can gather so far, it's difficult for me to justify running [3x] Gravecrawlers over [1x] Ashen Ghoul and [2x] Nether Shadow. Is there anything that we might have been missing here?

Kind Regards,
jares

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Obviously you can't run that many additional creatures, nor would you want to. I think you just have to decide what mix of creatures you want in your SB if any, and it's probably going to be either an Ashen Ghoul and Nether Shadow(s) or Gravecrawlers at like 3x

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

+1,

I really dislike seeing the number of Ancient Grudges at +2x in SBs, I think a lot of people need to stop playing the second Ancient Grudge in favor of playing Tireless Tribes because it's better to make the deck more resistant vs Tormod's Crypt than it is to dry and address a hate card they may or may not draw and just hold onto a card that can't prevent Tormod's Crypt from activating later when they do draw it instead of just playing Tireless Tribe and accelerating your game plan.

Nature's Claim is also a card I'm hating more and more, mainly because the only hate I SB Nature's Claim in against is Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage, both of which can be addressed by Chain of Vapor and you have 4 more mana sources to cast it than Nature's Claim and don't need to SB in any more lands to support it at that rate. Chain of Vapor actually does useful shit in otherwise close match ups as well, like bounce Reanimator targets.

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I actually disagree on both of these points. First, regarding Grudge. You are correct that two Tribes would fight Crypt better than two Grudge. That's not why they are there. Most decks now are running some split like two Grudge, two Extraction. There's no point in running Grudge there, as they will be foreced to drop it, and use it almost immediately. Especially if they are a slower deck. And the only ones running 4X Crypt are some RUG versions. With those deck's speed, disruption, and reach, if they draw more than one, you're not likely to win anyway. Grudge is there for control, and for Artifact based decks. The latter should need no explanation. Against Control, they are running Stoneforge. And both Jitte and Batterskull are serious considerations. They also tend to run Relic and/or Nihil. Grudge is better against both of those than Crypt. The fact that some have Mishra's as well is just a bonus. Grudge also lets you hedge your bets against Blade Control by only boarding in two anti-Extraction men, and the two Grudge. Since the only way for them to beat you is remove your Bridges, and then race with either Jiite or Batterskull.

I'm also not in favor of Chain, though that may be more meta-dependant. My issue is, the decks running Cage, and to a lesser degree, Crypt/Relic, are decks that aren't highly favorable to begin with. That is; Burn, Zoo, Affinity, Goblins/Merfolk, and to a smaller extent, Sneak and Show. Now none of these decks are popular right now, but alll of them have game against Dredge even without sideboarding. And at any 8+ round tournament, the first four rounds give you a decent shot at seeing one. Against these decks, you board out some number of Breakthrough and LEDs. This is, of course, to cut the chances of overextending into a blowout, and because you know that they have virtually no way of disrupting what you do cast.

The problem with this, that there is no real way around, is that they all represent a legitimate clock. A lot of times, losing that explosiveness can lose you games. But the inherent inconsistancy, especially in the face of hate is usually not worth the risk. The problem with this when it comes to Chain vs. Claim though, is that with Chain, you need to "win" the turn you attempt to after bouncing the hate. However, post-board you lack to tools to guarantee this is accomplished. You EOT bounce their Cage, Dredge, and then cast Study. If you don't get enough on-board to win from that turn, you are likely in big trouble. Even with drawing 4 with Breakthrough can sometimes just shit on you; we've all been there. And it's the worst when you know that they are holding the hate in hand, and you don't hit that Narco/Therapy. Claim doesn't have that liability. And none of these decks have a draw/filter engine to get them multiple hate pieces.

I do agree that Chain is better against Reanimator, and if you see more of that locally than the aforementioned decks, then that could easily sway a decision in a different direction.

I think right now it's actually fundamentally wrong to board out LED's in the aforementioned scenarios. Winning as fast and as early as possible should always be your priority, because this is a combo deck at heart. You can't afford to let your opponent mulligan into hate and give them more time to find answers. The only exception to this would be against a deck sporting Leyline in the board, which a base knowledge of the format helps when sideboarding. Otherwise, they stay in and punish opponents for bad keeps, spotty mulligans, and just blows the game out of reach.

Additionally, I think Firestorm is on a rapid decline in LED Dredge. The card can be a blowout, but against most decks you can out-aggro them anyways. Hate-bears are minimal in basically Ooze, which you can laugh at by blowing the game wide open against early enough. Ancient Grudge is an incredibly good utility spell and very important at that, and if anything I'd boost mine up to three. Cage is seeing minimal play, and to be honest I am more concerned with cards like Crypt, Relic, Jitte, and Batterskull on board against me. Grudge gives me a definitive answer and is incredibly good against those cards.

Chain is also good against Reanimator, but meh. I just prefer to win before my opponents do which is why I keep the Claims in the board for cards like Cage, Leyline, etc. Coffin Purge hasn't seen play from my board in a while, and I generally bring it in against Lands or decks sporting Intuition packages abusing Life from the Loam - tagging cards like Bog, Chasm, etc. (those cards do exist). I don't even bother with a transformational board at this point. I'm not fixing something that isn't broken, and honestly being up a game just gives me great leverage. Therapy is key, and that should be good enough against Extraction (it always has been for me). Diversifying is fine, but it's not 100% necessary.

I have brought back 3x Ancient Grudges to my sideboard. It is a stronger card at the moment. Surgical Extraction is in decline while crypt is on the rise. This could be he fact that dredge is currently more scary than Reanimator. Also, nasty equipment is everywhere at the moment, and blowing something up from out of your graveyard is pure card/board advantage.

What do you guys use as sideboard cards against Sneak Show other than possibly Angel of Despair? Using Cabal Therapy wisely is always there, but I can't think of anything else I have on my SB that will be useful against this match-up.

Cheers,
jares

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Originally Posted by jares

What do you guys use as sideboard cards against Sneak Show other than possibly Angel of Despair? Using Cabal Therapy wisely is always there, but I can't think of anything else I have on my SB that will be useful against this match-up.

Cheers,
jares

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Just crush them before they can do anything relevant against you. You're incredibly fast, and assuming they actually do manage to cast a Show and Tell, you just drop something into play and kill them as soon as possible by dredging through your deck.

I just think the deck is so incredibly strong pre-board that playing artsy-fartsy sideboarding strategies and dicking around with the main-deck by subbing out useful cards that shouldn't be tampered with is a mistake more often than not. Sure, a Ray of Revelation will help when it's dredged and an opponent plays a Sneak Attack tapped out, but really - by the time that hits play you should have either won, ripped their hand apart, or created a virtually non-winnable scenario for them to battle out of.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Regarding additional SB threats vs Surgical Extractions, I think you should play 1xAhen Ghoul and XxNether Shadows where you can SB out X of your Ichorids (in the case of Quadlazer, -2 Ichorid) and diversify your threat base to minimize the impact of Surgical Extraction.

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Do people really go after Ichorid with Surgical Extraction? It seems like the kind of decks that want to use that card are either aggressive (ANT, RUG) or can easily recur it (ie run Snapcaster, like UW Stoneblade) and therefore should first and foremost be hitting Bridge with Extraction. If they hit Bridges first the game instantly becomes more grindy, but the aformentioned archetypes can deal with that. If they hit Ichorid, however, we can still build a small army off Narcos and sac triggers. That too will make the game more grindy, but far less so than without Bridges.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

Just crush them before they can do anything relevant against you. You're incredibly fast, and assuming they actually do manage to cast a Show and Tell, you just drop something into play and kill them as soon as possible by dredging through your deck.

I just think the deck is so incredibly strong pre-board that playing artsy-fartsy sideboarding strategies and dicking around with the main-deck by subbing out useful cards that shouldn't be tampered with is a mistake more often than not. Sure, a Ray of Revelation will help when it's dredged and an opponent plays a Sneak Attack tapped out, but really - by the time that hits play you should have either won, ripped their hand apart, or created a virtually non-winnable scenario for them to battle out of.

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I guess that always works. :tongue:

It's always a point of caution for Dredge players to not go over-board (pun intended). I was just wondering if there might be something specific that would be worth mentioning for the Sneaky Show match-up, though it seems that you've already indirectly validated my observation that there really isn't much reason to board stuff in other than what has already been mentioned.

Cheers,
jares

People will go for almost anything with Surgical Extraction, smart or not. The correct target is almost always Narcomoeba, however, given that decks with low Ichorid counts are reduced to much slower tactics without Narcomoeba's cheatyface abilities. Piloting UW Control, I literally win or lose based on how fast I can Surgical a Narcomoeba.

Sneak Show and other Show and Tell variants are best dealt with through Cabal Therapy.

As for Show and Tell, you can always run Griselbrand as a DR target once Avacyn comes out. Chances are, if your opponent Show and Tells an Emrakul and you drop a Griselbrand, you're going to win this race. Even without a haste-enabler to finish them before they get a swing, you can roll through most of your deck with Griselbrand's ability, make a bunch of tokens and/or Narcomoebas, sacrifice your Narcomoebas to Annihilator to make more tokens, chump Emrakul with Griselbrand, and swing for the win next turn.

EDIT: Obviously, this is terrible against Hive Mind, but in this matchup, just savage them with Cabal Therapy.

Sneak and Show should not be a difficult matchup. The only draw that they have that is fast enough to race is a turn two(three on the play, maybe) Show and Tell dropping Progenitus/Griselbrand. And even that won't do it if they weren't able to use their minimal counter-suite to stop your opening. Or if you can use their SnT for something decent. Sneak Attack is a joke, and Emrakul is often easily blocked, with a lethal counter-attack in return.

The problem is, that most of the decent players know this. That is why they run a set of either Leylines, or Cages. You really need to bring in Claim/Chain against them, and force them to play protect the queen, while using Therapy in that case to clear the way. The good part about this is that they can't mulligan to hate. They need so much to complete their combo that even a seven-card hand with hate might not be keepable. Especially if you can hard-cast Therapy for whichever of their bombs they seem to be aiming for. They've found out that Extraction won't slow us down enough to win, considering the life loss, and the loss of a piece they need in their opener.

I don't even bring in DR targets against them. Only bringing in the 4 Claims for 3 Breathrough and an Ichorid. And unless you have it in your hand when they SnT, or it's a FKZ or Ancestor's Chosen, the vast majority of the time, you will win(or lose) regardless of target. I have had times when I did lose the race, only because I didn't have access to either of those targets. But I'm not adding them just for this matchup. There is a chance that Griselbrand could change this, but only because some might now replace Progenitus with GB. You'll have to legend rule him, swing, and hope either that they are low enough on life from his ability, or didn't get enough to kill you on their next turn. Therapy for Sneak Attack should take care of this.

If they have Progenitus, you just DR an Ichorid to get more tokens, or a Troll if you can force through lethal. Against Emrakul, assuming you will have at least 6 other permanents, you DR Stinkweed. This is assuming that you have access to, and need to use DR at all.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

People will go for almost anything with Surgical Extraction, smart or not. The correct target is almost always Narcomoeba, however, given that decks with low Ichorid counts are reduced to much slower tactics without Narcomoeba's cheatyface abilities. Piloting UW Control, I literally win or lose based on how fast I can Surgical a Narcomoeba.

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This is pretty true.

People tend to use surgical extraction on your first dredgers, ichorid, or bridge from below. Typically which ever they see first. Sometimes Cabal Therapy or Narcomoeba is the better extraction target and my opponent doesn't realize this and I win. Not to say I haven't been blow out by having my only dredger extracted, but just saying people tend to be trigger happy with it.

I guess people tend to extract whatever they see first, but the smart-or-not part differs on whether the guy will try to extract your dredger or your business.

Also, extracting whatever they see first is not necessarily wrong. Some decks use extraction just to gain some time, and extracting at will like this will get them time, at least most of the time (time, time, time...). And this time can be used to get what really ends the game when using extraction: the second extraction.

How do you guys feel about playing through Trinisphere from the Sneak Attack player's sideboard? This ups the number of turn 1-3 power plays quite a bit and seems pretty difficult for dredge to fight through.

Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void at 1 are irritating, but they aren't necessarily an automatic win because Dredge just moves straight into DDD and in the case of Chalice of the Void you can still resolve Lion's Eye Diamond to discard your hand and activate Cephalid Coliseum and use Cabal Therapy to kill off your creatures and trigger Bridge from Below. I doubt Trinisphere is a serious consideration because you can't resolve it turn 1 consistently, while Chalice of the Void gets royally butt fucked by Ancient Grudge.

@Parcher, I disagree with the need to win after resolving Chain of Vapor vs Grafdigger's Cage, you can still develop your graveyard state by discarding Dredgers and resolving your draw spells with Grafdigger's Cage on the board so it's not particularly difficult to bounce it and Cabal Theray it away.

Also boarding out Lion's Eye Diamond is a terrible idea, even against decks where Lion's Eye Diamond risks a blow out because it's a mana source for 8 of your business spells, a 0 mana Time Walk and a sand bagged draw spell all in one card. I honestly think Breakthrough is the worst card in the deck as far as business spells are concerned and I'm totally cool with people only MDing 3 of them considering how often I SB them out for situationally specific cards.

I don't dislike Ancient Grudge, but I'd just rather play a card that's always useful as opposed to a card that's conditionally useful i.e. Tireless Tribe, because it's still reasonably effective vs Tormod's Crypt regardless and it actually does something the times they either don't draw hate they're hate is diversifed between a Crypt, Relic, Nihil, Surgical Extraction, Black Trap etc. to circument Cabal Therapy. The only reason I play Chain of Vapor is because I don't like being completely dead vs Leyline of the Void or Grafdigger's Cage, and if you're not playing an answer to either of those then why not just play Manaless Dredge?

I think I'm just going to play Quad Lazer with -1 Breakthrough, -1 Golgari Thug for +2 Tarnished Citadel and clear up my SB space. Not being able to land Putrid Imp and hard casted Cabal Therapy consistently off 8 gold lands is really pissing me off and I think people are horribly over emphasizing the combo aspect of the deck over the more reliable DDD grind vs U.dec. The number of people who just walk into Daze and Wasteland on Cockatrice makes me want to vommit.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I think people are horribly over emphasizing the combo aspect of the deck over the more reliable DDD grind vs U.dec.

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I'm not sure about the "over-emphasizing" part, but I've noticed that I've also been leaning more and more towards the play-style of grinding games out (especially post-board) rather than on the combo plan. This inclination has caused me to value Cabal Therapy even more (especially the blind therapies), and have prompted me to be more critical of the sideboard cards that I need to include, as I've noticed that the margin of error for the grind-out games are much slimmer.

I agree that Dredge is a combo deck at heart (which makes me think twice about the game plan that I'm leaning towards), but I've always felt that the deck has been more reliable when run with as few of its optional "packages" as possible. That might just be me though.

Kind Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by jares

I'm not sure about the "over-emphasizing" part, but I've noticed that I've also been leaning more and more towards the play-style of grinding games out (especially post-board) rather than on the combo plan. This inclination has caused me to value Cabal Therapy even more (especially the blind therapies), and have prompted me to be more critical of the sideboard cards that I need to include, as I've noticed that the margin of error for the grind-out games are much slimmer.

I agree that Dredge is a combo deck at heart (which makes me think twice about the game plan that I'm leaning towards), but I've always felt that the deck has been more reliable when run with as few of its optional "packages" as possible. That might just be me though.

Kind Regards,
jares

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The thing is, Dredge is not a combo deck at heart and it never was a combo deck at heart if you had played all of the iterations of Dredge in the history of Legacy, people just don't understand how Dredge works without the explosive openings and combo finishes as well as they do with them. I've always emphasized the DDD approach to Dredge, and while I've opened up my play to include the combo approach as well, the fact of the matter is that any moron can "go off" with Dredge so it's not really where you should be spending your energy learning how to play the deck.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

The thing is, Dredge is not a combo deck at heart and it never was a combo deck at heart if you had played all of the iterations of Dredge in the history of Legacy

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I won't be able to claim to have been able to play all the iterations of Dredge, but based on what I've been able to learn so far, this is where we would disagree. I do understand what you're trying to say, though, and it seems to me that it's really just a matter of how we look at the core mechanism that makes Dredge what it is.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

the fact of the matter is that any moron can "go off" with Dredge so it's not really where you should be spending your energy learning how to play the deck.

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More importantly, this is where we agree, and I expect most to eventually discover this for themselves too.

Cheers,
jares

I agree that Dredge is not a Combo deck at heart. It's an aggro-combo deck at heart. Whenever you win without casting a draw spell, or going DDD route, you are just going aggro instead of combo, imo.

LED dredge, however, tries to maximize the combo route, and since everyone plays LED these days, this is probably why everyone call Dredge a combo deck.

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Originally Posted by Gui

I agree that Dredge is not a Combo deck at heart. It's an aggro-combo deck at heart. Whenever you win without casting a draw spell, or going DDD route, you are just going aggro instead of combo, imo.

LED dredge, however, tries to maximize the combo route, and since everyone plays LED these days, this is probably why everyone call Dredge a combo deck.

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Dredge most definitely is a combo deck at its very core. The fundamentals that the deck is largely predicated on are a blueprint that mirrors every other type of combo-oriented deck in the format; it just happens to use creatures to win the game instead of the Storm mechanic (I'm referring to LED Dredge here, btw).

LED is LED in the deck; there is no discrimination there. Your draw spells, however, act like tutors because they allow you to plow through your library, thus placing the cards you need into your graveyard - which is virtually an extension of your hand. This fetches up win-conditions and allows you to use accelerates like Cabal Therapy into a massive amount of tokens. There really is no difference in how you're proceeding to win the game except that you're not playing Ritual effects but Therapies and you're not playing tutors you're playing draw spells. It's idealistically the same premise.

Dread Return is basically like your Tendrils (in a generic Storm comparison): it wins you the game when you cast it.