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Have you seen his list? Of course he hates playing vs RGCL. Nothing what he has to say about bannings is to be taken seriously (well, maybe Top), except slowplaying being extremely irritating.Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
Nope, but this deck hasn't been under the radar for quiet some time now :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
I had a really hard time taking Shaheen Soorani's article seriously. His bias shows through quite clearly, and while I have no comments on top, I do have some comments about P firing someone to death when loam or depths has been extracted or is otherwise not a valid game plan.
While it takes many turns to actually close out a game with P fire, the amount of time it takes every turn to shortcut a p fire to the face then rebuy and cast again is probably 1 second once the loop has been established with your opponent.
What takes way more time is this scenario, which always seems to come up for me: Opponent draws a card, stares blankly at it for 5 seconds, Looks through my GY, flips through their cards for 5 more seconds, asks how many cards in hand, Looks through my GY again (they forgot), tanks for 5 seconds more, looks through their own GY (no, you have no more outs in your deck), frantically click their pen 20 times, Move their hat brim from the back to the side, then to the back, then take it off then put it on brim facing forward, sort out their lands perfectly like an obsessive compulsive (I try not to leave them many lands for this reason), then pass the turn where it takes me one second to shortcut through some P fires to the face. On my turn I take 3 seconds to untap draw, pass. Then they have to tank again in your end step, draw a card and look at it for 5 seconds, take a short nap, look through a trash can, sort their laundry, file their taxes etc etc.
P fire doesn't take very long at all to kill, it just gives your opponent a bunch of turns to sit around and look bored and act like an obsessive compulsive when they should just concede the game.
Defense vs Moon is the only benefit I can think to a 4-2 split over a 3-3 split. I do think its potentially relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE
Damn! Better start saving...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
This right here is something that people don't seem to understand. I've played two Legacy decks in major tournaments, Miracles and Lands. I know that both can be very slow to win and are both difficult to pilot and to play against. Almost every single time my matches would go to time is due to the opponent being in a position where I've got the game locked down and they need to play carefully to keep their chance of winning from slipping away.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dingo
Conversely it's a skill to know when to scoop because you can't win and you may need as much time in order to win the next two games. I haven't gotten comfortable calling a judge over because my opponent is slow playing, though usually by the time they do this we're one of the last matches and a judge wonders over and watches anyway and does a good job keeping the pace steady.
Regarding Fetch in case of Blood Moon: It will be relevant, not potentially relevant. If this deck keeps performing like it does now, you can be sure Blood Moon will be played in higher numbers. Thing is that Tabernacle keeps us in check, so maybe dedicating slots to a 'maybe to encounter MU' will keep those numbers low enough. Still, I don't play that often, and people start remembering me as 'that guy on RGCL'.
With such a high percentage of wins there will be time that people will dedicate one or two slots in their SB.
Given how greedy people are being with their mana bases (why do you think we all do so well?) I would expect the red decks that can tolerate their own Blood Moon to play it for broader hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
On Soorani's article:
While, like others, I don't take seriously the idea that Punishing Fire or Depths will be banned (since after all these two cards see play only in Lands and a smattering of other decks, none of which has a large enough share of the meta to warrant a banning), I am rather irritated by Soorani's notion that slow play is especially a problem in regards to Lands. While watching Soorani play Ayers in the semifinals (not live, mind you), I couldn't help but notice that Soorani took much more time to think than did Ayers and that Soorani's deck has way more durdling cards built into it than does Ayers'. Ayers and Long have significantly shifted their decks towards generating the combo has fast as possible by maindecking the fourth copy of Depths, while Soorani's deck sports five one-mana cantrips, two Digs, and three Jaces, all of which encourage a player to take lengthy, complicated turns. If anything, I think Soorani's match against Ayers stands as evidence of the time sink inherent in playing blue-based decks, and if arguments for bannings on the basis of slow play were even valid, then we'd be banning a swath of blue cards including Brainstorm and Dig.
I think the decks that can run Moon already do run Moon. Moon is like Chalice - they hose almost every deck in the format, but do to their symmetric nature almost every deck can't actually run them!
So this is my first post but hopefully can contribute something to this thread and the discussion about lands in general. I placed 19th at the scg open in DC with what I think is a pretty solid list. At the end of the day I was 11-4 with losses to mono red stomp, infect, shardles bug, and my friend who top 8 on reanimator. My victories were to infect, mana dredge, Omni tell, Stoneblade, several iterations of rug, grixis, and 4c Delver. Here is the list I ran.
4 Grove of the burnwilllows
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland
4 thespian stage
3 dark depths
3 foot hills
2 Maze of ith
2 taiga
1 Forest
1 tranquil thicket
1 karakas
1 Glacial chasm
1 Bojuka bog
1 Ghostquarter
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
4 exploration
2 mana bond
4 mox diamond
4 crop rotation
4 life from the loam
4 gamble
4 punishing fire
1 zuran orb
SB
*
2 ashen rider
4 Trinisphere
2 choke
1 boseiju who shelters all
1 Chalice of the void
4 krosan grip
1 Pithing needle
Things that I will be changing is I am going up a Maze of ith and most likely putting the Bojuka and karakas in the board.
If anyone has any comments or questions they are welcome.
That guy does not deserve the attention he gets. If he would be an employee of WotC, he would have singlehandedly killed a whole format. And for what? His personal gain. F**k him. My apologies, but I finally found a deck I like without blue! Killing some one with PF isn't slowplaying, it's winning. A good played will concede when he/ she has no lands in play, and Punishing-Grove is online: on to the next game, hopefully better luck this time.Quote:
Originally Posted by gigapatrick
I agree with you that Blue cantrips are more time consuming, unfortunately Soorani is a Blue mage and will never admit this.
EDIT: welcome Croprot! And congrats!
So i encountered several people who were not happy to play against lands at the scg open, one of them even chided "well i guess im going to time this round" after realizing the deck i was on. that game in particular i killed him on turn three. I think with the trend towards a faster combo deck with controlling elements that RG lands is going towards this criticism will soon be laughed at as people start scooping on turn two to a 20/20 more regularly. the longest round i played at the open was against an omni tell player simply because he wasnt aware of how trinisphere worked through omniscience. 3 turns after the judge ruling he scooped. not once did my games go to time nor did i not have time to use the restroom after finishing a round.Quote:
Originally Posted by gigapatrick
Just to add on the slow play train: I Have played a 3 match game against miracles many times where we both agreed that we would hurry up and not go to time. This includes many game 3's played in less than 5 minutes, with both players making an effort to not draw.
Be respectful and if you are locked under a jace and time is called, extend your hand and scoop. If a lands player has the game locked down and just can't find the kill, people need to have a little more sportsmanship and just call the game. It really just involves being a good winner and a gracious loser.
How did you like Zuran Orb? It seems kind of weak since you can't tutor or recur it like the blue version. Was Ashen Rider playable?Quote:
Originally Posted by Croprot
I'm surprised you lost to Shardless Sultai! How did you lose that one? They have such a greedy manabase.
I play Karakas and Bojuka Bog in the main and I'm quite happy with them. Bog gives extra outs to Reanimator and makes Dredge winnable and also makes Temur Delver more even. Karakas means never losing to Death & Taxes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
Zuran orb was sided out a lot so its getting cut from the build. i was worried about burn being big and not wanting to rely solely on my chasm to save the day. im thinking of putting seismic assault somewhere to deal with the blood moon matchup but thats still in the development stages.
Ashen rider has exactly 2 matchups that it comes in for. sneak and show and omni tell. one of the wins against the omnitell player was almost textbook in terms of the theory behind it. my opponent looks at my hand with probe and just goes straight for the throat with a turn to show and tell which i put a trinisphere in he puts omniscience. this locks him out. i go waste land on his city of traitors and then krosan grip on my turn. he eventually reassembles and puts emrakul in with the show and tell which is met by ashen rider. i think for this matchup if there is a single permanent to put in from the lands side that isnt trinisphere or choke i think ashen rider just does everything you want. it must be asnwered as it is a 4 turn clock and if they attack with emrakul it dies to annihilator and kills emrakul before damage. i like the card a lot but im not sure that its completely necessary yet. if anyone else has tested with it i would like to know there experience as mine has been nothing but positive in that matchup.
My match with reanimator was very one sided as i predicted it would be. karakas doesnt seem as good as bog in my opinion as we just cant answer tidespout tyrant. i was killed with grave titan two games in a row as i couldnt get tabernacle into play. also the bojuka bog was barely useful in the mana dredge match in round 15. i would have liked more chalice of the voids in my board as that was very useful in game two even though i lost. i tested with my friend after the event more and that card is very good with trinisphere and choke which are both rock stars.
i lost to mike braverman, i dropped turn 2 sphere into turn 3 choke both game 2 and 3 with wasteland hate after losing game one. game one loss was my fault as i kept a relatively loose hand and he was well equipped with deathrite and counter magic. game three the reason i lost was he stuck a goyf that i never found a maze of ith to try and match. goyf killed me over the course of 10 turns. just couldnt stabalize.
something else i would like to know is how you feal about being on 0 sphere of resistance in lieu of 4x trini and 2 chalice.
I play 2 Trinisphere, 2 Chalice of the Void and 3 Sphere of Resistance (this might go back up to 4 before Champs - not sure yet).Quote:
Originally Posted by Croprot
I think Sphere of Resistance is better than Trinisphere but not for every matchup.
I only want Spheres for combo matchups but 3balls for Miracles, Omni, and other decks which are short on lands.
thats fair. i dont think i really need the ashen riders to be honest. they were a knee jerk reaction to how overwhelmingly helpless we are game one against omni tell. currently the board im working with isQuote:
Originally Posted by barcode
1 boseiju
4 k grip
3 trini
2 chalice
3 sphere
2 choke
the choke may come out of the board if i find the riders are necessary or perhaps iona.
Hey All, this weekend I'm going to be playing in as many Legacy side-events as humanly possible during GP London. Since I built my deck, the meta has changed, so in preparation I've been updating my 75 so its hopefully slightly better positioned vs an unknown meta.
Its super stock, but inexperience is getting the better of me, so am hoping for seasoned vets to tell me its alright :)
Does it make sense to board in Emrakul vs Omni-Tell? If so, if/when my opponent goes for a Release the Ants win, do I clash till I top deck Emrakul, and hope I can make a Witch during their end-step?Code:4 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
4 Punishing Fire
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Choke
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Krosan Grip
4 Trinisphere
Option wise, I have available:
I'm hoping to be able to take detailed enough notes, so with any luck I'll be posting a wall of text in a few days time :)Code:4 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Zuran Orb
2 Worm Harvest
Emrakul was added to Longs SB for the Painter MU, I doubt there will be much of that at the GP side events to be honest, it's probably not worth the SB slot. I can't imagine it's worth bringing Emrakul in the hope to win the clash with Omni either. Even if you did strike lucky and get it, you'd better still be able to win on your following turn as they're going to draw that Emrakul (assuming they can't draw it after failing the clash) and hit you in the face. Since you'll be spending resources (I imagine) on Porting them, the chances of you having the combo ready to go is slim.Quote:
Originally Posted by horrain
I'll be playing in the side events too, but not with lands. I have no idea what people will be on though, I'm planning to just play a bunch of janky Nic Fit decks probably, it'll be quite unpredictable! I'd suggest something like this, but I'm not an expert on the deck.
4 Krosan Grip
3 Trinisphere
3 Choke
1 Worm Harvest
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Boseiju
1 Bojuka Bog
I've never liked the emrakul vs Omni tell. It is clunky and doesn't do anything if you don't have a sphere in play first. If you are looking for a beater I'd recommend either ashen rider or iona. Both do immediate damage and iona doesn't need a sphere effect. The only time you want ashen rider over any of them is when you have a sphere so they cant trick bind you. Both of them also race pyromancer very well.Quote:
Originally Posted by horrain
The problem with all these 'hidden tricks' is they run a set of Gitaxian Probe. Any good Omni player will know to probe first.