[Deck] CounterSliver 2.0 (MeatHooks.dec)

Here's the thing, Thresh actually has a significantly slower clock than this deck. Whereas Thresh doesn't even have creatures big enough to attack with till around Turn 3-4, and very few at that bc it spent most of that time playing cantrips, and even then creatures like Meddling Mage that you wouldn't want to attack with period if there's even one 2/1 on the field. By the time Thresh starts attacking, this deck can easily bring your opponent down to half their life.

If anything, Daze is relevant a good big larger percentage of this deck's average game than in Thresh. So why are you guys worry about how good it is in the late game. There shouldn't even be a late game and usually isn't if you're running FoW and Daze to protect your early threats.

Being able to protect your turn 2 Crystalline even without FoW is huge. Being able to protect your muscle sliver early on when you don't have a crystalline of FoW is huge. Just making your opponent wait an extra turn to do everything, to have a one sided Sphere of Resistence is huge. Daze in general makes sure your opponents life total falls very quickly.

I think the real debate is between Stifle and Counterspell. And I do think Counterspell wins that debate just because of it's increased versatitliy.

In most matchups, the only good Stifle targets are Fetchlands, which in the lategame is worse than Daze IMO. And in some matchups there aren't even many if any fetchlands to hit. Yes Stifle is gold against goblins, but I can't fathom why goblins would be such a hard matchup for you guys, seeing as how I do fine against it with Thresh running a lot fewer threats, and threats that are useless for anythng but trading with lackey for the first many turns, and threats that are generally smaller than these slivers are by turn 3-4.

Have you actually tested this deck? I have played both thresh and counterslivers for a long time, and I can assure you that thresh is faster. Unless your playing against a combo deck, then this deck can theoretically goldfish faster. But against the rest of the field ,i.e. aggro decks generally, you play the control role in almost all cases.

Doesn't anybody care about the opinions of people who have been developing and playing this deck for the last several months? We aren't speaking in theoretical terms. We are speaking from loads and loads of experience.

Daze is not very good in this deck. I have explained why on numerous occasions.

Stifle is great in this deck. It has been explained why on numerous occasions.

Counterspell is clunky for the first 3 or so turns. After that, it becomes very useful. That's not just the "late game." That's the "mid to late game."

The day that Sinew Sliver was spoiled was also the day I first proxied up this deck and started playing it, a build with 8 muscle slivers and 4 Plated Slivers. Many of the early builds of this deck even after Sinew Sliver was revealed ran 6 Muscle Slivers 2-3 Plateds, or cut green entirely if I recall. I have no doubt that you guys are right about Daze in builds not running 12 pump slivers.

But running 12 Pump slivers does let all your creatures attack with impunity and this does make this deck a lot more aggressive than Thresh. I do think that's reason enough to dredge back up the Daze vs Stifle vs Counterspell debate.

Or perhaps the best solution is to run 2-3 of each and see which you find to be the most valuble. Afterall, all three cards work far better when your opponent is surprised by them, or spends time playing around them even when you don't have them in hand.

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Originally Posted by Maverick676

But against the rest of the field ,i.e. aggro decks generally, you play the control role in almost all cases.

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I can't say I agree. The 12 pump sliver build of this deck plays the control role less than thresh does. Here, the threats are just about alway a tad bigger than other aggro decks, letting you attack without fear from turn 2 on. And the fact that this deck runs about 6 more creatures than Thresh is pretty big too. Many turns lets you attack with everything that can, while still having had a creature that you just cast to act as a blocker. In Thresh, it does take a few turns before you can start attacking without losing creatures, and even then Meddling Mage stays back, leaving you with only 10 aggressive creatures in the whole deck.

Edit: Sorry if that sounded crass. I was in a rush. I have nothing but respect for the people who made this deck what it is today. All I'm suggesting is that maybe, now that we do have 11-12 pump slivers, some of the previous foregone conclusions such as Eldarami's Call, Talon Sliver and Stifle over Daze should be reconsidered.

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All I'm suggesting is that maybe, now that we do have 11-12 pump slivers, some of the previous foregone conclusions such as Eldarami's Call, Talon Sliver and Stifle over Daze should be reconsidered.

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I would like to remind people that stifle is not run over daze. Counterspell is run over daze. Stifle is great in this deck whether it plays daze or counterspell, the card destroys goblins and ruins fetchlands plus has random other uses. If you're trying to play the aggro role with this deck you will need stifle against fetchlands to gain tempo, 3 daze just won't cut it.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

I can't say I agree. The 12 pump sliver build of this deck plays the control role less than thresh does. Here, the threats are just about alway a tad bigger than other aggro decks, letting you attack without fear from turn 2 on. And the fact that this deck runs about 6 more creatures than Thresh is pretty big too. Many turns lets you attack with everything that can, while still having had a creature that you just cast to act as a blocker. In Thresh, it does take a few turns before you can start attacking without losing creatures, and even then Meddling Mage stays back, leaving you with only 10 aggressive creatures in the whole deck.

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The version of Thresh with Mental Notes can potentially come at you very fast -- faster than slivers. It all depends on what kind of draw they get. If they get the "beatdown" draw, they can potentially be swinging at you for 6 points of damage on turn 3, 10 points of damage on turn 4, and 16 points of damage on turn 5.

The ability to run 8 muscle slivers makes this deck very consistent. However, it is still a bit slow compared to other aggro decks, and typically has to play defense for the first 2-4 turns. Sometimes you can't even effectively swing at your opponent until you draw a Winged Sliver, despite the fact that your critters may be bigger than his.

Both Stifle and Daze gain tempo. Daze effectively either neuters one of your opponent's worst threats, or acts as a one sided sphere of resistence when your opponent tries to play around it. Many times, it does both.

Daze protects your threats early on just as FoW would, something that Stifle simply doesn't do. I see Counterspell as a nice midgame card (a good 2x IMO) and Stifle and Daze competing for the early game tempo boost slot.

In all seriousness, has anyone tried a configuration running all 3 cards? All three cards are better when they are unexpected, or when played around when they aren't even in your hand. Running 2x copies of each increases the odds of both. I'm making that change as I type this. I'll post back how well it works once I get a chance to play it this weekend.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

How does Daze not gain tempo? Daze effectively either neuters one of your opponent's worst threats, or acts as a one sided sphere of resistence when your opponent tries to play around it. Often it does both.

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I've explained this ad nauseum. Dazing a land back to your hand in the first couple turns of the game is very bad for your own tempo. Kronicler hit it on the head a few posts back when he wrote the following:

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In the argument of Daze vs. Counterspell: I've been a huge fan of daze for a long time, and never a big fan of counterspell, but for this deck my views seem to have reversed. The addition of Sinew Sliver pushed the deck slightly more to the aggro side of aggro-control, and because of this the deck does not want to stunt its growth by picking up its own lands. One of the major differences between CounterSliver and Thresh is your ideal number of lands in play. Thresh is happy with 1 or 2, while counter sliver would much rather have 3 (lay a sliver each turn with stifle mana open) or 4 (lay a sliver and have counterspell mana open, or lay 2 slivers). These two things have really pushed me to the counterspell camp this time.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

In all seriousness, has anyone tried a configuration running all 3 cards? All three cards are better when they are unexpected, or when played around when they aren't even in your hand. Running 2x copies of each increases the odds of both.

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Yes. Early versions of this deck ran all three. It took us a while, but we eventually figured out that Daze wasn't helping the deck. EDIT: Also, I've been playtesting a UWgb build with 4 Dazes for the last couple of nights. I freaking hate Daze in this deck.

Myself, Pinder and Volt have thoroughly tested many different configurations of this deck, over the last several months. We have already stated the reasons for cutting daze.

Your agrument for daze is flawed. Daze does nothing to protect our early threats. Why? because they are untargetable. There is really no need to daze a creature, as you stated: our slivers are bigger than just about everything on the board, so you don't need to care about a creature they resolve since you can just run it over.

The decks main weakness is MASS REMOVAL. Daze does jack shit to stop deeds, wogs, and damnations. Counterspell always stops deeds, wogs, and damnations. Also stifle can stop deeds and engineered explosives (which is savage tech against this deck by the way). Daze just sits there like some emo kid, crying about how it has lost control of life.

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Originally Posted by Volt

Doesn't anybody care about the opinions of people who have been developing and playing this deck for the last several months? We aren't speaking in theoretical terms. We are speaking from loads and loads of experience.

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No, Mav, Pinder, and SockMonkey think they own the copyright on counterslivers.

Anywho...On to the next order of business. Daze accualy will do something to mass removal. If a wog is cast on turn 4, the opponent is just stupid and should have played around it. If wog is cast with a few extra mana left open daze can stop them from playing a threat that turn, giving you an advantage.
But Daze, if used at all, is an early game tempo loser. Sure i'll admit that counter spell is better. That is if you hit your land drops and your opponent is not playing ld.

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Originally Posted by BeeblesofLife

No, Mav, Pinder, and SockMonkey think they own the copyright on counterslivers.

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Umm Volt has been testing the deck along with Pinder and myself for longer than SockMonkey

EDIT: BTW I'm not trying to say that SockMonkey hasn't been testing this deck for a long time as well, just trying to make sure that Volt gets his due credit too.

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Anywho...On to the next order of business. Daze accualy will do something to mass removal. If a wog is cast on turn 4, the opponent is just stupid and should have played around it. If wog is cast with a few extra mana left open daze can stop them from playing a threat that turn, giving you an advantage.

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Great!! So I lose the game, but can take solace in the fact that they don't get to play their threat till next turn? I think you should reread The Art of War I don't think you understood it very well.

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Originally Posted by BeeblesofLife

Sure i'll admit that counter spell is better. That is if you hit your land drops and your opponent is not playing ld.

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That's the one exception I'll grant you. Daze is AMAZING against lando.


That aside, the following is quoted for hilarity:

Lol, Daze is good against Wrath, but not for that reason. It's good because Wrath and other sweepers are at the high cc end of most decks curves. And decks that run such sweepers don't play many creatures of their own. Which means they're going to need to use them early on just to stay alive, making them vulnerable to Daze. But if your opponent does anticipate daze and waits an extra turn, GOOD, that's one more turn for you to find that Force or Counterspell. You play a lot of cantrips for a reason. That one extra turn that Daze bought you is enough to let you play 2-4 cantrips, more than enough to find Force or Counterspell.

But mass removal in general just isn't that common in this format. Maybe 6% of the field runs them. The mass removal cards that see a good bit of play are Pyroclasm, Infest and Engineered Plague. All three cards can sometimes set you back early on, esp if you lead with a Crystalline and your opponent knows that. Which is why they will try to play them as early as they have the mana to, because they don't want to give you an extra turn to cast one of your 12 pump slivers and make their card irrelevent, and you will be glad you have a Daze to save your butt. A counterspell and Stifle just sit there helpless. This isn't theory talking, this is a common situation I've run into.

Also Crystalline isn't in your opening hand everygame. Often times you have to make due to with a second turn Muscle Sliver and be forced to protect that with Daze. And even when Crystalline is in your opening hand, it can easily meet up with a Force or Counterspell. This is what Daze protects against.

I do know you guys have a lot more experience with this deck and take your feedback seriously though. So I will be running Stifles. So don't worry, your counterpoints aren't falling on deaf ears.

Sorry Mav(I forgot you are god) With hibernation sliver you bounce shit in response to mass removal. The purpose of the daze would be to make sure an earlier threat than yours doesnt kill your small fragile creatures when they first come out.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

Crystalline isn't in your opening hand everygame. Often times you have to make due to with a second turn Muscle Sliver and be forced to protect that. And even when Crystalline is in your opening hand, it can easily meet up with a Force or Counterspell. This is what Daze protects against.

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If you do not have a crystaline in your opening hand, cantrip into it. It is quite often a play mistake to drop an unprotected muscle sliver on turn 2.
Pyroclasm and infest should be irrelevant if your runing 12 pump slivers. Plague should be dealt with by harmonic sliver and again is usually irrelevant if you have 12 pump slivers. It sounds to me like your playing your slivers too aggressively, try slowing your play down a little.

EDIT: @Beebles I'd much rather just counter the mass removal, instead of paying life and replaying my creatures. Or I could bounce the slivers and just counter their threat. Either option is a better choice than yours.

So when I say that Daze does a good job of protecting my pump slivers from burn etc before crystalline hits the table as well as letting me resolve crystalline through countermagic, you reply that Crystalline should be played first.

But when I mention Pyroclasm or worse yet, Flamebreak, you reply that I should lead with pump slivers to protect crystalline.

So which is it? :tongue:

You leave yourself vulnerable early on, whether to countermagic, removal, nontargeted removal ala edicts, or flamebreak/infest/pyroclasm, and that's what Daze has been very good to me in regards to.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

So when I say that Daze does a good job of protecting my pump slivers from burn etc before crystalline hits the table as well as letting me resolve crystalline through countermagic, you reply that Crystalline should be played first.

But when I mention Pyroclasm or worse yet, Flamebreak, you reply that I should lead with pump slivers to protect crystalline.

So which is it? :tongue:

You leave yourself vulnerable early on, whether to countermagic, removal, nontargeted removal ala edicts, or flamebreak/infest/pyroclasm, and that's what Daze has been very good to me in regards to.

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Force of will is what does that job, usually your first sliver should come down turn 3 at the earliest. Giving your opponent one turn to drop a pyrclasm or something before you drop some combination of muscle slivers and plated slivers. Honestly you run 4 crystaline, if you drop one down and it gets pyroclasmed but you lose nothing else then it really doesn't matter. Just cantrip for another one. The worry is losing more than one sliver to a mass removal spell.

What I'm curious about is exactly what late-game threats are you worried about once you establish board control? Mass removal? That's one of the versatile uses of Hibernation Sliver, which will be in play against Control decks if you establish board control. Establishing board control isn't as easy as dropping a Crystalline Sliver, which you won't always have anyway. Either way though, the Counterspell vs Daze vs Stifle debate is never going to end up with a winner because each player has a different playstyle. I'm going to keep running Daze regardless of the arguments made for and I'm sure others feel likewise about Counterspell. I think it should just be left at that.

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usually your first sliver should come down turn 3 at the earliest

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This is a prime example of what I mean by different playstyles. I always drop Plated Sliver on turn 1 if I have it unless I keep a 1 land hand and I need to cantrip. With 6 Crystalline Slivers, I usually have one for turn 2 and if not I try to cantrip into it. Either way, losing 1 Plated Sliver isn't a huge loss to me. If I have Daze in hand, I can go about playing my turn 2 Muscle Sliver and dig for Crystalline within the next few turns. I play defensively when it comes to blocking early on but I like to have blockers out to do so. Once I outsize my opponent's creatures, which typically happens by about turn 3-4, I start pushing into the red zone. The deck feels very aggroish to me and I like to try to lower my opponent's life total as low as possible as soon as possible (realistically of course, not recklessly). This may be a big reason why I prefer Daze over Counterspell. I'd honestly cut Stifle before Daze for Counterspell if I didn't need the Wasteland protection.

I'm going to try a 4/3/2 FoW/Daze/Counterspell split. The biggest reasons I added Stifle in UWb Fish were because it answered Goblins nicely, which was a problem matchup, and it had synergy with Jotun Grunt. Slivers has a pretty good matchup against Goblins and I'm questioning it's necessity. The biggest reason for running it so far is for Wasteland protection, especially since the deck (my version at least) is 4c. I'll try the 4/3/2 split and if I find myself not getting wrecked by Wasteland (and still pwning Goblins), I'll make the switch. The extra spot can become the 8th Muscle Sliver. For randomness like Deed and Explosives, we have countermagic, Hibernation Sliver, and even Harmonic Sliver. I'll do some testing and see which configuration I like better.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

So when I say that Daze does a good job of protecting my pump slivers from burn etc before crystalline hits the table as well as letting me resolve crystalline through countermagic, you reply that Crystalline should be played first.

But when I mention Pyroclasm or worse yet, Flamebreak, you reply that I should lead with pump slivers to protect crystalline.

So which is it? :tongue:

You leave yourself vulnerable early on, whether to countermagic, removal, nontargeted removal ala edicts, or flamebreak/infest/pyroclasm, and that's what Daze has been very good to me in regards to.

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I think what Mav is failing to point out, is that it depends on the meta game really. A fact is that you are going to lose slivers early game, you cant protect them all. Counter magic is a tried and true way to prevent this...but trying to protect all early on non-vital slivers is a waste of time. The best course of action with mass removal would be to put your pump slivers into play first and counter the mass removal. By doing this you gain an early point advantage by having bigger critters after the countered mass removal has left open a small window.

And Mav...Its call feigned retreat, it is used to lure your opponents out and then strike them when they are weak. I assumed you read the book, therefore i assumed you understood what I ment...Example, you bounce critters in repsonse to mass removal. They play maybe one threat same turn.
While you drop a butt-ton of small threats out that get bigger with eachothers company. Many vs One. That is exploiting a major weakness in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Maverick676

Force of will is what does that job, usually your first sliver should come down turn 3 at the earliest.

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Was that a typo, or are you seriously saying that it's a misplay to cast any slivers before the third turn?:eek: No wonder you're so concerned with the goblins matchup.

So the alternatives you propose to just running Daze are either A.) Using up a FoW to make sure the Crystalline resolves or to protect your muscle sliver or B.) Letting the Crystalline/Muscle Sliver go to the graveyard and desperately try to cantrip into one later on to regain board position. I much prefer using up a Daze to make sure my Crystalline resolves ro to protect my Muscle Sliver and saving my FoW in case of seeing some bomb like Wrath or Flamebreak.

Why let a sliver die and lose board position when you can use Daze to save that sliver and use those cantrips instead to find FoW to preserve your board dominance and ensure victory?

Maybe it's just my playstyle but I certainly don't share your view that you should burn through all your cantrips the first two turns before casting any slivers. If you have good creatures to play and something (Daze/FoW) to protect them with, play them. Just because you cast cast Brainstorm turn one doesnt mean you always should. I like to estabilsh board dominance early and protect it with countermagic. I only burn through cantrips when I start running low on ways to protect/maintain my board dominance.