BTW, how has been the absence of Harmonic Sliver and Meddling Mage on the sideboard going?
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BTW, how has been the absence of Harmonic Sliver and Meddling Mage on the sideboard going?
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// lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Plains
// artifacts & enchantments
3 Aether Vial
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
// creatures
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
// instants & sorceries
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
// sideboard
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pithing Needle
4 Planar Void
3 Vindicate
I've been playing with your list lately volt to see if I liked it more or less than the UWg version and have a couple questions...
First: Are the plagues really required in the board? I know they are for gobos but I've been struggling to figure out what comes out for them, not to mention how hard it has been to actually resolve one under upkeep porting.
Second: Why PVoid over Leyline? In the matchups in which its relevant to bring in isn't the potential of starting with it in play overriding the increased cc?
Third: We tried 4 Underground Sea and 7 sac lands as opposed to the 3 and 8. Is the additional shuffle effect worth the additional damage you take and the higher risk of stifle?
Fourth: I see most current lists running ponder over portent. Is the instant card replacement offered by ponder really better than the opportunity to either mana flood/screw or shuffle your opponents library? I still seem to enjoy portent more than ponder.
Last: Are any of you guys willing to work with me and my test group on a more consistant basis as we would like to help get this deck further up the dtb list also.
Kyle
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From what I hear, PVoid is better than Leyline unless you're playing against Ichorid, so whether you use one or the other depends on how much Ichorid you see in the meta. PVoid keeps goyf small, which is related to why folks were talking about Morningtide over Tormod's Crypt. PVoid avoids nasty tricks like Extirpate. PVoid is much easier to cast when it's not in your first hand (though I suppose that if it were to matter, you'd just mull into oblivion until you got it). Getting Leyline out on turn zero is nice, but actually an equally big concern is that PVoid lets things hit the graveyard at all, allowing your opponent's triggered effects to fire. Nevertheless, the fact of the matter is that you don't really care about your yard, so denying all possible opponents BOTH yards is more generally effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by wh33lz
The only thing I'd still consider Portent in is a deck with a lot of overlapping denial/removal. I played 'hooks against GU Thresh that did this, and it was very effective to Stifle/Waste some of my lands, then Portent and shuffle/Predict away some lands that I would have drawn. Even if you're running Wastes and Stifles but not Predict, it seems you'd still use Ponder... oftentimes you really need that answer/threat, and you can't cast these as Instants to "cheat" by casting at end of turn!
The philosophical problem that I have with all the lists with such low sliver counts (14-15) is that the number of slivers you have on the board is one of the major contributing factors to their overall strength.
Take for example the power gap between 2 slivers on the board and 3. Here is a breakdown for all combinations of 2 and 3 slivers from the UWg list.
2 Cards - 2cc
2 Plated = 2x 1/3 = 2 Board Power
2 Cards - 3cc
1 Plated, 1 Wing = 2x 1/2 Flying = 2 Board Power
1 Plated, 1 Muscle = 2x 2/3 = 4 Board Power
1 Plated, 1 Crystalline = 1x 2/3, 1x 1/2 Shroud = 2 Board Power
2 Cards - 4cc
2 Crystalline = 2x 2/2 = 4 Board Power, Shroud
1 Crystalline, 1 Muscle = 1x 3/3, 1x 2/2 = 5 Board Power, Shroud
1 Crystalline, 1 Wing = 1x 2/2, 1x 1/1 = 3 Board Power, Flying, Shroud
1 Muscle, 1 Wing = 2x 2/2 = 4 Board Power, Flying
2 Muscle = 2x 3/3 = 6 Board Power
2 Wing = 2x 1/1 = 2 Board Power, Flying
3 Cards - 3cc
3 Plated = 3x 1/4 = 3 Board Power
3 Cards - 4cc
2 Plated, 1 Muscle = 3x 2/4 = 6 Board Power
2 Plated, 1 Crystal = 3x 1/3 = 3 Board Power, Shroud
2 Plated, 1 Winged = 3x 1/3 = 3 Board Power, Flying
3 Cards - 5cc
1 Plated, 1 Crystalline, 1 Muscle, = 1x 3/4, 2x 2/3 = 7 Board Power, Shroud
1 Plated, 2 Muscle = 3x 3/4 = 9 Board Power
3 Cards - 6cc
2 Crystalline, 1 Muscle = 2x 3/3, 1x 2/2 = 8 Board Power, Shroud
2 Crystalline, 1 Wing = 2x 2/2, 1x 2/2 = 5 Board Power, Flying, Shroud
1 Crystalline, 2 Muscle = 1x 4/4, 2x 3/3 = 10 Board Power, Shroud
2 Muscle, 1 Wing = 3x 3/3 = 9 Board Power, Flying
1 Muscle, 2 Wing = 3x 2/2 = 6 Board Power, Flying
1 Crystalline, 1 Muscle, 1 Wing = 1x 3/3, 2x 2/2 = 7 Board Power, Flying, Shroud
3 Crystalline = 3x 2/2 = 6 Board Power, Shroud
3 Muscle = 3x 4/4 = 12 Board Power
3 Wing = 3x 1/1 Flying = 3 Board Power, Flying
2 Slivers on the board isnt much to write home about but 3 slivers starts to be formidable. The jump from 3 to 4 is even more impressive.
P=S(X+1)+C where P = board power; S = # of slivers you control; X = # of Muscle/Sinew Slivers; C = # of Crystalline Slivers.
Remember this? Its the equation for overall board power for slivers. There are only 8 possible slots in your deck for X but there is nothing stopping you from expanding on S as every sliver in your deck that you lay down gives you +1 S. If you are limiting the number of slivers in your deck you are also limiting your opportunity to expand S.
Sure, you can hit me up on AIM and we could do some brainstorming or MWS play (that is if I can fix it :/ ). PM me if youre interested.Quote:
Originally Posted by wh33lz
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Oh, reeeal productive Volt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
First convince me that 14 Slivers is enough when you need 3 of them on the board to do anything. Also convince me that 14 slivers is enough for Vial to be worth its weight. Please use arguments instead of smiley faces, jerkass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx
I'm actually in the same boat here. 14 slivers is just plain and simply not better than threshold. The counterbalance plan takes away even more slots too, I'm not saying its bad, but I still fail to understand how this is giving the deck more than it had. I'm gonna say this until I'm blue in the face, but the way that slivers wins is that all of the slivers help each other out, with only 14 of them thats not enough. Also, I think you're way too concerned about the landstill matchup, yes its bad, but its winnable, and we're hurting most of our other matchups with the black splash. Also with only 14 creatures, I'm pretty sure this is a better creature suite...
4 Meddling Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Mystic Enforcer
If your going to play this deck I think we need to have the extra slivers like before and most of the time it needs to be played as an aggresive deck, not a deck sitting back and playing counterbalance. Only against combo would i want the counterbalance, and it could really just as easily be meddling mages that come in for stopping combo. Hell I out PACED belcher putting I think 12 empty tokens on the table on either turn 2 or 3.
Personally, this seems like what I'd want this kind of start 90% of the time...
Turn 1: Vial
Turn 2: Vial @ 1; Play Crystalline Sliver, Vial in Plated Sliver
Turn 3: Vial @ 2; Play Muscle Sliver, Vial in Sinew Sliver, Swing for 7
Turn 4: Vial @ 2; Swing for 13, extend hand shake to my opponent.
While with the counterbalance plan it'll be more like this...
Turn 1: Play Top
Turn 2: Play Counterbalance, Cast Force of Will so that it gets in play (this would be true above in some cases too no doubt)
Turn 3: Play Hibernation Sliver, Spin top once
Turn 4: Play Sinew Sliver, Attack for 3
Turn 5: Play Crystalline Sliver, Attack for 5
Turn 6: Play Sinew Sliver, Attack for 11
Ok, I'll stop there. They might be dead by turn 6, its normally safe to assume that in Legacy your opponent fetched. That said, it was a full 2 turns slower. Yes, you could get something that was more of a blowout than that, but you need to leave mana open for the countertop if your going to play it, otherwise its useless. Furthermore, with only 14 creatures, drawing into them isn't going to be the easiest thing in the world. In my example I played 2 of the same creature the 2nd time around, thats actually statistically just not going to happen often. In the first example I didnt even play a creature on turn 4, thats how fast the deck can be, makes it tough for a board sweeper that your opponent might have to be effective. Especially if your holding a daze/force/counter.
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I don't think we're going anyway using this language. I think we should keep a good attitude in the forums, shouldn't we?Quote:
Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx
You're absolutely right, one very important thing is to remember how important is it to play a deck that suits your play style, some people would prefer a more control-oriented deck, and for me that's fine, It's surely a viable choice. I'm sure your decklist works and the card choices you made are ok, I won't go dismissing your deck, it's a different approach, as simple as that, and I think everybody should respect that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
A very different issue is to agree on your card choices, I think it depends so much on the metagame you expect to fight against, for example, in Spain there's always going to be a lot of goblins, and you have to deal with them. That's the reason I prefer a faster, more aggro-ish build; but before I came to this version I tested myself the counter-top engine maindeck (everybody should test variations before dismissing other people's ideas) and I decided it was not worth it in my meta. Anyway I agree counter-top is a very powerful tool, but I think the mana denial strategy (stifle + wasteland) and the 18-19 slivers is the best possible way to go.
Awesome analysis, I agree with you that the more slivers the better. Everybody please think now about a Counterslivers mirror match... who wins?Quote:
Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx
The more slivers, the "slyest" (ok, i made up this one)
And now time for brainstorming:
1) Is Meddling mage necessary in the board if you play Stifle maindeck?
2) How do you deal with Ichorid? I'm thinking of 3 Tormod's crypt in the board, the graveyard decks seem to be on the rise. Expect them everywhere after their results at Worlds.
3) What's your sideboard plan against the life decks? Expect them everywhere as well after their results at Worlds.
4) In the Spanish Legacy championship I swapped the 2 Worship from the board to 2 Essence sliver, and never looked back. No monored or RG agro at Worlds... what do you think?
Discuss!
This is the problem I've yet to see addressed. Why play slivers if we're only running 14 of them? It doesnt make sense, lets compare shall we...
For the sake of argument, lets assume that we have a UGw Thresh and your UWb countersliver. Ok, we're assuming both are running countertop in the same numbers (3/3). Lets also assume that there is 1 each of the creatures in the 14 in play and compare. Lets also assume that they have threshold because that is really not difficult to do at all. We'll also assume conservatively that 'goyf is a 4/5.
Nimble Mongoose (3/3) + Tarmogoyf (4/5)+ Meddling Mage (2/2)+ Mystic Enforcer (6/6)
Combined Power/Toughness = 15/16
Winged Sliver (2/2) + Sinew Sliver(2/2) + Hibernation Sliver (3/3) + Crystalline Sliver (3/3)
Combined Power/Toughness = 10/10
Now, I'm not pretending that this shows the entire story. More of their creatures are open to StP because all of the slivers are untargetable while only their mongoose is. All the slivers are flying, they only have enforcer. Of course on the other hand, 'goyf could get as big as 6/7 a lot easier than you might think. Meddling Mage stops a lot of stuff potentially. Mystic Enforcer also has pro-black. Threshold was also assumed here, but really the way the deck blows through fetches, counters, and cantrips I dont think any of us are fooling ourselves into thinking that its difficult to do so.
So, please tell me what reason that we have to not play thresh if we're only playing 14 slivers? Lets look at this board position on the other hand, for the sake of argument i assumed only adding the plated as opposed to plated and talon.
Winged Sliver (3/4) + Sinew Sliver(3/4) + Muscle Sliver(3/4) + Crystalline Sliver (4/5) + Plated Sliver (3/4)
Combined power/toughtness = 16/21
This also doesnt take into account that having 3 muscle/sinew in play does happen quite often.
I'm still debating the countertop plan, and no its not just universally considered to be awesome. I've seen it played more and then less a lot. Typically it depends on how much control/combo vs aggro there is out there.
What I'm looking for is a reason why your 14 sliver package is better. If I missed the previous explanation here I apologize in advance for not reading though every page of the forum.
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I have playtested the UWb CounterTopSliver and it has been really good. Hibernation kicks huge ass for its bouncing ability. Bounce blocking with a few slivers is never the last option, as you'd take that damage anyway, so why not to take maybe less and now have the upper hand. If you are low at life, you would chump block anyway, so what the hell...
I gotta get me those Underground Seas... or at least borrow them. Champ coming at day 22. Solo-Goyf UGw Thresh or the uber fun UWb CounterTopSliver (if I get those things in time)?
BTW, played UGw Thresh at a small 8 people champ today for 2-0-1. :tongue:
Why isn't this deck running Mirror Entity, exactly?
Since you're essentially running a deck with all 1/1 and a couple 2/2 creatures, and since Mirror Entity's ability works in layer 6B to Muscle/Sinew's 6D (IE, Three mana + Entity/Muscle/Sinew/Crystalline = Swing for 21), This allows for you to quickly amass an untargetable horde of Slivers that can match size with Tarmogoyfs.
Frankly, this man speaks the truth. Why mess around with Top / CB when entity just gives you the win against thresh / gobos / anything that isn't combo? Another + of it is that mirror entity allows all our slivers to be much better individually, which means that we could just with with crystalline and mirror entity against control and be hitting them for a lot each turn.
Kronicler
What ever happened to the 4c version of this deck? I thought the list was awesome. Was the mana base just too fragile?
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I really want to try this out. The UWG version because it is cheaper. I like the mana disruption strategy. List:
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
3 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
The thing I hate is the 15 Slivers. I really want to add Plated to make it more aggresive. There is like nothing to cut, however. The stuff off the top of my head would be 2 Ponders and a Daze. I actually like that. Edit -2 Ponder, -1 Daze, + 3 Plated SLiver
SB
4 Needle
3 Krosan Grip
8 Hydroblast/Crypt/Counter-Top/stuff
Well, I can see Mirror Entity in a UWb version of the deck, as a source of extra power, because, as stated before, thar version may lack of power. In other versions I think we have more than enough with 8 Muscle Slivers.