[Deck] Merfolk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Piceli89

Just a question to those who run Kira maindeck and have tested enough: How do you feel having 8 3-cc creatures ? Does this compromise the speed of the deck , risking to rely too much on aether vial to cast them and being forced to slow down the game in the first turns, or nothing changed ? because, at this point, if kira is being run and the mana curve gets higher, we'd have to slow down a bit the opponent... perhaps Rishadan Port here can find an adequate application.

---

I would have loved to play Ports as well but integrating Kira maindeck rather convinced me not to go for the 11 Island build with Ports in case I have to hardcast her.

Thanks for your feedback Phoenix.

Regarding B2B. Landstill is already a good matchup isnt it? And they play at least 3-4 basics. So I am not sure it is needed. Aggro Loam is indeed a deck B2B would help against. Usually they can only get rid off the Enchantment when burning wish for it or explode it which is much harder with B2B AND Stifle main.

I will playtest a lot the next days and post some SB / matchup experience. I will especially test the matchups I lost against last time so Iam thinking about EvaGreen (with JItte), NQG/w, TeamAmerica, Goyfsligh and maybe in addition Landstill, Dredge and AggroLoam would be great.

By the way, I thought I'd point out that vialing in kira doesn't steal a targetted removal from your opponent if you do it in response to that spell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pi4meterftw

By the way, I thought I'd point out that vialing in kira doesn't steal a targetted removal from your opponent if you do it in response to that spell.

---

Yep, but she is still good.

@Mind Harness:
Isn't the point of running Relic maindeck that green creatures (Terravore/Goyf) är really weak? Is there really enough targets for this card? Sure, you can still steal alot of creatures (including goyfs) but is it good? I havn't tried it yet.

@Sygg, River Guide
Not that I suggest anything but besides that we have to color splash, white sygg has the downside of requiering UW always. You simply can't tap UW while having him in play because it allows your opponent to use all it's removal anyway. And, besides vial, he always shows your opponent that: "I can protect my guys if you try anything". Also, the abillity is Stifleable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elof

@Mind Harness:
Isn't the point of running Relic maindeck that green creatures (Terravore/Goyf) är really weak? Is there really enough targets for this card? Sure, you can still steal alot of creatures (including goyfs) but is it good? I havn't tried it yet.

@Sygg, River Guide
Not that I suggest anything but besides that we have to color splash, white sygg has the downside of requiering UW always. You simply can't tap UW while having him in play because it allows your opponent to use all it's removal anyway. And, besides vial, he always shows your opponent that: "I can protect my guys if you try anything". Also, the abillity is Stifleable.

---

Test the zoo and boros matchup then u and i can talk...ha ha but seriously, its always good to run extras of cards that help you win, you can't always draw a relic.

Unless of course your me and rip the nuts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnnyCage

Unless of course your me and rip the nuts.

---

LOL

@ pi4meter: excuse my noobness, bu why kira doesn't work vialed in response to a targetted removal ? because, if that's true, she really sucks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Piceli89

LOL

@ pi4meter: excuse my noobness, bu why kira doesn't work vialed in response to a targetted removal ? because, if that's true, she really sucks.

---

Triggered ability. That means that when the condition is met (they cast the spell targeting your creature) either she is in play and the ability triggers, or she isn't in play and you vial her in, but it's too late because the spell already targeted your creature, and the trigger has already happened for that ability.

This just means that you have to get her into play before they use a burn/stp on your creatures. It's not as good as "Creatures you control are Untargettable," but still, in my opinion, necessary a deck that relies on lords for faster kills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nekrataal

Regarding B2B. Landstill is already a good matchup isnt it? And they play at least 3-4 basics. So I am not sure it is needed. Aggro Loam is indeed a deck B2B would help against. Usually they can only get rid off the Enchantment when burning wish for it or explode it which is much harder with B2B AND Stifle main.

---

4c Landstill, which is the most common build, doesn't run even one basic, because they couldn't support all their differently colored spells if they did. So a resolved B2B is very good there, although they can still Deed it away with the rest of your board. UW Landstilll might run two or three basics, but they still need to hit UUWW by turn four, plus Factories, so there are going to be enough Duals on the board.

If you fear dreadnaughts allot, run Annul 4x. It solves your Jitte problems, Deed, Threads, Dreadnaughts, EE, Shackles and what not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by georgjorge

4c Landstill, which is the most common build, doesn't run even one basic, because they couldn't support all their differently colored spells if they did. So a resolved B2B is very good there, although they can still Deed it away with the rest of your board. UW Landstilll might run two or three basics, but they still need to hit UUWW by turn four, plus Factories, so there are going to be enough Duals on the board.

---

UW(x) Landstill is running at least 4 up to 7 basics lately (I checked the lists from december on www.germagic.de which might not be representative of course) often in 3 colors to support EE. In Game 2 when you could board B2B they already know your plan and will go for the basics first. For 4c it is 0-3 so B2B seems better. I would say that the split right now is 50/50 between 4c and UW(x) so B2B could be helpful in half of the landstill matches. But still the question is, is it really necessary in a matchup that should be in our favour already? Sure it is a good card but do you really need it? Wouldnt it be better to save the slots for cards that turn other matchups around?

Are there a lot of Landstill around you or something? Around me 50% of the decks are Aggro Loam, so I save at least 2 slots for back to basics. Just because it helps against landstill doesn't mean it is there specifically for them.

Also, just because it doesn't completely shut down landstill doesn't mean it is any worse. B2B shuts down the factories, so they have to rely on whatever other win conditions they have, thus making them much weaker.

Is there any chance that for the under construction first post we could get detailed matchups, and things like mulligan/keep, and first turn plays against given archetypes.

For example: opening hand of vial island island wasteland cursecatcher daze and LoA. What's your first move on the play? On the draw, drawing, say, a Wake Trasher?

I'm doing some playtesting, but the Legacy GP will be my first legacy event, so I want to be prepared as possible, and that means picking all you brilliant folk's brains as much as possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wrath_Of_Houlding

Is there any chance that for the under construction first post we could get detailed matchups, and things like mulligan/keep, and first turn plays against given archetypes.

For example: opening hand of vial island island wasteland cursecatcher daze and LoA. What's your first move on the play? On the draw, drawing, say, a Wake Trasher?

I'm doing some playtesting, but the Legacy GP will be my first legacy event, so I want to be prepared as possible, and that means picking all you brilliant folk's brains as much as possible.

---

Well, Finn updated the first post but it sucks. I wouldn't play that deck for the life of me, but hey, less people playing my deck the better I do. Honestly though, don't play that one.

Anyway, it looks like updates to the opening post come few and far between, so if you have questions just post em here.

On a hand like that I would always play first turn vial. You have a perfect ramp (cursecatcher -> LoA) to abuse, and a daze in hand for whatever you may not want to see them play. Island, vial, go... Daze if needed, ramp vial, draw, waste if possible, go... EOT (or bad spell you don't want to see) vial in cursecatcher. Ramp to 2 etc...

More intresting hand analysis would be hands like:
Island, Wasteland/Mutavault, Stifle, Vial or Cursecatcher.

Going first, Vial would be played but if I only have Stifle/Cursecatcher, what do I do then? Play Island and hopeing to crack a fetch? If he dosen't, what happens in my next turn if I don't have another Island?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elof

More intresting hand analysis would be hands like:
Island, Wasteland/Mutavault, Stifle, Vial or Cursecatcher.

Going first, Vial would be played but if I only have Stifle/Cursecatcher, what do I do then? Play Island and hopeing to crack a fetch? If he dosen't, what happens in my next turn if I don't have another Island?

---

So you have 4 lands, a vial, a cursecatcher, and a stifle? I would almost definitely mulligan unless you know what they are playing and know that your muta/wasteland are going to be huge. In general you'll see at the least 2 folk in your opening hand, or something along the lines of mutavault + standstill or vial + standstill or Relic + deck that relies on graveyards to win.

Obviously you would know what to do if you knew what you were playing against, but in general if you had a decent hand and first turn options were vial, cursecatcher, or save mana for stifle, then I would never save the mana for the stifle. A lot of times people have more than just fetches in their hands. If the opponent is smart they won't crack the fetch unless absolutely necessary, meaning if they're waiting to brainstorm, they wait till the end of your next turn. At that point you would have to leave a land up too, so you've essentially wasted a full turn of land drops to hopefully ruin their landbase enough by stifling. If they're mana flooded it gets even worse, so I would almost always just play the vial first.

I meant in my example that you have 2 (perhaps 3 lands) and Vial, Cursecatcher and/or Stifle and then the rest of cards blank (for example Merrow + FoW).

But regardless, I agre with you. I never go for first turn stifle for fetch unless I know what I'm up against or have any other reason to belive that it is the right play. Any good player knows that you don't simply crack a fetch as soon as you can and if you try to go for first turn stifle and the opponent plays other land/don't crack then it is often pretty obvious that you have Stifle in hand and you just lost a turn and that is not good for a tempo deck.

Hey folks. I am still reading this thread every day. I am glad to post whatever deck is the consensus best build. But not only is this deck moving rather quickly, I don't see a consensus. If any of you have any info for the opening post, I reiterate - IM it to me. I have accumulated an abundance of info on matchups on two versions of this deck, but it's all crap now because the deck plays radically different with such different builds.

So, if you guys could just be a little less productive, I would gladly perform proper maintenance on the OP. :smile:

Also, play the Cursecatcher against an unknown opponent. He is both the offense and defense in one. All the other cards are limited. And don't sac him early. He is best as a looming threat to counter.

I'd almost always drop the Vial immediately. So many decks hate seeing Vial that I'm not even going to go through all of them, or all the ways Vial is an almost first turn "I win". It's even cooler if they have to Force your turn 1 Vial.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elof

More intresting hand analysis would be hands like:
Island, Wasteland/Mutavault, Stifle, Vial or Cursecatcher.

Going first, Vial would be played but if I only have Stifle/Cursecatcher, what do I do then? Play Island and hopeing to crack a fetch? If he dosen't, what happens in my next turn if I don't have another Island?

---

Easy. Just draw a standstill

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

Are there a lot of Landstill around you or something? Around me 50% of the decks are Aggro Loam, so I save at least 2 slots for back to basics. Just because it helps against landstill doesn't mean it is there specifically for them.

Also, just because it doesn't completely shut down landstill doesn't mean it is any worse. B2B shuts down the factories, so they have to rely on whatever other win conditions they have, thus making them much weaker.

---

Yeah there is a lot of Landstill. I play at least 1 every tourney (well almost). I was just wondering cause we have a lot of SB choices to make which would be the most potent (in my meta). Maybe I should make a list of all possible choices and impact on game (kind of value matrix) and figure it out.

Considering Stifle on your opening hand. At least Game 2 opponents will be extra careful (if relevant for their deck) and expect that you will try to stifle their Fetchlands. They will wait for your last Island to be tapped. Pretending to have stifle then is a good idea though you should keep on developing your board position.