All I can say right now is that Demonic Tutor is banned in Legacy. Everything else just needs testing.
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All I can say right now is that Demonic Tutor is banned in Legacy. Everything else just needs testing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dameus
First, there is no way I will ever be able to justify $150 a card for 4 imperial recruiters. I do agree that they seem quite good for cutting down cards needed for the combo, however with the list I had posted, recruiters would lower the number of blue cards to the point FOW would not be consistent. If I were to add them, I'd probably remove 2 strix and 2 harpies.
Worldly Tutor is card disadvantage in most cases, but it does serve an important function by finding the creatures necessary for your combo. It can also act as a counterspell if CB is on the table (this would negate the card disadvantage correct?). Also, I realize that it can't find Aluren which is of course a huge negative. I was hoping that brainstorm + top + mulligans would give you enough opportunities to find Aluren while the rest of the deck provides the D.
Also, I would have liked to include intuition in my list, but one of the major benefits of intuition for this deck seems to be the interaction with cabal therapy, and in order to make that effective, more creatures would probably be necessary (as flashback enablers). I was also having difficulty just coming up with slots for an intuition package because of the addition of top and CB. Maybe CB/Top is entirely unnecessary, but it seems like it would give you the additional defense to get your combo online.
Intuition's presence isn't justified by Cabal Therapy alone. Since you want to run 4 copies of everything you can easily find the missing creature, land, CounterTop piece, etc. to win the game or stabilize the board.
True, I had kind of forgot about the possibility of intuitioning for 3 of the same card (this is why I posted the Noob disclaimer in my original post). Ok, in that case what would you remove from my original list? Worldly tutor perhaps? I know it isn't that great of a card, but it seems like it would be very synergistic with much of the deck. I could cut a strix and a harpy each and maybe take out one goyf? Also, if I do add intuition, is therapy a necessary addition? If so, what should be cut?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonex
I personally do not understand the obsession with Imperial Recruiters in this deck. I had extensively tested and then abandoned recruiters as unneeded a year before mr. inovator became inspired. And toad had discounted recruiters long before I did. While they stream-line the combo, they are bad draws before aluren hits the table. They make for a bad manabase. And like you mentioned, they do not pitch to FOW. It doesn't make the combo any faster, just easier to assemble. All in all, if I had a set of recruiters right now, I wouldn't waste my time putting them in Aluren, I'd put them in the painter deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by nateo
Just out of curiosity, would switching tarmogoyf for Quirion Dryad be in that "danger of cool things" category? If you have Dryad on the board and Aluren hits, then cavern harpy or Man-O-War would allow for dryad to be the size you choose. Of course he wouldn't be nearly as strong of a topdeck, but it should still create some of the earlygame diversion that goyf would... It probably isn't worth it, but I thought I'd see what the concensus was.
The only point I see to run Tarmogoyf is to stop opposing Tarmogoyfs, because they eventually become too big for our Walls to stop. I think Quirion Dryad indeed falls in danger of cool things.
However, I'm testing 2 Unearth in place of 2 Tarmogoyf and I may replace the last one with the last Wall of Roots. Let's see what happens.
Hey,
I was wondering if anyone saw any new stuff to put into the deck?
http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tc...GARB_EN_LR.jpg
Lorescale Coatl appears to be cool but redundant when the deck goes off, but it could be used as a replacement for tarmogoyf and may become bigger with the help of wall of blossoms + brainstorm + intuition + top
Also I was thinking about Nulltread Gargantuan?
http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tc...GARB_EN_LR.jpg
He could also be a good replacement for goyf or even a creature for the deck since he's
1) pitchable to FoW
2) can help your draw engine by returning wall of blossoms / raven familiar for more draw
3) big fatty for a reasonable casting cost in the early game
4) Direct the attention of your opponent, a 5/6 on turn 3 is nothing to scoff at
Coatl can't preform Tarmogoyf's main function, namely being a wall against opposing Goyfs in the early game.
Gargantuan if anything is a replacement for MoW. It can't function as a Goyf because you would have almost no < 3cc creatures left, making it nearly impossible to cast in the early game. And even if you do, it slows your development/digging which is something combo decks usually try to avoid.
Just curious, but does the current list run Remand? It could be a big help both defensively and offensively. Play Aluren, they counter, you remand your own Aluren and do it again next turn. Same goes for your creatures during your combo turn.
I think that Aluren should not run Recruiters. Honestly, it's overkill and something people only use if they have the money to blow. Aluren was good even before they started allowing P3K. It's Spike Feeder I don't understand...Why do people use it? Strix is so much better...
Pce,
--DC
This deck looks kinda slow, cool concept though. I see some walls and bounce, possibly FoW but the kill seems like it's just really slow. How does this deck fair against decks like Storm, Merfolk, Faerie/Dragon Stompy, POX, Reanimator, or Zoo? The better decks usually have better disruption, which is why it seems tricky to pull off a combo like this
I'm not sure you are grasping the concept in it's entirety. It's an infi-lifeloss combo, infi-life gain combo, draw all your cards, return every card in your graveyard to your hand combo, near infinite force of wills at instant speed combo, etc. etc. all by turn 4. Sometimes turn 3. It's only slow in that it's slow for combo.
I sound a lot like an asshole.
Pce,
--DC
EDIT::: And it's only tricky if you don't know the trix. This deck really takes practice, and knowledge of other archetypical decks so you know how to sideboard around the hate in those lists that do run good disruption. Krosan Grip and bounce make this deck's job difficult, as it hinges soley on Aluren. Goyf beats is backup, and one of the better changes in recent history to the list in my opinion (other than E. Witness).
Krosan Grip / Extirpate is obviously the bane of this deck, just like they're deadly to every other enchantment combo oriented deck.
How are your experiences playing this deck with either one of these cards?
I guess Tarmogoyf really plays a big role in this since it gives you a solid second kill option when your Aluren is gripped and extirpated.
My last experience against that, I had to Wished into a Darksteel Colossus to win the game - quite a close game that I doubt would work multiple times.
I remember reading about players having priority and you are able to play only creatures from your hand even when your Aluren is about to be kgripped.
Feel free to clear things up for me.
Thanks
Like all combo decks one can always envisage a combination of cards that ruin your day - and K grip plus extirpate is certainly one of these. Whilst both cards are widely played, to use it against you requires your opponent to have both cards in hand and four mana available. Given that you can go off on turn 3 quite realistically, to keep grip and extirpate open your opponent will have to play entirely a defensive game, not being able to tap down to advance their own strategy at all, which is usually a poor idea in legacy. Furthermore, many aluren decks play both cabal therapy and thoughtsieze (I do now, in preference to the duo of therapy and force of will, party due to grip issues) which allows you to take the grip out of their hand before you go off.Quote:
Originally Posted by P-AiR
If they do not have 4 mana / extirpate then the most grip does is set you back a couple of turns + a give you a chump blocker: you play aluren; if you have a witness in hand you put that on the stack and then without passing priority put recruiter on the stack and go off with witness floating so that if they grip when you pass priority the last thing to resolve will be the witness trigger returning aluren; if you have no witness you play recruiter; if they grip when you pass priority, then the aluren will go to the yard, your recruiter trigger will then resolve and you can get witness, to later play it and return the aluren. This is far from ideal, but not as utterly devastating as might have been anticipated!
I am not saying that grip is not a concern, but it is one that can be played round by either timing going off when they have tapped to below 3 mana, or using discard.
Or just beating their faces with goyfs.... :smile:
Krosan Grip is near meaningless on its own if you run Cabal Therapy. You can pretty much discard it out of their hand with ease and guarantee that they can't get it back with the second/third Therapy (of course, you'll be taking countermagic with it). Counterbalance, Extirpate, a good offense (such as Zoo or more particularly Pridemage), effective discard, recurring enchantment removal (such as Survival), and fast decks are far more problematic for Aluren than Grip is. I'm not happy when Eva Green plays Seal earlier in the game and just keeps applying pressure though - I certainly don't like that. I also don't love "turn one Nacatl" or "turn one Nauseum - you die".
There are more important things to worry about than the "Grip kills this deck" nonsense.
I generally love it when Thresh players waste mana on Grip instead of digging their asses off for Counterbalances, Tops, and Coatls which is what I'm really afraid of.
Sorry, this is my first time posting on the boards... I have been reading for a year or two now and figure I should start contributing (especially as I have finally transitioned from solidarity --> thresh --> landstill --> CB scepter chant (an interesting deck) --> ??Aluren??).
3 things, just to start with:
1) Just to warn you, I am still fairly new to legacy and to Aluren and am looking for some help for a new deck to take to smaller but still competitive tournaments
2) I am rarely, if ever, worried about Krosan grip. As has already been explained in this forum, you can play out the creatures from your hand before passing priority (not great... but better than nothing), and being a control/combo deck means you should only try going off after therapy'ing their hand
3) My biggest worry at the moment is the counterbalance/top locks which are so prevalent nowadays as they can totally wreck this deck
My list (running recruiters... *chuckle* Yes I have a playset, and no I did not pay the ridiculous amount they cost now):
------------------------------
// Lands
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Volcanic Island
2 Windswept Heath
1 Underground Sea
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
// Creatures
4 Wall of Roots
2 Dream Stalker
1 Man-o'-War
1 Cavern Harpy
1 Ghitu Slinger
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Eternal Witness
1 Parasitic Strix
3 Tarmogoyf
// Spells
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Aluren
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Intuition
1 Echoing Truth
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Extirpate
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 Divert
SB: 3 Reverent Silence
----------------------------------
My findings with this list:
- Ghitu slinger is an alt. win condition and generally there to help against Canonist/Teeg/Meddling Mage
- There are barely enough blue cards to support FoW, but they are far too good to cut... I run 3 as my concession but am not sure if this is correct
- Cabal therapy is too good to not run
- Wall of roots is fantastic as an early blocker and mana acceleration and as a therapy target, blossoms just did not do enough for me (brainstorm stayed as my replacement and as a first turn play)
- Technically I have an extra dream stalker/man-o-war but as I have only 3 goys, and they are blue, it gives me extra insurance when wanting to combo out
- The mana base has been great for me, but it suffers from blood moon... badly
My questions:
- Should I run a living wish package instead? This would allow me to add more answers in creature form into the sideboard, but I have no testing / familiarity with this
- What changes should/could be made to the mana base to make it less susceptible to blood moon-effects?
- Both slinger and strix require targeting. I have not had an issue facing or dealing with "non-targeting" but if this is a big issue, what would be better to sub in?
- This list lacks creature removal aside from goyf beats and bounce... I have only wished for removal against tombstalker sometimes and dreadnaught all the time (but that could be dealt with by including a viridian shaman?). I used to use bone shredder (useless against the two I just listed), but was wondering if there was anything new / better to try?
- Finally, my sideboard is almost primarily targetted against enchantments, with extripates and deeds for alternative problems and diverts as a neat throwback to anti-pikula strategies. Any suggestiosn re: sideboard? I was thinking annul instead of divert, but they help so much with sinkhole and other LD
- Finally, is Aluren even still a contender? I know people do not play it much anymore, but I thought cost had a lot to do with that... anyone have a bit of a match breakdown against major archetypes?
Finally, here is a breakdown of some of my match experiences:
Thresh/CB-top:
- Gameplan is to get down a goyf or wall to stop the initial creature barrage
- In addition you are fighting to prevent them from dropping the CB/top lock on you... a first turn top makes me wish for annul
- once they drop top (it will usually resolve against you), your plan is to prevent counterbalance from hitting the table at all costs. You can afford to wait and therapy/force them out as long as you have goyf/wall blocking the ground
- Generally not an easy match-up. If you can prevent counterbalance from hitting you are gold. Then you just intuition for 3x therapy, strip their hand with flashback, drop aluren and win
- SB: I always want to bring in reverent silence and diverts... but its so hard to take stuff out!
Dreadtstill/Team America:
- not too many people play this anymore
- Gameplan here is to stop or neutralize their one big threat. They also run the CB/top shell though, so again, don't allow counterbalance to hit
- I always lose to an early dreadnaught, but can usually survive against a tombstalker (often with harpy blocks or just combo'ing out the turn before i die)
- SB: 2x grip, 2x deed for 3x goyf, 1x aluren or intuition or dream stalker
Landstill:
- This is generally favourable
- I have had trouble here with meddling mage in SB, hence the slinger (I guess it could be in my SB?)
- SB: sometimes extripate for 1x aluren, 1x wall of roots, 1x echoing truth, 1x dream stalker, sometimes nothing
Goblins:
- Earwig squad sucks... a lot, thankfully not that many people play it
- 1st turn lackey makes me wish for tinder wall, or SOMETHING
- generally here the walls / goyfs stall for time and I often can get the combo off before dying. Makes me miss the feeder for blocking + lifegain
SB: 3x deed for 3x intuition (makes me cry as FoW becomes brutal, but the creatures need to stay as they make for good blocking overall) I am willing to take suggestions on this
Tezzeret:
- This generally comes down to a counter-war, therapy is my all star
- You generally have time, but they have card advantage ... plan accordingly
- Sometimes they will just come out of nowhere and end the game, as such, FoW is only used on game-enders
- Use the recruiters to find witnesses to re-cast intuition / therapy if you need to simply to start draining their counters as it just makes your life that much easier when you go off
SB: 3x deed, 3x divert for 3x wall of roots, 1x man-o-war, 1x aluren, 1x echoing truth (divert = more blue = easier FoW + increased counters for the early game... and deed tends to rock their world, giving you more time to build up instead of using wall of roots).
AIR/Dragon stompy
- you either lose first/second turn or you can generally win
- walls are key as blockers and mana generation
- here is where my list shows its lack of basics, as I will often have searched for a tropical island... or have only fetches in my hand when a blood moon effect hits. FoW the moon.
- Again, this is a type of deck I could use some specific help against
ANT/Belcher:
- these are dedicated combo decks, as such they are faster than you and designed to "go-off"
- If you can own the early game, you are often good... especially against belcher, as 10 tokens from ETW is often gg
- For ANT, therapy is a good start, and often I will just FoW brainstorm to prevent them from really getting going, but only if I think I have a reasonable chance to get aluren into play the next turn
- I do not have enough experience against these two combo decks to really say how to best attack them, but man they can be explosive!
Painter
- Have not played much against this, but similarly to AIR or dragon stompy... blood moon hurts
Thought i would mention that aluren had 2 places in the last 2 month, both pretty generic non-recruiter builds (no goyfs):
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25046
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24108
@rath: this will be my one and only comment about recruiter: you could kill 2 birds with 1 stone by dropping them (mana base problems and lack of blue cards) and add consistancy against random jank.dec
2 dream stalkers is probably too many, especially since manowar is sexy. The ghitu slinger is also uneeded, since strix/feeder do the exact same thing and are better by themselves. I understand why you have the 1 echoing truth, but chain of vapor is alot better. If counterbalance is honestly that big of a deal, i would rather have pernicious deed in the main than echoing truth. I also think that you should either run all 4 goyfs or none at all, but if it works for you...
i havent had a whole lot of luck with the deck, especially with all the land hate/counter-balance/merfolk lurking around. Maybe your expereince has been different, but i would rather play a different deck atm.
I tested versions with and without Recruiters / Goyfs, my thoughts about your list are:
- Mana base: you run way too many fetchlands and unnecessary duals. Flooded Strand, Windswept Heath, Underground Sea, Badlands and Taiga must be cut immediately. You need at least another Bayou, another Volcanic Island, a Swamp, and the rest should be basic lands.
- Creatures: Imperial Recruiter is a pretty complicated card. My experience tells me that Aluren generally plays the control role before the enchantment hits play and switches to combo after that, and that Recruiter greatly strengthens the combo role but at the cost of severely weakening the control one. There are some reasons why I think so:
- Although it's as simple as adding 1-2 Volcanic Island, you need to splash for an additional color
- You need specific cards to protect the combo (Dream Stalker) which are generally bad by themselves, and they usually take slots from good cards (Man-o'-War)
- Recruiter itself is bad without Aluren due to its innate tempo loss (the creature should be put directly into play to fix that, as broken as it may sound)
IMHO Aluren plays the control role for the most part of the game and therefore it needs to be good at that, which is why I think Recruiters fall in danger of cool things. I can be plain wrong, though.
Parasitic Strix could be cut, you already have Ghitu Slinger as a win condition and don't need more. If you feel the need to have an extra win condition, though, Spike Feeder is all you want. The reason is the same as above: both creatures are valid mid-combo, but when you play the control role, Spike Feeder is better.
Tarmogoyf mostly blocks as an additional Wall and gives the deck access to an aggro role that was rather weak before, but it's not a card you'd love to see when going off, so 3 are fairly ok to me.
What surprises me is that you run only Recruiters to assemble the combo. I couldn't do almost anything without the help of Wall of Blossoms and Raven Familiar, 4 of each are mandatory to me.
- Other spells: I eventually replaced Brainstorm with Sensei's Divining Top and Force of Will with Pernicious Deed. I recommend you to test it. As roopa says, Chain of Vapor is Better than Echoing Truth.
- Sideboard: what I liked the most from splashing red was Red Elemental Blast, you could give them a try. Reverent Silence is good but only against Counterbalance, so it could be cut as long as you keep Krosan Grip in. Counterbalance is good against Pikula decks as well if you run Sensei's Divining Top. Duress is generally better than Extirpate against combo.
I haven't played this deck in an actual tournament in a while, but this is the list I've been testing on MWS lately...
// Lands
2 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [6E] Island (4)
4 [MI] Crystal Vein
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [A] Tropical Island
// Creatures
2 [CNF] Parasitic Strix
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [PS] Cavern Harpy
4 [MI] Wall of Roots
4 [UL] Raven Familiar
// Spells
4 [TE] Aluren
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [CS] Counterbalance
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 4 [FD] Eternal Witness
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
I haven't played it in a while so I'm pretty sure the SB is terrible... I'm not really sure what matchup the witnesses were there for.
But yeah, I feel like this is a pretty solid list. I can get through control decks, and can go off before aggro decks can really kill me. The combo matchup isn't great, so that's probably what my SB needs some dedication to.
Care to elaborate and give a list? I tried switching deeds to the main and force to the board before, and was never happy with it. Deed can flatout win against certain decks, but is dead against others. Force can let you squeek by those same decks that deed wins against, and is far from dead against everything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonex