BTW, did the deck change in anyway or are you still running the same thing emidln?
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BTW, did the deck change in anyway or are you still running the same thing emidln?
3 basicsQuote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
8 fetches
6 duals
1 petal
12 rit/led
8 tutors
1 dday
1 draw4
1 igg
1-2 tendrils
0-1 etw
4 chant
1 extirpate
1 kgrip
11 brainstorm/top/ponder
sb has been:
1 slot (etw when it's not main)
1 brain freeze
2 abeyance
1 extirpate
3 kgrip
1 wipe away
1 etruth
1 rriver
4 serenity
This has been pretty close to what I've been running for a couple months now.
I little while back I threw together a really weird FT list, just for fun:
4 Delta
4 Strand
2 USea
1 Scrub
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Trop
2 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 LED
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Top
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Cunning Wish
2 Meditate
1 Doomsday
1 IGG
2 Tendrils
3 Orim's Chant
2 Extirpate
SB
4 Serenity
2 KGrip
2 Extirpate
1 Echoing Truth
1 Brainfreeze
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Echoing Truth
1 Rushing River
1 Meditate
The deck is total jank basically, but it can also fight through a near infinite number of FoWs. Like I mean, the average hand can probably win through 3.5 FoWs on turn 5. The problem is, of course, if they play pressure, or some sort of disruption besides FoW, you're kinda fucked. The aggro MU is also only about 50/50 - some hands can combo early but most can't.
Thoughts?
I didn't mean to bash the deck in whole, just over a few cards choices that you made. One of my goals is to produce the best tendrils list possible. I personally like the Street Wraiths and extra lotus petals for the ability to win a lot quicker. I can understand that your deck is probably more suited for the control matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Street Wraiths have won me a lot of games b/c of the ability to add to threshold in order for my cabal rituals to produce the maximum mana. I can understand the inclusion of top and doomsdays so your not reliant on the graveyard all the time. I just have my sideboard set up in a way where I'm really not worried about extirpate or graveyard hate all that much after game 1.
This is my most recent list that I've been playing with. Free feel to bash it or offer some suggestions.
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Street Wraith
4 Lotus Petal
4 Orim’s Chant
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
3 Ponder
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Wipe Away
SB
1 Rebuild
1 Sudden Death
1 Echoing Truth
2 Serenity
2 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Xantid Swarm
4 Thoughtseize
I'd definetly play somewhere in the 75 a Doomsday and an Abeyance. Probably with -1 SW +1 Doomsday and -1 Thoughtseize +1 Abeyance.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
Also, when playing a "top-less" version, I always like dark confidant in the sb.
What I like about the SW version it's that it's soo easy to play compared to the Top one. The decision tree is a lot smaller. Sure, if you're a pro this comes to your advantage, but if you're just a guy like many others it becomes simple and more relaxing going int a long tournament.
@ Nick's List:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta--4 of is necessary. Shuffle effects, Threshold, etc.
2 Underground Sea--You only need 1x.
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
On the land in reference to your only win-con being 2x Tendrils, I think you need to drop a tendrils to the board in favor of either a Brain Freeze or an EtW. You discarding it for some reason (Duress/T-Seize/Hymn/etc.)=them Extirpating=you lose. For EtW, I'd drop a plains or go up to 16 lands depending on how necessary basics are in your meta. 8 fetches are just too good to not play.
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Street Wraith
4 Lotus Petal
4 Orim’s Chant
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
2 Ill-Gotten Gains --DD man, DD. Think about it, when do you even NEED 2x IGG? Every time I've used 2, I'm getting greedy and I've already stormed lethal, it's just to add insult to injury.
2 Tendrils of Agony--I mentioned a different win-con in 1 slot here.
3 Ponder
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Wipe Away
--Your refusal to run DD is astounding. Have you tested it? Sure, with your list it's quite a bit more difficult to play thanks to having to have a cantrip in your hand, therefore making LED's useless to get the mana necessary for the using of it, but I must say it's better than not having the option at all. Double Leyline sux.
SB
1 Rebuild
1 Sudden Death--I have to say that I would prefer to play Pact.
1 Echoing Truth
2 Serenity--I agree with this. 2x is plenty. 4x is overkill.
2 Extirpate--1x should be in the mainboard. Get's rid of their chants/FoW's/whatever. NO reason not to run it.
2 Krosan Grip
2 Xantid Swarm--Wtf? This is not ok with me...I'm going to need an explanation as to why this>Abeyance.
4 Thoughtseize--Duress>>>T-Seize. You don't care about goyf or even creatures in general, and 2x lifeloss is very relevant in some matchups this is sided in for.
As just mentioned, I like SW version to run Confidants in the board. They work very well in the control MU. Obviously dropping Wraiths out in favor of confdants g2 and 3.
On a personal aside, I've been missing a 9th tutor. I've really been wanting one. I used to run Grim as a singleton, but it's 3cc cost almost always screwed me, or the lifeloss sucked. I still have it, but it's useless, I'd like something else. What do you think about Plunge into Darkness? It looks useful in tandem with EtW. It's an instant. It's a tutor/Lifegainer. The problem is obvious with removing them from the game, but at the same time with Brainstorms/Ponders/Tops, I think the damage could be minimal. If nothing else, it would burn through the top 3 cards to get to new peeks. When they drop an EE the turn after you EtW for 16, you are 2 mana away from saying hehehehe, whatevah. I'll gain 48 life in response to that for 1B.
I haven't tested it, I was wanting feedback first. It's not just a bad LDV (obviously it's a bad LDV); it has some redeeming qualities that I think should be discussed or looked at and even tried out. Like any card, you would need to figure out exactly how it would best be used, and then if it was worth it or if something else should be considered, or if it should be dropped altogether. I like 9 tutors, though, and this is the closest I've seen to what I'm looking for.
LMK ideas and what you think. There's my critique on what I think of your list, Nick. Probably nothing new said about your choices, and I doubt I was very convincing with any of my comments, but it's all I have tonight.
Pce,
--DC
I have recently added 2 Xantid Swarm in the board because the stupid people in Syracuse have 4 Orim's Chant in the board just for combo. The decks that I seen with this strategy is Threshold and Survival mainly. I just didn't think the 4 thoughtseize was enough.
The only reason I run Thougtseize over Duress is the presence of Gaddock Teeg, maybe he doesn't see play in your meta, but over here both Threshold and Survival run him, either main deck or in the board. The original list had a one of, krosan grip and extirpate. The only problem I have with this is that the deck does not have a game 1 out to a Teeg. I like the 1 of Wipe Away in the Krosan Grip slot at least in the main deck as it provides you more flexible on problems that you can't deal with.
I would hate to not have an out for a gaddock teeg, especially when you are playing with mystical tutors.
My main argument for the Top version, is that it slows the deck down a little more than the original list. I'm already behind the 8 ball in terms of speed when playing against TES and did not want the deck slowed down any more. If no one played TES in our meta, then I could see your version being strickly better.
What is the matchup against TES?
Are you having as much trouble as I am with that matchup?
Thoughts?
@nickrit2000: with your decklist I presume you haven't many trouble against TES if you play properly the deck. This mean play defensively. The matchup round on Orim's Chant.
You can start the combo if your opponent hasn't into play a white mana; otherwise you play Orim's Chant defensively in response to opponent's Chant.
The key is the patience. Then in SB you have only useful cards like Extirpate and Thoughtseize. Especially Extirpate is an additional weapon for the game, after a Chant's battle, you can extirpate the opponent's Chants and then win easily, or sometimes you can can kill your opponent with SW, but you need to play them only if you can keep a white mana open.
Anyway, if your opponent win on the play it's only lucky, but usually this isn't an unfavorable matchup.
About Plunge into Darkness, it doesn't fix well into the deck like in TES, but you can try it; so you persuade yourself that it's too muchy risky to remove cards from the game (no burning wish...).
About the questions I propose one page ago, I'm completely agree with the answers of GreeOne.
Plunge into darkness sucks hard.
You can't do it for a reasonable amount to call it a tutor(say, 10,12 life points) because it clogs Doomsday and removes cards from your library. What if your lonely IGG or Tendrils is in those top 12 or even top 4 cards?
In this deck it's an "oops, I lose" card.
Heck, I'd play Impulse over it.
If you want a 9th tutor go for LDV in the Top version. They have a good synergy.
The grim tutors are probably better in a SW version than in the Top one, where Doomsday plays just a marginal role.
@DC:
the 2nd IGG is useful much more in the SW version. This is because the deck wants to be faster, and a 2nd IGG can allow a small percentage of 1st turn kills. It also helps in emptying your hand for IT if you got one in hand. It also helps when you're drawing IGG and you can't storm for lethal. It also helps when your lonely IGG gets discarded. That's because the deck can't abuse Doomsday that well. Don't get me wrong, DD is useful in the SW version, but it's not like you can use it every time, due to the absence of SDT.
so, arguments for a 2nd copy in SW are:
1. little more 1st and 2nd kills.
2. It's a tutorable way to get hellbent.
3. If you draw 1 sometimes you'll need a second one to storm for lethal.
4. If the first one gets discarded/extracted/whatever.
In cases 3 and 4 the double tendrils plan would do the job, becoming a valid alternative to DD.
That is why I'd want either 2 copies of tendrils, 2 copies of IGG, or 2 and 2, but I'd never go with 1 Tendrils and 1 IGG.
[Disclaimer/Warning]
This might be a long post, I have a lot to respond to. I might have to edit in more stuff later as I'm on the road right now.
[/Disclaimer/Warning]
I'm not actually against this, but the Doomsday version ignores Teeg -- we seriously win the game even when the card comes down. You sb in either Brain Freeze or Slaughter Pact (I've been liking this as the 15th sb card more and more since it avoids random Gaea's Blessings that are splashed from competent opponents.) and go to town with the Doomsday stack of:Quote:
The only reason I run Thougtseize over Duress is the presence of Gaddock Teeg, maybe he doesn't see play in your meta, but over here both Threshold and Survival run him, either main deck or in the board. The original list had a one of, krosan grip and extirpate. The only problem I have with this is that the deck does not have a game 1 out to a Teeg. I like the 1 of Wipe Away in the Krosan Grip slot at least in the main deck as it provides you more flexible on problems that you can't deal with.
I would hate to not have an out for a gaddock teeg, especially when you are playing with mystical tutors.
Draw4
LED
LED
Top/Slaughter Pact
Brain Freeze/Tendrils
While we all agree that 4 Orim's Chants are to be used (even the misguided TES players know that :tongue:), the secondary and tertiary protection options are in somewhat constant flux. Here's the breakdown that I work with:Quote:
Thoughtseize, Duress, Xantid Swarm, Abeyance, Pact of Negation, Force of Will, Dark Confidant, Extirpate
Thoughtseize/Duress
- SW Version Analysis
Abysmal against not-countertop blue (IGG makes these terrible unless paired with Extirpate or Chant effect), passable against white control (Chants/Abeyances), good on the play vs Chalice decks, bad on the draw vs Chalice decks, worse than Chant against aggro. There is no little drawback to using Thoughtseize over Duress (even with Dark Confidant, SW, and Draw4s) considering the huge benefit of taking Gaddock Teeg, Meddling Mage, and similar creature-based hate.
- Doomsday Version Analysis
Good against all blue (although notably suffering from the "Mana Drain"), passable against white control, good on the play vs Chalice decks, bad on the draw vs Chalice decks, worse than Chant against aggro. Because of the heavy lifeloss associated with Doomsday, it may be appropriate to play some amount of Duress if you're considering targetted discard spells. Duress fits into a Doomsday pile without killing you (although it's arguable if you should ever include Duress over Chant) and won't drop your life total below acceptable levels for your Doomsday stack.
Abeyance - Orim's Chants 5-8 if you want them, these also take care of Tormod's Crypt and Faerie Macabre. Notably these don't fully Time Walk. The additional colorless is sometimes difficult to come up with on a combo turn if attempting to play other costed disruption (e.g. not MisD, PoN, or FoW) without playing ritual effects before your protection. This is the best secondary protection spell in the combo matchup.
Xantid Swarm - Orim's Chant on wheels is the best protection against non-red Threshold builds. It's recurs every turn and is only answerable (in most builds) by 0-4 STP, 0-2 EE, and (temporarily) Stifle/Trickbind effects. Swarm doesn't require mana to activate, allowing for more mana on a combo turn, but likely requires a second green source outside of Petals (potentially enabling Tarmogoyf, Pernicious Deed, or Trygon Predator as well). Xantid Swarm is good against white-based control (Chant-type effects) if it sticks around (which is unlikely due to White control usually having too many creature control spells to sideboard out to leave them defenseless). Xantid Swarm is rather hit or miss in the combo mirror. If it sticks and attacks, you can probably win the game. However, access to both white mana and green mana early isn't guaranteed, so you may signal to your opponent that you have no Chant effect allowing them to combo unhindered on their own turn. With multiple fetchlands, this might serve as an excellent bait tactic.
Pact of Negation - FoW on crack during the combo turn, unplayable before turn 3 otherwise, PoN is either really good or really bad. Against counterbalance control, it is almost always really bad. Inability to deal with early CB combined with getting nailed by lands with a CB in play is a bad combination. This is excellent in builds with 2-3 Tendrils for its ability to bait non-counterbalance blue into counter wars with the goal of ending in Tendrils regardless of whether our initial spells resolve. In the Doomsday build, this is an excellent 1-of for protection your final Tendrils against incoming Stifles when you are short on white mana ala this stack:
Draw4
LED
LED
PoN
Tendrils
Force of will - Always paired with Doomsday or Pact of Negation, Force of Will is a good solution to opposing permanent-based hate. Force can catch untimely Chant effects along with anything else that might get in your way. Unfortunately, the extra card paid is a steep price in a deck that is usually short on blue cards and wants the blue cards that it does see. FoW might be best paired in a Counterbalance Doomsday or 5-6 topdeck tutor (using Lim-Dul's Vault) build where you may conceivably have blue spells that you don't need on your combo turn. Given the propensity to sideboard out blue spells, Force generally gets worse postboard, leading to a general lack of use (at least in my builds).
Extirpate - On its own, Extirpate is situationally better than Orim's Chant against blue control for hitting stray Force of Wills. Paired with another disruption/protection spell, it is a monster able to rip through Counterbalances, Force of Wills, Meddling Mages, Orim's Chants or anything else that ails you. Extirpate does randomly beat enemy decks reliant on some aspect of the graveyard (Life from the Loam decks, Intuition decks, etc) and is rarely completely dead.
Dark Confidant - In a combo deck, Dark Confidant is disruption. While this might be counterintuitive to some, Dark Confidant applies tremendous pressure through sheer aggression. Like any creature with a positive power in storm combo, Confidant's ability to enter the red zone reduces necessary storm pulling an opponent further into reach of a non-aided Tendrils (that is, a Tendrils played without a storm engine like Sensei's Top, Ill-Gotten Gains, Doomsday, or Diminishing Returns). Combined with drawing cards lowering the barrier for a non-aided Tendrils, Confidant will quickly draw an opponent into a partial defensive (they stop attacking to prevent Confidant from attacking) allowing you yet more time to setup your actual win condition. Confidant has most of the drawbacks of Xantid Swarm minus the color restriction and otherwise similar advantages.
The matchup against TES goes roughly like this:
They need to resolve Xantid Swarm or get really lucky. If they don't resolve Xantid Swarm with Orim's Chant still up on my turn, I will combo them out. If they resolve Xantid Swarm with Chant up, I'm put into a very difficult situation of burning chant effects on their turn to prevent them from comboing on their second main phase. They can combo out turn 1 on the play and I can do little to stop them. If the game goes to white mana for FT, it quickly goes downhill for TES. The issue is that both have a similar plan for chant superiority: cantripping into Chants while dropping a few artifacts and tapping 4 mana to play an ETW to add pressure. Vexing Shusher, Dark Confidant, or SW from either side provide added pressure in a way that isn't vulnerable to Chant. The main plan though, ETW, is largely neutralized by FT's ability to tutor up Echoing Truth, making it much less attractive to TES than fighting a Chant war or resolving a beater/Swarm. Conversely, FT can very easily drop a Xantid Swarm once it has white mana up and puts TES into the exact same situation. The percentages will come down to this:
How much can TES win the dice roll and win the game with Tendrils of Agony turn 1 on the play against FT's ability to sideboard anything and everything in Magic. (In a TES heavy metagame, I would consider sideboarding Gaddock Teeg in the Doomsday version to win with Teeg beats, Chant/Extirpate superiority, and Brain Freeze. Incidentally, Teeg also shuts off Force of Will and Threshold's most common answer to Empty the Warrens (Engineered Explosives.*) Given that Sensei's Top and Mystical Tutor provide insane card quality (in the form of Abeyance, Chant, mass bounce, and Extirpate) as the game goes on, TES really does't want to let it progress past turn 1.
As to nickrit's actual question, I have no problem at all beating TES with my Doomsday list, although the SW version actually has a better matchup (due to SW's ability to generate a "surprise" Orim's Chant off Mystical Tutor.
*I'm serious about this. This is from the "emidln smokes way too much vault"(TM). You might have also heard of Counterbalance Doomsday from this category. If I had more tournaments, I would test this theory, but as it stands I'm getting 3 Legacy events this summer so I'm more conservative.
As far as playing Doomsday without Sensei's Top, I would simply not recommend this. 2x IGG is necessary here, and they aren't completely terrible in your hand. IGG allows you to play through Tormod's Crypt with minor setup and the second copy allows you to execute 0 storm Infernal Tutor FTW with LEDs on the table or LEDs/Thresh'd Cabal Rits in the graveyard with appropriate supporting mana (0 to 6 additiona, depending on the number of LEDs you have on table).
I can understand the apprehension to not play 4 Lotus Petal. If the metagame dictates, I could understand playing 4 Sensei's Top and 4 Lotus Petal with Doomsday in an effort to improve your gameplan against Magus of the Moon decks like Dragon Stompy and Imperial Painter. Sensei's Divining Top is ridiculous in these matchups allowing you to win without ever seeing black mana thanks to the power of 4x Black Lotus^H^HLion's Eye Diamond, Doomsday, and Mystical Tutor. Lotus Petal will enable Dark Confidant and Serenity at the expense of making Sensei's Top much worse in the control matchup (due to fewer overall lands to abuse it).
Against most teeg decks, I sb in Rushing River and Echoing Truth (on the assumption that most decks will have some permanent that could trouble me) for Extirpate/KGrip). I would highly recommend Rushing River over Rebuild if you're not already playing Rushing River in your sideboard. It's ability to deal with problem creatures/enchantments with artifacts (you rarely need to bounce more than 2 artifacts against stax anyway, at least that's my observation while playing FT) lets Rushing River stay relevant in your non-chalice matchups.
I'll touch more on Doomsday vs SW lists later.
Why not simply try to Stifle your Top when attempting to start using the pile? It usually works much better than waiting to Stifle the storm. Obviously, this can only be done when you have no cantrip in hand, but Top is so much more common than this that the argument is valid.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
I've built piles in the past that could win through Stifle on top by passing the turn because I still had cards in hand. Most opponents wait for the final Tendrils figuring that if they can stifle that, they don't have to worry about an opponent anymore since they'll deck out naturally. Given the ability to do so, I'll usually craft my pile so that I can win in case Stifle on top activation happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
I recently threw FT back together after not playing it since I top 8'd the April Hadley tournament. I, like Nickrit2000 have found Doomsday to be complete garbage it simply needs too many things to come together to be effective. Here is the list I've been running:
Lands:15
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Creatures:4
4 Street Wraith
Noncreature Spells:40
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infernal Contract
1 Wipe Away
Sideboard:15
3 Serenity
3 Pact of Negation
2 Abeyance
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth
1 Extirpate
Is your decklist supposed to be missing Ill-Gotten Gains?
Maybe he's relying on his opponents conceding to Infernal Tutor + 5 mana? While I thought boarding out storm engines was my technology, they cut whole engines on the east coast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
lol fixed, but on a serious note I've had my fair share of Infernal->Crack LED scoops so it could work. :wink:
Commonly Played and Reliable Engines for Legacy Tendrils:
Doomsday + Brainstorm + LED + 2 Cards - BBBU (IGG Stack, Petal Variation)
Doomsday + Brainstorm + 2 Cards - BBBUU (IGG Stack)
Doomsday + Ponder - 2BBBUU (Meditate Stack)
Doomsday + Ponder - BBBBBBU (Bargain Stack)
Doomsday + Top - BBBBBB + 1 payable anytime before Doomsday (Bargain Stack)
Doomsday + Top - 2UBBB + 1 payable anytime before Doomsday (Meditate Stack)
Infernal Tutor -> IGG - 3BBBB
Infernal Tutor -> Doomsday - 1BBBBBBB + 1 payable anytime before Doomsday (Bargain Stack)
Infernal Tutor -> Doomsday - 3UBBBB + 1 payable anytime before Doomsday (Meditate Stack)
*Infernal Tutor -> Diminishing Returns - 3BUU
Burning Wish -> IGG - 3RBBB (rite of flame)
Burning Wish -> IGG - 3RRBB (dark ritual)
Burning Wsih -> IGG - 4RBBB (cabal ritual/infernal tutor)
Burning Wish -> IGG - 4RRBB (burning wish)
*Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns - 3RUU
Sensei's Divining Top x2 + Tendrils - 11BB
Sensei's Divining Top x2 + Tendrils x2 - 8BBBB
* Things listed with an asterisk don't guarantee a win, but the probability of winning is very high.
Of these, it seems that the cheapest possible win conditions a Tendrils deck can have are Doomsday-based. I fail to see how Doomsday stacks require more things to fall into place than an Infernal Tutor -> IGG or an Infernal Tutor -> Diminishing Returns win. You're essentially trading a ritual effect that's required for a draw effect.
Whilst looking up a card posted in the Landstill thread (Fracturng Gust) I ran across an interesting card by the name of Gustha's Scepter. I know it's either win-more, not enough, or too prone to artifact removal for it's own good, but I was wondering if it could be a feasable SB card against heavy Discard stratiges, somewhat like extra SDTs that function differently, or Brainstorms that are more than one shot. I'm fairly sure it's not up to the grade, but I presume introducing semifeasable innovation so it can be optimized or discarded is what these boards are for :\ I think CB would be a better choice though.
I think it's too narrow. If you're worried about discard, I guess you can sneak in Confidants from the SB, and you already have Infernal Contracts to reload.
EDIT: How about Bosium Strip? I vaguely remember it making a splash in the most recent CANGD Contest. Can it be used here?
Everytime I blow a LED with something else in hand I remember of Bosium Strip, but then I also remember that with 6 mana I can simply win the game right away.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422