Kirby, you mention that you play 4 cantrips, what would they be? I can only really think of Manamorphose, which I don't like in this deck for the same reason I don't like Baubles or Wraith.
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Kirby, you mention that you play 4 cantrips, what would they be? I can only really think of Manamorphose, which I don't like in this deck for the same reason I don't like Baubles or Wraith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbear102
I run a total of 4/60 cantrips, namely 4x Manamorphose. I wouldn't dare run 12x 3-drops or 16x Fireblasts in my burn deck. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
If you don't like Manamorphose, I can understand. However, if you don't like Manamorphose for the same reasons as Baubles, then it seems like you might need to reconsider the downsides of each. Manamorphose still isn't ideal, but for entirely different reasons. In short, Manamorphose can only be said to replace a burn spell because it costs mana to cast, but Baubles replce generic cards by truly lowering the size of the deck. If you treat Manamorphose as a deck size reducer and lower the number of lands in your deck, you'll get more unusable hands because you'll have hands with a land and a bunch of 2-drops (incl. Manamorphose) that cannot replace themselves until you get more land.
As for Wraith, I like it a lot and would run it over Manamorphose if I could afford the life loss. With Flame Rift, Flamebreak, Ring, and opposing aggro, I'm usually pretty low on life when I win.
PS: Don't tease. :tongue: What sort of manabase do you use, and what are your numbers for the above spell types?
Personally, I'm starting to really like Manamorphose. Against Wasteland decks, it's an additional and helpful way to run additional colors in Burn without getting screwed. It probably isn't going to get countered much against decks packing Snare either. I hate having PoP actually do damage to me, but the card is still way too good not to run anyway.
I haven't been able to test much as of late with my new job, but I'll throw something like a skeleton out there just to illustrate what I mean and what I've seen in my testing so far:
Lands (17)
8 fetches
1 Plateau
1 other dual (for SB cards)
7 Mountain
Creatures (4)
4 Mogg Fanatic
Slot Takers (8)
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Manamorphose
Spells (31)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
1 Shard Volley
2 Shock
4 Lightning Helix
3 Flame Rift
2 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
Any thoughts or complaints about it?
EDIT: I haven't tested Ring for this deck yet - darn, I knew there was something I forogt.
1 white source for 4x white cards, in a format that has Wasteland? Not really a good idea, as a matter of fact Lightning Helix isn't really needed. You have so many mono-red burn spells to choose from why run white at all? Run incinerate over helix if you are looking for a 2cc, 3 damage spell.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRock
Mogg Fanatic is ok but Keldon Marauders is so much better, fanatic, if resolved is only guaranteed to do 1 damage. Marauders, if resolved, will always do 2, even if STP'ed.
Price of Progress is a powerhouse in most Meta's, I run 3 in the main and 1 in the SB, you may want to up the count. Shock is an ok choice, I have been wanting to test it for a while now and haven't had the chance. The only other card I can suggest is Magma Jet, it is only 2 damage for :1::r: but the Scry 2 comes in handy most of the time. Hope this helps...
Sacearuse: Right now, it's currently 13 sources. The 8 fetchlands will work and Manamorphose turns 1R into RW into Helix. 4 white cards to play when 4 sources only work once may not be the right call no matter what color(s) are run though - I may just replace a Helix with a PoP and call it a day.
13 isn't that high of a number either.
Shock is just a one-drop that works with a turn 1 Bauble. I don't love the card but it sure is an efficient spell - I wouldn't run it if I wasn't running Bauble though. I'll also look into the Marauders too.
I'm a little iffy about playing Helix, although it's such a great card. It requires us to give up our stable mana base and makes it susceptible to Wastelands/Moon (killing the 4 Helix slot).
Actually, I was wondering if running Skullscorch is viable in this deck. It's usually most often 2 mana for 4 damage, and in mid-late games (turn 3-4), they should act like Hymn to Tourachs after the damage you've dealt to opponents. Taking 2 cards at random is always helpful for a deck that has no answer to control/combo. Just wondering, but I do know that the card is bad itself, but I'm not sure if it's much better in this deck that abuses damage fast.
I agree with the Wasteland part of your argument, but I wouldn't worry about the Moon cards. If the opponent plays a Bloodmoon or MagusMoon, I'd figure he just wasted his turn and a card. I'd actually expect the opponent to side out the Moon cards on the 2nd and 3rd game.Quote:
Originally Posted by crz87
Probably not, for the same reason we don't run Browbeat. Except in this case, your argument doesn't hold up. In the late game, some aggro decks will have expended their hand already, and this will be a dead card.Quote:
Originally Posted by crz87
Yea, my bad, 18 lands, 2-3 rings. Also, I agree with kirbysdl I wouldnt run skullscorch, however there are worse choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
I realy like the idea of a burn deck drawing cards, so i would like to try the following list (once i get the manamorphoses and street wraiths). I'd like to get some advice on the 2drop spot, and also on the mana base (how many mountains+rings (and possible inclusion of a single Keldon Megaliths)).
17 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring
Cantrips:
4x Manamorphose
4x Needle Drop
4x Street Wraith
1 drops:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
2x Shard Volley
2 drops:
4x Flame Rift/ Keldon Marauders / Magma Jet / fork?
Other:
4x Fireblast
3x Browbeat
Edit: I dont main PoP, cause i rarely play this deck in the actual tournaments i go to, its more of a backup deck for "for fun" games. and so a lot of decks i play this against arent the dual heavy decks in the DTB. If i was gonna play it in a tournament that would probably be the 2drop (or atleast some of thos 4 cards would be).
First of all, I wouldn't recommend it. But as long as you're moving in this direction, I'd run fetches to further your deck-thinning and draw-heavy design. You say that you play this in a casual environment, so I don't expect you to get Stifled much. =PQuote:
Originally Posted by RoddyVR
Then as long as you're running fetches, I'd run some Plateaus so you can use Helix in the main and Disenchant in the side. Also, Megaliths in a draw-heavy deck? You'll never see Hellbent! On the other hand, you'll get Thresh very quickly so run more Barbarian Rings. Ring/Fetch/Wraith damage will be offset a bit by the Helixes.
Needle Drop is actually kind of interesting in this deck... I wonder if the rest of the draw effects will keep you stocked with threats so you'll be able to play it consistently. Keep in mind that topdecking a Needle Drop is a Timewalk for the opp!
In a casual environment, Keldon Marauders are great, as is Flamebreak. Don't run Magma Jet in a Bauble/Cantrip-heavy design because often you'll just Scry into cantrips, which gives you no useful information anyway.
I know a bunch of you aren't into the draw spells in burn, but i added all of them... yeah all of them to the deck and so far it's pretty good. Gold fishing it almost always wins by turn 4 and The usual critique that top decking into bauble and needle drop sucks, doesn't quite hold anymore because I'm pretty much drawing 2 to 3 cards per turn and unless i draw into 2 baubles/needle drop I can handle it. The trick is not to use all you draw spells at once but to use maybe one per turn so each turn you draw at least 2 cards.
Hears my list
12 Mountains
4 Barbarian Ring
-16 land (with 20 draw spells 12 of them are free, it's enough, with all the draw there are some games where I mana flood with 5 lands...which is weird with such a low number of land...)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
-16 1 mana burn spells
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Price of progress.
-8 2 mana burn spells
4 Manamorphose
4 Needle Drop
4 Street wraith
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
-20 draw
I'm not a fan because I have tested it and it sucks. Ask Nightmare what happens when you opponent goes turn1: Fetch, Bauble, Wraith, bolt you, pass, Opponent goes Island Go. Turn 2: Chain Lightning you, Bolt you pass the turn, opponent smiles and goes Tropical Island, 5/6 TARMOGOYF ON TURN 2 WITH NO CARDS IN THERE GRAVEYARD! (Caps and bold for effect) Oh and for good measure he dropped another on on turn 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
This deck can win without all of the draw, look at the European meta for a while, burn was a DTB. That is all...
well first of all i don't run fetch's, also i would have played the bauble but save the wraith if i had 3 3dmg spells in my hand, and I would have saved the 2nd bolt that turn. Although 2 goyfs in a row are hard for any deck to deal with i think i would have played it out like thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Sacearuse
me
1 - Mountain - bauble - bolt you (opp 17)
opp
1- Island go
me
2 - (assuming you had a 2nd land since you bolted and chained) mountain - draw an extra card from bauble - bolt you ( Opp 14
opp
2- Tropical island - goyf as a 2/3 (artifact + instants in the grave, 3/4 if opponent played fetches)
me
3- assuming its a 2/3 i would chain it then wraith otherwise it really depends on whats in my hand or if the goyf is a 3/4 ....
Basically you claimed it sucked during your testing, while in my testing it was pretty good. I guess only more testing on either end would convince any of us which one is correct, and on that note i will go a do more testing.
This seems like a rather bad play and would not prevent the loss that Sacearuse was speaking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
Yeah it's a hard thing to deal with bet at that point your best bet would probably be to race and hope they dont drop Countertop engine.
yeah i racing them is probably better. With out disruption you win turn 4, so even against 5/6 goyfs turn 2 and 3 you should win. With disruption, you'll probably lose with 2 goyfs out.
Ugh. I was mentioning that this was a rather bad plan since Chain-ing the 2/3 Goyf would do nothing of relevance. He is 2/3 because of the artifact and instant in the yard. Bolting him with a sorcery ain't that hot.
Manamorphose is an automatic 4 of in this deck, end of discussion. Comparing it to Baubles is just silly. Baubles make you wait a turn and thus make horrible top decks, manamorphose doesn't. It really has zero drawbacks except for very very rarely mana burning you for two, but that's extremely rare.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbear102
Street Wraith is an auto include as well imo unless you plan to play the mirror matchup a lot.
So a 4/5 Tarmogoyf won't suck for you? This deck can't sit back and wait to burn creatures out, it has to be dropping burn spells early and often. Say you do Bolt a Goyf away, rarely happens, what happens when they drop a 2nd one? Don't waste your burn on creatures, you will lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire