[Deck] 43 Lands

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Originally Posted by mchainmail

Have you played the combo matchup???????????????????????????

You go 50-50 game 2, after boarding in 2 sphere of resistance and 4 chalice of the void. Let alone what happens game 3 when they're on the play.

You simply don't have the clock or lock pieces to make the game close, and devoting chalices to the combo matchup feels like a horrid waste of sideboard space.

Why is Mindslaver in the sideboard? Firespout?

Crucible absolutely does NOT belong maindeck. It beats the hate, yes. And beating hate game 1 is wasted space.

Post your maindeck too; sideboarded singletons depend on the maindeck a lot.

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I saw this coming, as I was typing my post when you were as well. This is My Philosophy:

You go 80/20 against zoo, 70/30 against Goblins, 90/20 against merfolk, 20/80 against combo, actually these statistics were just made up. ANT is not a giant deck now (still around). Philosophy lesson is I'd rather have the "Guaranteed win" against the 95 % of decks, and lose the combo matchup. Kinda sounds like I give up, but I have faith that after my 3 byes at the GP, it will be all tier 1 decks at that point.. lol

SI is a terrible deck, for reasons I don't even know, and with belcher, I'm gambling that 4/60 cards I die, and 7/60 cards Tabernacle/firespout can deal with, and If they dont have it in time, Chasm takes care of that, but that'll probably never happen...

Mind slaver is good against 50% of decks and Mind slaver is Bad against 50% of decks.. Id rather not see it against goblins, zoo, Combo, Even Merfolk and Reanimator. It is good against such decks as Bant Variants, and Tier 2 decks (stacks, Lands, Stompy, etc.)

Firespout Seals the Deal against Z/G/M, as it helps against Mage, Bant Survival, warrens tokens, and any pesky mass creatures that race you, even Magus. Id rather have spout to be honest, because when the deck emerged, it had 4 clasms originally, and they were there for a reason :smile:

Crucible is good, as it acts as a totally different strategy, and If you don't see loam its really good, and if you do, its really amazing as well.. Im sold it belongs in the main deck, it hasn't failed me yet. I play in Ohio, which is one of the most competitive legacy regions of the US, and Nobody plays bad decks, they're all tier 1/2, and we test like crazy, and Crucible puts out results. I never side it out, because it just belongs there :tongue:.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

It seems to me that the new leyline of sanctity is a much better sideboard card than chalice (well, maybe you want 1 chalice still, but different story). It stops the reach that zoo has, until they get removal for the leyline. Additionally it prevents combo from going anything but the empty the warrens route or finding hate. Tabernacle slows them down a lot, and with the mana denial lands has you can make it hard for them to actually play their hate. Additionally, it shuts down their duresses. Likewise, it's also useful against walkers like Jace, since he won't be able to target you until the leyline is removed. It also shuts down crypt, wheel, bojuka bog, relic's tap ability, and ravenous trap as GY hate. Pretty much everything but relic. There's a little trouble reaching WW if you want to hardcast it, so if that was a concern it might want to be addressed, but the leyline seems to do a lot more than chalice in my opinion. The main downside is you can't tolaria west for it, but if that was very relevant it'd still be very easy to run 1.

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There are like 3-4 different variants of lands... Maybe in the White version this may work (though I doubt it), you have to have it in your opening hand, or its dead (Double white is rough).

The main problem with Leyline is that this deck has no way of finding it when it's not in your opening hand except for Intuition targeting triple Leyline, which seems extremely slow.

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Originally Posted by OneBigSquirrelGod

I saw this coming, as I was typing my post when you were as well. This is My Philosophy:

You go 80/20 against zoo, 70/30 against Goblins, 90/20 against merfolk, 20/80 against combo, actually these statistics were just made up. ANT is not a giant deck now (still around). Philosophy lesson is I'd rather have the "Guaranteed win" against the 95 % of decks, and lose the combo matchup. Kinda sounds like I give up, but I have faith that after my 3 byes at the GP, it will be all tier 1 decks at that point.. lol

SI is a terrible deck, for reasons I don't even know, and with belcher, I'm gambling that 4/60 cards I die, and 7/60 cards Tabernacle/firespout can deal with, and If they dont have it in time, Chasm takes care of that, but that'll probably never happen...

Mind slaver is good against 50% of decks and Mind slaver is Bad against 50% of decks.. Id rather not see it against goblins, zoo, Combo, Even Merfolk and Reanimator. It is good against such decks as Bant Variants, and Tier 2 decks (stacks, Lands, Stompy, etc.)

Firespout Seals the Deal against Z/G/M, as it helps against Mage, Bant Survival, warrens tokens, and any pesky mass creatures that race you, even Magus. Id rather have spout to be honest, because when the deck emerged, it had 4 clasms originally, and they were there for a reason :smile:

Crucible is good, as it acts as a totally different strategy, and If you don't see loam its really good, and if you do, its really amazing as well.. Im sold it belongs in the main deck, it hasn't failed me yet. I play in Ohio, which is one of the most competitive legacy regions of the US, and Nobody plays bad decks, they're all tier 1/2, and we test like crazy, and Crucible puts out results. I never side it out, because it just belongs there :tongue:.

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How do you beat Goblins without slaver? Eventually you chasm-lock, but they're going to have a better card advantage engine than you.

I wasn't saying Firespout is bad, just that it is unique. I'd love to see board plans when you're bringing in Spout, because finding stuff to take out looks like an issue.

Eastern PA is just about as competitive as Ohio, with multiple major tournaments each month.


Valtrix: Leyline of Sanctity does seem good against combo, yes. I don't think you want it against Zoo though; taking out 4 business lands for 4 otherwise dead cards is poor, and you win or lose the match on Zuran Orb.

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Originally Posted by OneBigSquirrelGod

There are like 3-4 different variants of lands... Maybe in the White version this may work (though I doubt it), you have to have it in your opening hand, or its dead (Double white is rough).

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I agree that :w::w: is rough. That was one of the concerns that I mentioned about the card, but it seems to help out in so many place to probably make up for it. This could be fixed by adding a riftsone portal to the deck, which may not be desirable. Adding a single savannah or something is likewise not that great, since you'd need to have the mox diamond to get the second :w:. Two white sources might not be desirable, but I think a white source + vesuva would work well enough to get your :w::w:, in combination with the mox diamonds.

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Originally Posted by iostream

The main problem with Leyline is that this deck has no way of finding it when it's not in your opening hand except for Intuition targeting triple Leyline, which seems extremely slow.

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That's true. But I feel like anything else you could find at 0cc could still be run as a 1-of to find with tolaria west. In that case you get the advantage of being able to tutor for the card that helps, but additionally have a much better card if it's in your opening.

That said, I'm not entirely sure how it would be fit in, but it definitely seems like a very strong card, and doesn't seem that it would actually be all that difficult to fit into the deck.

EDIT: Indeed you need to take out business lands, but on the other hand you also protect yourself from all of their reach and likely all the GY hate they bring in against you until they can deal with the leyline, so losing some business lands doesn't seem too much of a detriment. You're already well equipped to deal with all of their creatures, and if they have to use a pridemage on your leyline, that deals with a creature and still buys you a lot of tempo I think. Getting multiples makes it even harder for them to win.

Chalice@1 simply destroys any tempo deck. While we still have enjoy a great matchup against those decks it gets even better after sideboarding. It also works great against Dreadstill which is by far the most played deck in southern Germany. Yeah, there might be slightly better sb cards than Chalice when it comes to combo but its versatility definitly justifies a playset in the sb.

Also, Smokestack is really way better than Mindslaver in 80% of the matchups. I recently played Mindslaver in 3 tournaments but randomly actually activated it. After all the main point of running Mindslaver is not powerlevel but time constraints. With that in mind I still favor Smokestack by a lot.

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Originally Posted by mchainmail

How do you beat Goblins without slaver? Eventually you chasm-lock, but they're going to have a better card advantage engine than you.

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WTF?! Are you trying to troll us?! Mindslaver might be the first card I would side out against Goblins as it's way to slow and once it actually makes an impact you're going to win anyway. Smokestack is much better, although not great as they might have some stuff to sac to it as well. Still, Mindslaver, really? Na, too slow. And dude, Goblins definitly doesn't have a better card advantage engine than lands. Goblins is definitly harder to beat than Merfolk because they're faster but still a favorable matchup.

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Originally Posted by mchainmail

How do you beat Goblins without slaver? Eventually you chasm-lock, but they're going to have a better card advantage engine than you.

I wasn't saying Firespout is bad, just that it is unique. I'd love to see board plans when you're bringing in Spout, because finding stuff to take out looks like an issue.

Eastern PA is just about as competitive as Ohio, with multiple major tournaments each month.


Valtrix: Leyline of Sanctity does seem good against combo, yes. I don't think you want it against Zoo though; taking out 4 business lands for 4 otherwise dead cards is poor, and you win or lose the match on Zuran Orb.

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Honestly, the Game breaker against the goblin player is Ghost Quarter in the long run... You just runnem outta basics.

I know Firespout isnt bad, its actually really good. Issues Arise when you put anything in the deck... zoo is the tough call, because there are a few variants around, so it slightly changes. Some stopped running Lavamancer, so Barb ring is kind of a waste as a spot in some cases, thatll come out, along with karakas, Crucible, and Usually a fetch... but if Ring is needed, It changes up a little... its all circumstantial...

You can still snipe Pridemage, Kird Ape and Nacatl even without an Exploration. I'd definitly keep it in the maindeck against Zoo. As well as Gaddock Teeg, if they bring it which would otherwise shutdown EE, Smokestack and/or Mindslaver. Agreed on the Crucible and Karakas (which starts out in the board anyways).

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Chalice@1 simply destroys any tempo deck. While we still have enjoy a great matchup against those decks it gets even better after sideboarding. It also works great against Dreadstill which is by far the most played deck in southern Germany. Yeah, there might be slightly better sb cards than Chalice when it comes to combo but its versatility definitly justifies a playset in the sb.

Also, Smokestack is really way better than Mindslaver in 80% of the matchups. I recently played Mindslaver in 3 tournaments but randomly actually activated it. After all the main point of running Mindslaver is not powerlevel but time constraints. With that in mind I still favor Smokestack by a lot.



WTF?! Are you trying to troll us?! Mindslaver might be the first card I would side out against Goblins as it's way to slow and once it actually makes an impact you're going to win anyway. Smokestack is much better, although not great as they might have some stuff to sac to it as well. Still, Mindslaver, really? Na, too slow. And dude, Goblins definitly doesn't have a better card advantage engine than lands. Goblins is definitly harder to beat than Merfolk because they're faster but still a favorable matchup.

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Dreadstill? What year is it over there, 2008? You shouldnt lose to Dreadstill with lands.... ever.... Maze, Wastes, Ports, Mazes', EE, more manlands. That is actually one of the Blue Control decks I would not side Slaver in against. And with testing, Merfolk is a little harder to beat tha goblins, considering Kira, Islandwalk, B2B, and countermagic (I'm not trolling you either...)

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Originally Posted by OneBigSquirrelGod

Honestly, the Game breaker against the goblin player is Ghost Quarter in the long run... You just runnem outta basics.

I know Firespout isnt bad, its actually really good. Issues Arise when you put anything in the deck... zoo is the tough call, because there are a few variants around, so it slightly changes. Some stopped running Lavamancer, so Barb ring is kind of a waste as a spot in some cases, thatll come out, along with karakas, Crucible, and Usually a fetch... but if Ring is needed, It changes up a little... its all circumstantial...

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I haven't played against a good goblins player yet, so my lack of experience may be at fault.

I'm really reluctant to take slaver out of the maindeck, mostly because it prompts concessions. A player will see Smokestack at 3 while you have Manabond out, and think "I can still win this" Against slaver-lock, most opponents just scoop. (Game 1)

Firespout is certainly interesting, but is it better than wasteland and ghost quarter recursion, chasm-lock and tabernacle? I don't know how much board help you need with Zoo. (Although Kira is really bad for us from Merfolk.

You will usually set Smokestack to just 1 (sometimes 2). if your opponent doesn't surrender you just attack with 2-3 Factories and the game should be over inbetween 3-4 minutes. If you're opponent doesn't scoop to Smokestack@2 chances are he also won't scoop to Mindslaver as he is trying to stall for some reason (either being 1-0 in the lead or opting for a draw anyways).

Thank to all of you who has made some comments to the questions I had.

To mchainmail and others who run the stack/crucible suite in the board: what do you think of Enlightened Tutor as an additional means of tutoring post-board? Introducing stack and crucible significantly increases the number of artifacts you can't find with Tolaria West - ET solves this problem. It also softens the impact of an Extirpate targeting Loam as well as helping you find a manabond or exploration if needed.

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Originally Posted by iostream

To mchainmail and others who run the stack/crucible suite in the board: what do you think of Enlightened Tutor as an additional means of tutoring post-board? Introducing stack and crucible significantly increases the number of artifacts you can't find with Tolaria West - ET solves this problem. It also softens the impact of an Extirpate targeting Loam as well as helping you find a manabond or exploration if needed.

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E-Tutor seems alright, but the biggest reason to run the artifacts isn't what they do together; it's that either one is downright gamebreaking. We are the singular best deck in the format under smokestack (except stax when they have crucible as well)

If you have loam-manabond, you can keep stax at 3.

E-Tutor does seem to help consistency though, especially as I oftentimes board out Manabond. It also works well with singleton SB cards like needle.

I'm going to test it out a little... I need to find foils before I run them in an event though.

Alright, Ive been playing Lands as much as possible lately, unfortunately I don't have much for real legacy in my area. What I really want to know is how much combo hate are people going to bring with their Lands! to Columbus. I'm pretty sure I'm going to simply write off combo, possibly playing 1 Chalice as an answer to Extirpate, though Crucible might be just as good or better. I love the white leyline, but with the damage done to storm combo I don't expect it in large numbers. That being said its hard to fill a board with out combo hate because there are a couple cards that answer almost every problem: Namely K Grip. My board at the moment, for a pretty standard Blue Lands list is going to start with:
3 Krosan Grip
1 Flame jab
2 Zuran Orb
1 Smoke Stack
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Karakas

That leaves me with 4 slots. I Could easily see 4 more combo hate slots (3 chalice, 1 white leyline?) or a mix of more general answers, or am i missing something all together?

Alright, Ive been playing Lands as much as possible lately, unfortunately I don't have much for real legacy in my area. What I really want to know is how much combo hate are people going to bring with their Lands! to Columbus. I'm pretty sure I'm going to simply write off combo, possibly playing 1 Chalice as an answer to Extirpate, though Crucible might be just as good or better. I love the white leyline, but with the damage done to storm combo I don't expect it in large numbers. That being said its hard to fill a board with out combo hate because there are a couple cards that answer almost every problem: Namely K Grip. My board at the moment, for a pretty standard Blue Lands list is going to start with:
3 Krosan Grip
1 Flame jab
2 Zuran Orb
1 Smoke Stack
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Karakas

That leaves me with 3 slots. I Could easily see 4 more combo hate slots (3 chalice) or a mix of more general answers, or am i missing something all together?

My current board:
3 Krosan Grip
2 Smokestack
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle of the Pendrell Vale
1 Academy Ruins


I really like my odds in control matchups, especially those that run counterbalance. If you resolve Intuition, you win. Easy as that. This is with a standard maindeck with Zuran Orb and Academy Ruins maindecked already.

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Originally Posted by betterthenandrew

That leaves me with 3 slots. I Could easily see 4 more combo hate slots (3 chalice) or a mix of more general answers, or am i missing something all together?

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Why is it that people keep insisting that chalice is only good against combo decks? I contend that Chalice is a general answer to many decks. For example:

- Chalice at 0, besides addressing cheese like SI, takes care of Tormod's Crypt
- Chalice at 1 addresses Extirpate and Pithing Needle, wrecks New Horizons by shutting down Brainstorm + Stifle + STP + Ponder, pre-empts Top, slows down nearly every elves variant out there to a manageable speed, among other things
- Chalice at 2 prevents Fish from playing most of their creatures, and takes care of many other irritating random cards like Goyf

These are just a few examples. The point is merely that every competitive Legacy deck has a peak in their mana curve somewhere between 0 and 2, so we set Chalice accordingly.

Yes, some of our spells get nerfed under Chalice as well. Yes, most decks will be packing enchantment/artifact hate in the SB. But it is better for us that they crack a Chalice than a Mox or an Exploration (which you're supposed to play before dropping Chalice...). And even if Chalice is active only for a turn or two, we gain precious time against decks that might otherwise outrace our lock post-SB.

Why it's not generally accepted to run this as a 4-of in the board is honestly a bit mysterious to me.

Sure, Chalice has more uses than just (Storm-)Combo (e.g. Burn), but some of the above seems just wrong.
You will never want to set Chalice at 2 (Loam) and you probably never bring in Chalices to fight Crypt/Relic (at least I never do). There are way too many things that have to go right for that to work (say you play Chalice 0 and they have Relics, not Crypts). Krosan Grip is a better answer here.

I used to set Chalice at 2 if I knew Price of Progress was running around. Though I used Crucibles to complement my Loams. It was just easier to run without the loams and not have to worry about price. Sure I could use Z orb, but when in a hurry to find it and you realize you can die to a single price soon, I'd drop it. I beat a heavy Anhk burn deck because I did that. After a Chalice at 1 and 2, I dropped one at 6 for Fireblast out of spite. lol

I didn't mind setting Chalices for Relic/Crypts. Just Tolaria West up two and set them on both numbers.