[Deck] bUrg Tempo

Thanks for stating your arguments, Tormod. We are not that far away with our opinions. We discuss only if your 75 cards need one single shroud creature more or not. Especially the Jund MU feels great with 3-4 shroud creatures, DnT, too. However I run only one Pierce in my list and have not much protection for my creatures. That is why the shroud creature number is at 4 in my list. We can state that 0 shroud creatures is bad - Team Anerica runs 14 creatures just because of that lack of shroud creatures. RUG is happy with 4 for years. But are 4 necessary? I think no. My conservative approach would be to state 3 as the perfect count. But perhaps two is also rather ok? What is the sweet spot for the number of shroud creatures? We should explore that. The answer will be 2 or 3. We must decide on that.

I agree that reaching Thresh is much harder in bUrg than in RUG.

While I know that Probes help there, Thought Scours would help more. I think that everyone would run Geese if they had Thresh on turn 3-4. We would not discuss the need of TNN then or at least to a lesser extent.

I was nitpicking on a detail, but you're likely right. 3 Shroud creatures is better than 2.

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Originally Posted by Sasan

I agree that reaching Thresh is much harder in bUrg than in RUG.

While I know that Probes help there, Thought Scours would help more. I think that everyone would run Geese if they had Thresh on turn 3-4. We would not discuss the need of TNN then or at least to a lesser extent.

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I agree Sasan. Consistency is what wins tournaments.

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Originally Posted by Sasan

While I know that Probes help there, Thought Scours would help more. I think that everyone would run Geese if they had Thresh on turn 3-4. We would not discuss the need of TNN then or at least to a lesser extent.

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I would be in favor of Scour if it weren't for that pesky (but necessary!) non-blue dual. It can be very important to hold up U mana while filling your graveyard.

http://blog.mtgmadness.com/index.php...tch/mtgmadness

Carsten wins versus Michael Bonde. bUrg at its best. Watch the video :-)

Well, that was awful. I was really eager looking forward to see a match of a very interesting matchup between 2 supposedly strong players, and I received random MtgMadness promotion. Funny if you are friends with the guys I guess, but quite pointless for me...

Playing against a known opponent while knowing his deck and adjusting the board according to that and piloting out a win is pointless to prove anything in terms of the standing within the Legacy metagame

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Playing against a known opponent while knowing his deck and adjusting the board according to that and piloting out a win is pointless to prove anything in terms of the standing within the Legacy metagame

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That goes for both of them and not only for Carsten. I will ask him if they have more video coverage with actual gameplay or if he can at least write down a small report.

As some people have asked me via PM if Golgari Charm is now main deck material as a one-off, I want to discuss this with you:

It is true that Golgari Charm is really good in the most recent meta game and that it is a blowout versus Elves, DnT and most importantly all sorts of Nemesis decks. But the card is blank versus combo - destroying a Sneak Attack is a bit random and does not happen versus a good combo player. It is not that well against RUG Delver, the bUrg mirror and midrange decks like Jund/Shardless Agent.

So for me Charm stays a sideboard card.

The discussion is now open :)

Hi,
for me the charm is a sideboard-card too. I don´t know what to cut in the Mainboard. And I think you are right, for a Mainboardcard the Golgari-Charm is in some Matchup´s random or needless.

I want to discuss what´s the best way to handle True Name Nemesis.
One way can be to hit the TNN with the Golgari Charm. But I think an opponent controled Nemesis is not a Problem for sure. The Problem is an equpped TNN! So isn´t it better to handle the Equipments with something like Ancient Grudge, Krosan Grip and/or Smash to Smithereens?

Greetings

Moe

That is True. TNN can be attacked from different angles:

- Stack (REB, Daze, FoW)
- Battlefield (Charm)
- Eqioment Removal (Snare, Grudge, Decays).

Oh wait, we happen to run all this kind of stuff. bUrg has a great matchup versus TNN decks. Hope people will realize that soon :-)

An update to the somehow disappointing mtgmadness video between Carsten and Michael Bonde:

Carsten will try to get the raw video material from mtgmadness and provide the whole 3 matches in full length. Keep your fingers crossed that mtgmadness cooperates :-)

I tested a ton of games against danyul playing Elves last night so wanted to share the plan I came up with.

First, my decklist has 2 probe, 2 pierce (I think its more versatile in a meta with S&T and lots of removal spells like right now), 3 Geese, 2 Goyf. Sb has a Cage (much better against dredge and Elves, although spellbomb is good aginst thresh), only 1 Fire Covenant (might change, that card is so good), 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Envelop (so sick right now), 1 Clique, and the usual suspects.

I tried taking out all the Dazes since it's blank after their turn 2, but on the play it's live for a couple turns. The best plan I found was this:
- 2 Pierce, 2 Probe, 3 Goose, 3ish Daze
+ 1 or 2 FS, 1 Envelop, 2 Charm, 3 submerge, 1 Cage, 1 Clique, 1 FC

Elves looks like a creature deck but it relies really hard on its 12 spells. FS is a strict upgrade unless they're playing Thorn. Cage is virtually unbeatable unless they draw Decay - so be sure to keep them off Visionary + Symbiote! Overall I feel favored as long as I draw a wrath or Cage early AND THEN close quickly or draw another. Elves rebuilds quickly and is not a pushover. Stifle is also really good against the 9 fetch, 14 (real) land deck and sometimes can be relevant against Hoof (although you're probably losing to a 5/5 haste).

Edit: completely forgot to mention my main point for discussion- cutting Goose against Elves and other combo. Elves gums up the ground too much, and against them and other combo I feel like it's too slow. I'm fine with 10 threats if we're positioning to be the control. Thoughts?

Thanks for sharing your results. I agree with you.

My boarding plan in the primer is:

//Elves:
//- 4 Daze - 2 Mongeese-1 Izzet Charm + 3 Submerge+2 Fire Covenant + 2 Golgari Charm

As my sideboard has Nihil Spellbomb for having an edge against RUG Delver I do not have a cage there. But Cage is fantastic versus Elves.

I do not board in Flusterstorm due to my Probe/Spell Pierce-less list. Having 4 Forces of Will seems better than Flusterstorm.

But if you have Probes and Pierces to board out, you absolutely need to bring in Flusterstorms.

I would not leave in the one-off Daze as it is too random. As I have 2 Fire Covenants and 2 Golgari Charms in the SB all Dazes must go ;)

As you see I nearly completely agree with you. Carsten told me years ago that you can go down to 9 creatures versus combo and since then playing against combo feels good. I only let the fast and not clunky creatures stay in (4 Delver, 3 Shaman and 1 Clique and only 1 Mongoose).

The other point - cutting Snares for Pierces and Probes - is not advised by me. But as stated in the Primer the 2 Probe/2 Pierce split is totally fine if you like it. I will stay at my 3 Snare/1 Izzet split.

Countering Stoneforge is a game-changer versus TNN decks. I hate losing to Goyfs and two Decays main deck will not do it in game 1 versus 4 opposing Goyfs. If you play 2 Goyfs in bUrg then the math comes up again :-P But as I am running a Goyf-less built now I desperately need Snares. You see that some small changes to one area of the deck can have effects to the overall built :)

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Originally Posted by Sasan

Thanks for sharing your results. I agree with you.

My boarding plan in the primer is:

//Elves:
//- 4 Daze - 2 Mongeese-1 Izzet Charm + 3 Submerge+2 Fire Covenant + 2 Golgari Charm

As my sideboard has Nihil Spellbomb for having an edge against RUG Delver I do not have a cage there. But Cage is fantastic versus Elves.

I do not board in Flusterstorm due to my Probe/Spell Pierce-less list. Having 4 Forces of Will seems better than Flusterstorm.

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I'm not sure what you mean with regard to Force of Will. Of course I have 4.

Spellbomb just doesn't seem like it's better than Cage. Against Thresh it does shrink their Geese and possibly Goyf, but that's Deathrite Shaman's job (if he sticks around - going back to why I favor Pierce). Against ANT, Spellbomb is better, but not by much and that matchup is already positive. Maverick I think is a wash - both have some relevance, but I'm not sure if you'd board in either.
Cage is better against Dredge and Elves. Against random stuff, Spellbomb and Cage each have their uses.

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Originally Posted by Sasan

I would not leave in the one-off Daze as it is too random. As I have 2 Fire Covenants and 2 Golgari Charms in the SB all Dazes must go ;)

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You're right, it's random, but I love mind games like that, especially against good players. Good, experienced players know that you'll tend to board out Dazes, so their value goes up, especially game 2. If you can get them with a Daze game 2, they'll tend to play around it game 3.

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Originally Posted by Sasan

As you see I nearly completely agree with you. Carsten told me years ago that you can go down to 9 creatures versus combo and since then playing against combo feels good. I only let the fast and not clunky creatures stay in (4 Delver, 3 Shaman and 1 Clique and only 1 Mongoose).

The other point - cutting Snares for Pierces and Probes - is not advised by me. But as stated in the Primer the 2 Probe/2 Pierce split is totally fine if you like it. I will stay at my 3 Snare/1 Izzet split.

Countering Stoneforge is a game-changer versus TNN decks. I hate losing to Goyfs and two Decays main deck will not do it in game 1 versus 4 opposing Goyfs. If you play 2 Goyfs in bUrg then the math comes up again :-P But as I am running a Goyf-less built now I desperately need Snares. You see that some small changes to one area of the deck can have effects to the overall built :)

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Good to see we're on the same page with boarding against combo.

I'd like to test Izzet Charm, although I'm pretty dubious that it's worth the cost. I feel like 3 Submerge + Decay is enough against Goyf decks and Grudge + Stifle is enough versus Stoneforge decks, but definitely could see how Snare is clutch. I love Snare, just not in a meta where I have to expect S&T.

What is the most up to date mana base for the 2 tarmogoyf and 2 tnn lists. The taiga seems out of place.

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Originally Posted by kingsey

What is the most up to date mana base for the 2 tarmogoyf and 2 tnn lists. The taiga seems out of place.

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the taiga is a bit awkward but you to keep in mind you want to cast abrupt decay and RUG decks will aggressively go after your tropicals.

you have 3 options.

(badlands option)
7 fetches (deltas and tarns)
2 volcanic
2 tropical
2 sea
1 badlands

(6 fetch option)
3 sea
2 trop
2 golf
1 taiga
6 fetches (misty and tarns)

If you want to run only blue duals

3 sea
3 trop
2 volc
6 fetches

I'm on the second option right now, but may try option 1 or 3 tomorrow.

I'm going to try the all blue dual route.

Are u still happy with tnn ? What's your current list still the same as a few pages back tormod?

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Originally Posted by kingsey

I'm going to try the all blue dual route.

Are u still happy with tnn ? What's your current list still the same as a few pages back tormod?

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yup

pages 26 is my most recent list.

Of the things I'm noticing is that the deck could use 1 more artifact hate in the sb.

im considering pulling cage for a rakdos charm so I can keep 5th graveyard hate and add a other artifact kill for all the extra batterskulls kicking around.

the list has been very good for me.

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Originally Posted by Tormod

the taiga is a bit awkward but you to keep in mind you want to cast abrupt decay and RUG decks will aggressively go after your tropicals.

you have 3 options...

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I've been using a fourth option that I've been really happy with, which I think was discussed a few pages back, using 8 fetches:

8 Fetch (Tarn/Rainforest)
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga

I personally dislike the Volcanic Island more than I dislike the Taiga, because it doesn't help me cast Abrupt Decay, but I still think it's overall worth having in there. I'd tried using a Badlands in its place but that was much worse for me. I think the three options you listed are all great, but I also wanted to mention the one that's been working best for me, in my build and meta.

On a slightly different topic, this past weekend at our local weekly Legacy I tried out a tweak of your "HeisenbUrg" list and I really liked it; thanks for sharing! I don't own any True-Name Nemesis, and don't feel like picking them up right now, so I ran it with a couple of Vendilion Clique in their place because I simply like the card, along with its ability to both race an opposing unequipped TNN and to keep it unequipped if he tries to Stoneforge something up. We also have a good amount of combo decks locally that couldn't care less about TNN, but do not like to see a Clique suddenly appear on the my side of the table. Here's the full list, which I took to a 1/2 split finish across 4 rounds of 13 players (we usually have closer to 20 people, but Thanksgiving meant a lot of folks were out of town):

// Creatures (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique

// Spells (30)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce

// Land (18)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Taiga
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

// Sideboard (15)
3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
3 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Fire Covenant
1 Grafdigger's Cage

I swapped out the third Spell Pierce so I could get the fourth Stifle back in, because I am a jerk who likes making people feel bad for trying to do things with their permanents (and the occasional Storm trigger). :wink: I think I'm quite pleased with the counterspell package, and had a couple of opponents audibly irritated by how much control I was managing to run. The fourth Deathrite Shaman felt really nice, both as a mana source and as a win condition, and I did not miss Nimble Mongoose one bit, so I think this is gonna be my go-to list for a while. :smile:

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Originally Posted by Tormod

you have 3 options.

(badlands option)
7 fetches (deltas and tarns)
2 volcanic
2 tropical
2 sea
1 badlands

(6 fetch option)
3 sea
2 trop
2 golf
1 taiga
6 fetches (misty and tarns)

If you want to run only blue duals

3 sea
3 trop
2 volc
6 fetches

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There is an extra option wich is what i play currently:
2 Trop
2 Volc
2 Sea
1 Taiga
7 fetches

I am very happy with this. I never feel the lack of the 3rd Sea and play less than 7 fetches expose us too easily to color death when Wasteland hit our manabase.

ps: I am new on TS and my english is far of perfection. Please be indulgent.