[Deck] Spanish Inquisition (B/x Storm Combo)

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

Looking back at my earlier post on Slithermuse, I can see that I was a little one-sided. Yes, Slithermuse is only the optimal play in a very narrow range of circumstances (Pact used, only 4 mana floating). However, it is also worth conceding that Slithermuse is also the most generally available play. So if you only want to devote one slot to a tutor target, Slithermuse is a reasonable choice. Every time you tutor for it you'll probably wish it was something else, but it will probably be a different 'something else' that you wish for each time. SM covers all the bases, albeit not optimally.

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Yesterday I was doing a bit of goldfishing (finally got the deck sleeved up, a bit busy at the moment) think I mulled a couple of times to 5 where passing the turn and then going of on turn 2 (because the scry card was important). Althought everytime, I ended up on 2 life, very dangerous. But one time I had a couple of D4's in hand, DR, mana source, Infernal Tutor and LED. 2 option, try to pull the D4, but with LED cracking in response in the hope you can go further (risky, tried it, failed) or the other play, which I tried (left the same 4 cards on top), was LED, DR, IT --> crack LED for blue, fetch slithermuse and D7. Went off on that first turn. I think if you have the option to D4 with one mana (preferably black) backup, sure, it's better, but other than that, this line of play on the first turn is 'always' paying of. I like it.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

However, showing a blue player our hand really, really hurts. And getting our initial mana sources countered (or discarded) really, really hurts. Taxing effects (Thalia, et al) on LG really, really hurts. I'll probably mess about with this a bit, but I would be interested to know if anyone has already gone down this road.

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I think the main reason is that by playing belcher, the VC's are suboptimal, otherwise, be sure to try it, but like you said, the times I emptied my hand, or got that dryad Arbor (when I already played a land) for storm, thinning and activating belcher, does the trick.

So SB:
4 carpets (against all blueish decks)
4 blooms (against blue/control/taxing decks, skip them against chalice decks?)
2 EtW (against control decks or to race taxing decks)
1 forest (going to try it, instead of taiga, seems a solid choice)
2 Veil's (against counters)
2 Tomb of Urami (as an out against chalice decks? extra: veil can also protect your demon against possible blue bounce or fatal push, if they would be mad enough to keep it in)

So for example, against a UW control deck I might try:
+4 carpets, +4 bloom, +1 forest, +2 veil, +2 EtW (not against miracles..) (and if I'm kinky, and I know they remove STP, Tomb of Urami :-D)
-4 pact, -4 culling, -1 dryad Arbor, -1 DRS, -1 wild cantor, -1 IGG, -1 Tendrils

Against Aggro loam:
+2 Tomb of Urami, +1 Forest, +2 EtW
-1 IGG (lot's of gravehate), -2 pact, -2 culling

Against DnT:
+4 Blooms, +1 Forest, +2 EtW
-4 Pact, -3 Culling

Any comments?

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Originally Posted by Xod

I think the main reason is that by playing belcher, the VC's are suboptimal, otherwise, be sure to try it, but like you said, the times I emptied my hand, or got that dryad Arbor (when I already played a land) for storm, thinning and activating belcher, does the trick.

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I should have been clearer.

I take it for granted that I would not be siding in Belchers if I am running actual lands in the deck. Between Autumn's Veil and Xantid Swarm we can still drop a series of 'must answer' bombs, and we would also be able to run Tombs as uncounterable early pressure. The exact nature of the sideboard is something that I can work on later, if the compromises in G1 prove to be acceptable.

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So SB:
4 carpets (against all blueish decks)
4 blooms (against blue/control/taxing decks, skip them against chalice decks?)
2 EtW (against control decks or to race taxing decks)
1 forest (going to try it, instead of taiga, seems a solid choice)
2 Veil's (against counters)
2 Tomb of Urami (as an out against chalice decks? extra: veil can also protect your demon against possible blue bounce or fatal push, if they would be mad enough to keep it in)

So for example, against a UW control deck I might try:
+4 carpets, +4 bloom, +1 forest, +2 veil, +2 EtW (not against miracles..) (and if I'm kinky, and I know they remove STP, Tomb of Urami :-D)
-4 pact, -4 culling, -1 dryad Arbor, -1 DRS, -1 wild cantor, -1 IGG, -1 Tendrils

Against Aggro loam:
+2 Tomb of Urami, +1 Forest, +2 EtW
-1 IGG (lot's of gravehate), -2 pact, -2 culling

Against DnT:
+4 Blooms, +1 Forest, +2 EtW
-4 Pact, -3 Culling

Any comments?

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I'm not sure what you DnT sideboard is trying to do. It looks like you are going to lose masses of speed against a deck that loves to drop multiple hatebears starting on turn 2.

I get that EtW and Pact are a non-bo, but surely -2 Pact +2 EtW gives you that option while not preventing you from winning in the 'traditional' way with the right opening hand.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

I'm not sure what you DnT sideboard is trying to do. It looks like you are going to lose masses of speed against a deck that loves to drop multiple hatebears starting on turn 2.

I get that EtW and Pact are a non-bo, but surely -2 Pact +2 EtW gives you that option while not preventing you from winning in the 'traditional' way with the right opening hand.

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I follow you, but the blooms can make 'sure' that you have the mana to go of against them, even through Thalia, isn't a garanty though.

Now that I think about it, you are right, -2 Pact +2 EtW is a better plan. I thought that Tomb might also be an option, since the will probably side STP out, but they still have chump blockers + flickerwisp.

On the other things, no comments? What against storm(ANT/TES)? Just keep everything the same? Since we 'should' be faster. Although carpets look appealing, especially since they have discard that can set us back. Carpets over Pact here (or a 2/2 split Pact/Culling?) to build resilience? On the other hand, the maindeck, is freakishly fast.

I can't comment on the Loam matchup because I've never played it. I think Carpets are wrong against storm, though.

Carpet is for playing the attrition game. They (our opponent) either gives us a ton of mana every turn, or they just try and whittle us down with Delver or something, with only one Island (and probably a bunch of fetchlands) in play. In other words, they have to go slower, or they help us go faster.

Storm, though, just doesn't care about either of those things if they are going off anyway. They will happily watch us side out acceleration and business to bring in Carpets. That allows them to focus their discard on the stuff in our hand that is actually relevant.

If you want to side something in against them, consider Past in Flames. That turns back on all the stuff they made you pitch earlier. Or Leyline of Sanctity, for the lols. Shuts off their win conditions AND their disruption.

Edit: A coincidentally relevant comment from the Belcher thread.

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I see cutting the Reverent Silence, Hull Breach, Pyroclasm for other things as these are the least wished for cards and fall into niche roles. One card that has been doing well for me is Leyline of Sanctity. I have been running 3 to good results against Discard because I find it is the most common way people try and hate us out of the board.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

I can't comment on the Loam matchup because I've never played it.

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I have some experience playing vs Loam, but not as a Storm/SI player.

Most of the Loam decklist is completely irrelevant vs us due to our speed and lack of targets:
Dark Confidant, Life From the Loam, Knight from the Reliquary, Punishing Fire, GSZ (needs 3 mana to tutor Teeg and their accel is Mox Diamond and GSZ for Dryad Arbor only), Toxic Deluge, Liliana of the Veil, Sylvan Library, Abrupt Decay.

While at the same time they have a few very powerful hoser cards in the deck list vs us:
4x Chalice (hopefully at 1 in g1, because 0 is worse)

4x Mox Diamond acceleration + hatebears:
MD/SB 1x Gaddock Teeg (typically MD)
SB 0-2x Ethersworn Canonist
SB 0-2x Containment Priest (they can bring this in vs tokens)
SB 0-3x Thalia 1.0
SB 2+ Thoughtseize, assuming they are not running MD 2+ Collective Brutality already.

Tomb of Urami is a risky move IMO because they have 4x Wasteland, 1 Karakas, 1 Maze of Ith and 4x KotR for finding the Karakas/Maze which they are likely to keep in because KotR is their best clock, Karakas is a W mana source and much of their sb is useless in the mu. They can also make a Marit Lage token to block, and they might be forced to leave a few Lilianas in because it sucks less than most of their sideboard vs us, which can accidentally kill the Urami token.

Against most Loam builds, us bringing in 4x Leyline of the Void + 1 or more Helm of Obedience would be a strong play. Teeg still hits us badly, but they are likely to run only 1 in the 75. They can tutor it up with GSZ, though. Otherwise, Empty the Warrens on the play (before they get to drop hatebears or chalice) and Goblin Charbelcher on the draw (which can get through everything except Teeg, note that Spirit Guides help vs Thalia 1.0) seem like solid plans to me. If you manage to land a Charbelcher early before their Teeg lands, even if you fizzle on the first try or lack some mana, I think their only "out" is GSZ for 1of Reclamation Sage/Qasali Pridemage, which is slow at 4 mana. Assuming they knew enough about our deck to SB in the Sage in the first place (Pridemage can be in MD, though).

I goldfish'd a few dozen hands last night with Verdant Catacomb in place of Land Grant. Mostly there was no difference, and a couple of times I had to work slightly harder to reach lethal storm. Only in one game did being unable to get Hellbent turn a win into a loss.

I need to actually run some tests against blue decks, though. I'm not particularly keen to drop the money needed on a playset of VC unless it has a meaningful impact on our blue matchups.

Good points. Dammit, that still doesn't solve my sideboard issues. :tongue:

Maybe -2 tomb +2 thoughtseize, don't know yet, willingly to test the tombs out. Mostly because they need to answer it immediately, and if they are trying to do that, we can still go off the traditional way.

Karakas/Maze is an out, but they can only tutor for it with knight or draw it naturally, and tutoring it with knight is as soon as turn 3. Which mean they will probably focus a bit more to stop the demon than to disrupt us. Which is fine I assume. Wasteland isn't an issue, since you won't drop tomb unless you have 4 mana. Liliana and Marit Lage can also stop us. But again, if they spend their first turns to stop the demon, it gives us time to actually drop belcher or go off.

But I'm probably wrong.

4 leylines and 2 iggy's is a good out :-) but then the sideboard takes a whole different turn, to adapt to decks, that we can 'normally' beat, except for aggro loam. So maybe I can ignore it. We'll see tonight if I face him :-)

You could consider running 4x grave titan and some other kinds of acceleration. Might be okay. I can try to goldfish some draws and try.

another transformation i considered was:

4 dark confidant
3 monastery mentor
1 savannah
2 bayou
3 cavern of souls
2 abrupt decay

goldfished a bunch. i'm not sure i like dark confidant so much in here. would maybe just go for a 4 mentor cavern package. maybe some cabal therapy would compliment this.

would propose the following

4 cavern of souls
1 savannah
4 monastery mentor
4 cabal therapy
2 magus of the will (or abrupt decay)

I've been testing my anti-blue sideboard, which is essentially the standard PSI approach to blue:

4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Autumn's Veil
4 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Forest

This has worked reasonably well against control decks, but it has been failing miserably against tempo decks. Most of the cards in this sideboard need to pair up to actually do anything - Autumn's Veil does nothing unless I can immediately follow it up with an actual threat (ie, Goblin Charbelcher). Tempo decks don't give you the time to try this more than once, and holding cards back to build up a critical mass can be especially problematic if they are also attacking your hand with discard effects.

I'm going to mess about with a traditional 'man plan', but I wondered if anyone had a sideboard plan that they liked against tempo.

you could try running 4 swarm and then that would require the tempo deck to deal with it immediately or potentially lose. you should give that mentor plan a try if you have some time. (the last one i mentioned) the 2 magus could be anything else.

Went 2-2 last Friday.
First match, I could start, but I had to mull to 5, passed the turn, because I needed one extra card. (had a culling package ready)
He played land, mox diamond, chalice on 1 (great, another loam player) I tried to do anything, but scooped rather quickly.
Game 2, went off turn 1 (yaay)
Game 3, he started with a thoughtseize, I could go off turn 2 or 3, he GSZ to teeg (fuck). Ok, I still had the 'demon'-plan, had 2 cabal rituals, some enough mana on the board and a IT. So I could create 6 mana --> IT --> tomb. The only thing I needed was something I could play out of my hand, normally not a problem, drew 1 of the 2 summoners pact still remaining... So I cast it to pay for it the next turn. So that single card set me back 2 turns... At that time he played a Ethersworn Cannonist, and the turn after a knight, game over...
0-1

Second match: Burn
Won 2-1, miscounted in game 2, and should have stopped the chain on time, to still go off the turn after. This is clearly lack of experience. Went 2 times off with belcher.
1-1

Match 3: Grixis Delver
Went of rather fast and he didn't have force.
game 2: he didn't play his daze agressively enough, and he fetched into islands for my carpet, big mistake, could go off easily. 2-0
2-1

Match 4: Miracles
Was actually a very tight game, but had to many counters and didn't see a veil. 0-2 was good as a learning experience. Blooms also helped here, but due too to many counters, I couldn't get through.

My sideboard:
4 carpets
4 blooms
2 veils
2 EtW
2 tomb of urami
1 forest

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

I should have been clearer.

I take it for granted that I would not be siding in Belchers if I am running actual lands in the deck. Between Autumn's Veil and Xantid Swarm we can still drop a series of 'must answer' bombs, and we would also be able to run Tombs as uncounterable early pressure. The exact nature of the sideboard is something that I can work on later, if the compromises in G1 prove to be acceptable.



I'm not sure what you DnT sideboard is trying to do. It looks like you are going to lose masses of speed against a deck that loves to drop multiple hatebears starting on turn 2.

I get that EtW and Pact are a non-bo, but surely -2 Pact +2 EtW gives you that option while not preventing you from winning in the 'traditional' way with the right opening hand.

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If you're going down the land route then I think you might be better off building an Ad Nauseam deck by cutting the Pacts/ESGs and Draw 4s for fetchlands, Green Sun's Zeniths, Xantid Swarms and Diabolic Intent. It's pretty neat when you can use your acceleration and disruption as the fuel for your Culling/Diabolic and the fetclands, GSZs and Swarms are all generally more useful and less all in than the Land Grants, Pacts, SSGs etc. I'm picturing a sort of BUG TES like list, which would be interesting because even tho' I think it'd probably be worse than TES the U/G and B/G fetch manabase would let you bluff Daze.

Like

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Xantid Swarm
4 LED
4 Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
14 Lands

You could even use that kind of shitty colorless Xantid Swarm or add more business and acceleration by cutting Git Probes? But yeah, if you aren't playing Belchers then lands are just better than L.Grants. Personally, I still really like the old version of the deck with 7 swamps and kobolds myself.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

If you're going down the land route then I think you might be better off building an Ad Nauseam deck by cutting the Pacts/ESGs and Draw 4s for fetchlands, Green Sun's Zeniths, Xantid Swarms and Diabolic Intent. It's pretty neat when you can use your acceleration and disruption as the fuel for your Culling/Diabolic and the fetclands, GSZs and Swarms are all generally more useful and less all in than the Land Grants, Pacts, SSGs etc. I'm picturing a sort of BUG TES like list, which would be interesting because even tho' I think it'd probably be worse than TES the U/G and B/G fetch manabase would let you bluff Daze.

Like

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Diabolic Intent
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Xantid Swarm
4 LED
4 Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
14 Lands

You could even use that kind of shitty colorless Xantid Swarm or add more business and acceleration by cutting Git Probes? But yeah, if you aren't playing Belchers then lands are just better than L.Grants. Personally, I still really like the old version of the deck with 7 swamps and kobolds myself.

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That looks... really, really interesting. And intimidating, because I'm not actually a terribly good innovator, and that looks like it needs a great deal of work.

My first thought is that 4 Xantid is probably wrong. Just as we run SP as a toolbox, we probably want to do the same with GSZ. So one Xantid, one Tukatounge Thallid, and possibly a Wild Cantor. And Dryad Arbor, of course.

Nothing to stop us bringing in more from the side for the U matchup, of course.

Dryad Arbor is 1 of the 14 lands, however I disagree 100% with MD tool-boxing for Green Sun's Zenith. Xantid Swarm, regardless of removal, is the only other green creature you want in order to make all of your draws as relevant as possible. Post board, you can SB an artifact hate creature for Chalice etc. or a fatty for a man plan, but that is as far as I would go. You want to just get your Lanowar Elf turn and then hit your Culling or Intent and go off. You shouldn't need amything but Petal, Ritual, Led after Nauseam to finish ideally.

The only thing I doubt is Probe, because there is no discard but information is always useful.

I would just test what I posted first, it goes off pretty soundly on turn 2 to maybe 3. I had a really similar deck with Hermits and Tops, but I think without Top you have to play blue for consistency and the b/g Hermit/basic manabase just doesn't work with cantrips. I mean it's a bad TES, but the look on their faces when you attack with Xantid and then sac it for a T2 win lol.

Fair enough.

Is Veteran Explorer a thing here?

It was, when the deck had Sensei's Diving Tops to filter it could use Veteran Explorer with Diabolic Intent, Culling the Weak and Cabal Therapy to stay in B/G and build a mana base with basic lands. After SDT was banned tho, I don't think it's possible to exlcude blue, so the Tops and Explorers became cantrips and the Cabal Therapies became Xantid Swarms to stream line the deck into a T2 protected win.

You have wiggle room if you cut Probe to experiment, a 2nd Ad Nauseam, a Chrome Mox, an Empty the Warrens etc. I all tried but the deck has been mostly for laughs.

BTW, isn't 1 or 2 fatal pushes or abrupt decays interesting?

Push mainly against hate bears. Decay as an out to CotV/teeg/thalia/needle on Belcher /...

I gave the BUG ANT deck a spin last night, and it was pretty cute. I quickly felt like I preferred Chrome Mox to Gitaxian Probe, simply to make Ad Nauseam better. It's surprising how often the deck will go off turn two under the protection of Xantid Swarm.

Still messing about with PSI sideboard, though. The ANT deck got me wondering about something similar for PSI. Instead of taking out Culling the Weak, what about -4 Culling targets, +4 Xantid Swarm, -4 Pact, +4 Veil?

In other words, leave us much of the original deck concept in place as possible. I'll do some testing and report back.

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BTW, isn't 1 or 2 fatal pushes or abrupt decays interesting?

Push mainly against hate bears. Decay as an out to CotV/teeg/thalia/needle on Belcher /...

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PSI is never going to be an 'answers' deck. Without blue cantrips, we can't consistently find answers quickly enough to be relevant. We are far better off just dropping threats and being very, very fast.

SI-TES, of course, can take a different approach, thanks to Burning Wish and Cabal Therapy. Note that actual TES still does plays the 'answer' game better, because it runs those same cards, AND blue cantrips, but at the cost of being a half turn slower.

Still not a big Xantid Swarm fan, but I'll replace the 4 blooms with swarms just to try out.

UW sideboard guide then becomes:

+4 carpets, +4 swarm, +1 forest, +2 veil, +2 EtW (not against miracles..)
-4 pact, -4 culling, -1 dryad Arbor, -1 DRS, -1 wild cantor, -1 IGG, -1 Tendrils

Your plan of keeping culling in appeals me (and sounds very logical), but what to remove then? Not putting the EtW in? Removing an extra Belcher? Removing a slithermuser or SSG?

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Originally Posted by Xod

Still not a big Xantid Swarm fan, but I'll replace the 4 blooms with swarms just to try out.

UW sideboard guide then becomes:

+4 carpets, +4 swarm, +1 forest, +2 veil, +2 EtW (not against miracles..)
-4 pact, -4 culling, -1 dryad Arbor, -1 DRS, -1 wild cantor, -1 IGG, -1 Tendrils

Your plan of keeping culling in appeals me (and sounds very logical), but what to remove then? Not putting the EtW in? Removing an extra Belcher? Removing a slithermuser or SSG?

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The classic PSI sideboard is very carefully designed, as you would expect from Vacrix. The Carpet of Flowers gives you a ton of mana against slow control that allows you to play 'bombs' (D4, Belcher) while voiding soft counters, and without having to invest other cards to cast them. They keep having to throw away 2 cards to stop you from casting your single card, and you win via card advantage/attrition. It's no accident that Belcher casts nicely through Counterbalance.

However, when I play against modern tempo decks, I'm rarely get more than a single mana from Carpet, and often don't get any. This means that I have to invest other cards to cast Belcher (ie, Dark Ritual, etc). As soon as you have to do this the attrition model falls apart, even ignoring the fact that they have a much faster clock than they used to.

Belcher is a very expensive win condition, requiring 7 mana. If I've successfully stuck a Swarm or a Veil, is it actually the best win con? I'm not sure. But right now I'm feeling like I'd be better of transitioning into Great Sable Stag and friends than Belcher.

I do agree that bringing in EtW could be a very good idea for those shorter combo chains, but I want to nail down the protection package before focusing too much on the actual win cons.

If you're discussing Pact SI, I think your MD protection package is Autumn's Veil just so you have another Green card for your Skyshroud Cutter, the problem with Xantid Swarm is that you have too little of reliable green sources to cast it compared to Autumn's Veil since Summoner's Pact is a no go.

If you're discussing SITES, I think it's a poor choice considering MD Stifle and SB Flusterstorms are in vogue in aggro-control right now, Empty the Warrens just doesn't offer the defensive coverage to storm decks it used to.

If you're discussing BUG Storm, I think it's fine to cut Gitaxian Probe, Xantid Swarm doesn't care how many cards they have in their hand so you can make the deck redundant with a 2nd Ad Nauseam, a 15th land and Chrome Mox(es). Also I think the Fetchland, Dryad Arbor, Green Sun's Zenith and Xantid Swarm package could possibly fuel the Draw 4 deck, but the issue with the draw 4 deck is that it needs to be able to cost effectively play a 2nd creature durring the draw 4 chains to cast a 2nd Culling and you can't do that so well without Summoner's Pact or Kobolds. With Nauseam you just have to get one Culling off, but anway something like ...

4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
8 Draw 4's
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
7 G Fetch
3 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

Maybe there is some way to support the D4 chains with like ESG?

Has anybody playtested a list with both Summoner's Pact and Burning Wish? Essentially it's about taking some Belcher-esque elements into PSI without the MD warping too much as a whole.

+ Easier to pilot for storm newbies like myself
+ Provides more outs to Chalice of the Void, especially versus nonblue Chalice decks (Eldrazi, monored stompy, loam) by e.g. BW-> Deconstruct
+ Provides more outs to hatebears (Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist) with BW-> Pyroclasm
+ Provides more outs to Leyline of Sanctity with BW-> Reverent Silence and BW->EtW
+ BW->Tendrils works in several storm chains where you have enough mana fir the kill but IT->Tendrils is impossible because you have a second IT, GCB and/or D4s stuck in your hand which "fizzles" the IT
+ Can run less "kill spells" (ToA) and more tutors (BW) in MD, which seems like a plus to me since the deck mulligans better thanks to BW + LED synergy
+ Possibility to short chain BW->EtW in g1 (could later turn out to be a useless feature or waste of SB space, though)
+ Less lose-the-game fizzling after resolved Pacts based on my personal goldfishing
+ More consistent t2 kills based on my personal goldfishing
+ Still faster than Belcher based on my personal goldfishing
+/- Less D4s in the list
- Going off BW->ToA costs extra mana compared to "naturally" drawing the ToA
- Less redundant black vards to Imprint in the list
- Wishboard takes up SB slots
- Red mana for BW can be problematic
- Slightly slower overall than SI without BW, although more consistent due to less fizzling


I have been goldfishing with the following:

Sorcery Tutors (7)
3x Burning Wish
3x Infernal Tutor
1x Dark Petition

Sorcery D4s (6)
3x Cruel Bargain
3x Infernal Contract

Other Sorcery (6)
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
4x Land Grant
1x Tendrils of Agony

Artifact (14)
4x Chrome Mox
2x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

Creature (7)
1x Deathrite Shaman
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Skullwinder
1x Wild Cantor

Instant (16)
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Dark Ritual
4x Summoner's Pact

Land (2)
1x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor

MD flex slot (2)
1x Slithermuse
1x Tinder Wall
...any alternative flex slot recommendations?

Sideboard (17) - trying to narrow this down to 15

Wishboard (7)
1x Balance of Power (Useless?)
1x Deconstruct (is Shattering Spree better?)
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Infernal Tutor (for when you need that extra +1 storm after BW resolves. Could be 4 IT - 2 BW in MD to save 1 SB slot? Or stupidly enough have 1 extra BW in the SB in this slot?)
1x Pyroclasm
1x Reverent Silence (waste ot SB space ... or super useful vs Leyline of Sanctity?)
1x Tendrils of Agony

Others (10)
4x Lotus Bloom
2x Autumn's Veil
4x Carpet of Flowers

While I've not tested the list you posted, why would you play this over SI-TES if you want to run burning wish?

Pact shuts out BW > EtW. You also have a harder time making R because you can't imprint Kobolds. You also lose out on the Kobold/EtW/Cabal Therapy interaction for clearing counters and protecting your goblins.

It seems to me that SI-TES has all the advantages you are looking for (plus others, like an actual mana base, if you want it), and fewer of the disadvantages.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

While I've not tested the list you posted, why would you play this over SI-TES if you want to run burning wish?

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Because I have a "gut feeling" that access to GCB lines of play in g1/g2 on the draw against random non-blue storm hate (CotV, Ancient Tomb into Thorn of Amethyst/Warping Wail) can be beneficial in my FLGS metagame. Cabal Therapy on the draw is too little, too late.

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Originally Posted by Karhumies

Because I have a "gut feeling" that access to GCB lines of play in g1/g2 on the draw against random non-blue storm hate (CotV, Ancient Tomb into Thorn of Amethyst/Warping Wail) can be beneficial in my FLGS metagame. Cabal Therapy on the draw is too little, too late.

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Well, tuning for your meta is as good a reason as any, I suppose.

Alright, here's a more considered (albeit, untested) response.

1) If you want to generate R, get serious about it. Drop ESG for SSG.

2) Pact seems wrong for this approach, especially if you have dropped ESG (above). Pact requires a 'win now' approach, whereas both Belcher and EtW want to win over a turn or two. I really don't see how Pact is optimal if you want to run both of these win conditions. I'd lose the Pact package and run Kobolds. They imprint for R, but also make your combo chains smoother, as CtW is +3 mana (in PSI CtW is only +2 mana if you have already made your land drop or can't find Arbor).

3) If you can generate R, Past in Flames is simply amazing. Unlike some of our other tutor targets, PiF is still good when you draw into it mid combo. Even if you don't have the mana for it, you can often crack an LED or two, flash it back, and then win the game. I've not been able to make it work consistently in PSI because in your opening hand it is just as dead as everything else, but doesn't even have a useful imprint. You don't have that problem.

4) If you drop Pact, Slithermuse is probably better as EtW. Between IGG/PiF (for when you can float mana) and EtW (for when you can't), I'm not sure when you actually want to tutor for Slithermuse.

Actually, I think that could be very strong. You could board in Belchers, Therapies and Duress against blue, while still having space for a bit of a wishboard.

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

Alright, here's a more considered (albeit, untested) response.

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Thanks for the input!

Yes, U Slithermuse has been horrible in a list with BGR mana colors. Dropping it for an on-color card (EtW) seems sensible.

Pact has been half of the time tutor for Dryad Arbor for CtW target, half of the time tutor for ESG/Tinder Wall for extra mana, but occasionally tutor for Wild Cantor to turn G mana into B mana. Losing out the Wild cantor tutoring might hurt a little bit. Especially since Pact into Cantor or Tinder Wall has been an excellent method to get 5->7 cards in the gy to get threshold for Cabal Ritual, which allows easy going off from there onwards.

I had not really considered running Kobolds before as imprintable CtW targets and replacing ESG with SSG before. This definitely sounds goldfish-worthy. Suddenly, the deck might not need green mana anymore, so I guess I need to re-think the mana base as well.

Hello, I am new to this archetype and wanted to take a couple decklists for a spin. What are the current couple of major variants and some quick cliffs notes on them?

Check first post, lots of good stuff.

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Originally Posted by MDHackbert

Hello, I am new to this archetype and wanted to take a couple decklists for a spin. What are the current couple of major variants and some quick cliffs notes on them?

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Broadly, there are three viable versions of SI: P(act)SI, (Land)G(rant)SI, and B(urning Wish)SI/SI-TES.

You can find more details, and base lists, in the initial primer, but PSI is green/black, and is the fastest, most all in version. It is also considered the hardest to pilot; in addition to hideously complex lines of play, failed storm chains often just lose you the game, thanks to Summoner's Pact.

GSI is also green/black, but also runs a large number of 'tall men' - 0 casting cost artifact creatures that act as early game blockers and fuel for the Culling Engine.

BSI is the 'slowest' (with an mere 50% estimated turn 1 win rate for the best pilots), but runs black/red with Kobolds instead of tallmen. This allows the deck to play Burning Wish (much like TES, which is why it is often called SI-TES), and so has much better odds of dealing with random hate in games 2 & 3, thanks to a modest wish-board. Because Empty the Warrens allows for some shorter storm chains, it is generally considered the easiest list to play, albeit only in comparison to other SI lists.

Edit - Here is an old SI-TES tournament report that gives you an idea of how the deck plays: http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2011/0...stuart-taylor/

Thanks, I'll check that out.

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk

If you're new to the deck I'd suggest,

4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
7 Swamp
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual

The problem with Pact SI, as innovative as it is, is Land Grant will always give villains a free Gitxian Probe and turn their discard and counter spells into land destruction. If you learn to play the deck by using lands and creatures, then you'll learn how to slow play, win small and kill with a single or double Tendrils of Agony. You also give yourself more ways to win, by being able to SB in Empty the Warrens and/or Past in Flames and depending on whether or not you want to risk Stifle and Wasteland you can use a 4 Fetch Land/3 Dual Land mana base in order to side in answers from either green or red.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

If you're new to the deck I'd suggest,

4 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
7 Swamp
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual

The problem with Pact SI, as innovative as it is, is Land Grant will always give villains a free Gitxian Probe and turn their discard and counter spells into land destruction. If you learn to play the deck by using lands and creatures, then you'll learn how to slow play, win small and kill with a single or double Tendrils of Agony. You also give yourself more ways to win, by being able to SB in Empty the Warrens and/or Past in Flames and depending on whether or not you want to risk Stifle and Wasteland you can use a 4 Fetch Land/3 Dual Land mana base in order to side in answers from either green or red.

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So the Kobolds over tallmen here are to be able to exile to mox, instead of not, and then also providing red from mox for SB cards?

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Originally Posted by MDHackbert

So the Kobolds over tallmen here are to be able to exile to mox, instead of not, and then also providing red from mox for SB cards?

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Basically; Swamp, Chrome Mox and imprint Crimson Kobold, Cabal Ritual and Draw 4 is a line of play which makes the original list more reliable - imprinting for red mana is only relevant if you're MDing Empty the Warrens over Ill Gotten Gains or you're SBing in Empty the Warrens over Tendrils of Agony. There are transformational SBs that can take advantage of being on the play, for instance you can SB out Ill Gotten Gains, 3 Tendrils of Agony and 4 Cabal Therapy for 4 Empty the Warrens and 4 Simian Spirit Guide and put them on Force of Will or no Force of Will where kobolds imprinting for red mana is crucial. The MD Ill Gotten Gains is training wheels vs fair decks and you can protect the loop vs counter spells with a Kobold and Cabal Therapy, but if you play vs more blue decks then you'll want MD Empty the Warrens for game one and then Past in Flames for game 2 so you can mix up your Infernal Tutor strategy vs their hate.

I think the original list is better than Pact SI, it just used Land Grant and artifact creatures for no really good reason - giving away Gitaxian Probes, turning discard and counter spells into land destruction and Bayou -> Cabal Therapy exposing you to Wasteland isn't worth another point for Storm and Threshold, imprinting for green mana or playing Goblin Charbelcher.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Basically; Swamp, Chrome Mox and imprint Crimson Kobold, Cabal Ritual and Draw 4 is a line of play which makes the original list more reliable - imprinting for red mana is only relevant if you're MDing Empty the Warrens over Ill Gotten Gains or you're SBing in Empty the Warrens over Tendrils of Agony. There are transformational SBs that can take advantage of being on the play, for instance you can SB out Ill Gotten Gains, 3 Tendrils of Agony and 4 Cabal Therapy for 4 Empty the Warrens and 4 Simian Spirit Guide and put them on Force of Will or no Force of Will where kobolds imprinting for red mana is crucial. The MD Ill Gotten Gains is training wheels vs fair decks and you can protect the loop vs counter spells with a Kobold and Cabal Therapy, but if you play vs more blue decks then you'll want MD Empty the Warrens for game one and then Past in Flames for game 2 so you can mix up your Infernal Tutor strategy vs their hate.

I think the original list is better than Pact SI, it just used Land Grant and artifact creatures for no really good reason - giving away Gitaxian Probes, turning discard and counter spells into land destruction and Bayou -> Cabal Therapy exposing you to Wasteland isn't worth another point for Storm and Threshold, imprinting for green mana or playing Goblin Charbelcher.

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The real question is if you care about Goblin Charbelcher. If you don't, you win a lot by just playing 6-8 lands instead of 2 lands + 4 bayouLand Grant. Tall Men enabling Mox Opal and Therapy flashback are non-trivial. Outside of IMS availability (which skipping belcher or playing Tallman + mox opal or Pact all help with) is that relying on draw4s results in a lot of fizzling situations that put you in topdeck mode (with a ton of really bad topdecks). Tallman help with that, but not so much that it isn't among the top two problems. That's the major issue I was trying to solve with SAINT (to maximize situations where you either draw enough cards to win or put a win condition into play), which I still believe is a strictly better deck than Pact SI, Bg SI, or Br SI.

Edit: s/bayou/Land Grant/

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

Actually, I think that could be very strong. You could board in Belchers, Therapies and Duress against blue, while still having space for a bit of a wishboard.

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First goldfish attempt:

Sorcery (21)
3x Burning Wish
4x Cruel Bargain
2x Empty the Warrens
1x Ill-Gotten Gains / Past in Flames
4x Infernal Contract
2x Infernal Tutor
4x Land Grant
1x Tendrils of Agony

Artifact (13)
4x Chrome Mox
1x Goblin Charbelcher / 3rd Empty the Warrens
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

Instant (12)
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Dark Ritual

Creature (11)
3x Crimson Kobolds
3x Crookshank Kobolds
1x Manaforge Cinder / 7th Kobold
4x Simian Spirit Guide

Land (3)
2x Bayou
1x Taiga

I have to say, I am not 100% convinced. Getting the initial first black mana to go off is too much dependant on Land Grant resolving. There are way less black cards to imprint with the red cards thrown in, Taiga does not provide B mana and there is no Pact to tutor for Wild Cantor for G->B color filtering. If the opponent begins on the play with t1 spot discard to take out land grant/petal/chrome mox, way more hands turn into bricks than I would like. Not to even mention getting opened up to Wasteland and t1 moon effects (monored stompy, some big red builds) compared to running just Swamps.

I think I am off to goldfish the monoblack tallmen and kobold builds next. I don't have enough goldfish experience with those to have an informed opinion yet.

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Originally Posted by emidln

The real question is if you care about Goblin Charbelcher. If you don't, you win a lot by just playing 6-8 lands instead of 2 lands + 4 bayou. Tall Men enabling Mox Opal and Therapy flashback are non-trivial. Outside of IMS availability (which skipping belcher or playing Tallman + mox opal or Pact all help with) is that relying on draw4s results in a lot of fizzling situations that put you in topdeck mode (with a ton of really bad topdecks). Tallman help with that, but not so much that it isn't among the top two problems. That's the major issue I was trying to solve with SAINT (to maximize situations where you either draw enough cards to win or put a win condition into play), which I still believe is a strictly better deck than Pact SI, Bg SI, or Br SI.

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Don't Mox Opal lists require Vault of Whispers? I never really found Metalcraft to be consistent, and you're making concessions by exposing yourself to Wasteland with Artifactlands and not imprinting on Chrome Mox. My issue with Goblin Charbelcher is that if you eat a Stifle then you're dead to your Summoner's Pact trigger. If I'm going to play a face roll win condition, then at least Empty the Warrens changes their counter prioritization to my rituals and without Summoner's Pact you can top deck your way out of a Stifle.

I just think the costs of Land Grant up front are too prohibitive compared to the risks of the D4 chains on the back end, and it's not like Belcher doesn't fizzle either (I've flipped many a land before 20) Kobolds always imprint on Mox, Swamps never get destroyed and Goblins generally get there game 1, so it seems like the safer bet.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Don't Mox Opal lists require Vault of Whispers? I never really found Metalcraft to be consistent, and you're making concessions by exposing yourself to Wasteland with Artifactlands and not imprinting on Chrome Mox.

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I've seen Mox Opal lists ranging somewhere between
4 LED
4 Petal
4 Opal
0-4 Chrome Mox
6-10 Tallmen
0-4 Vault of Whispers
0-4 Goblin Charbelcher

Including Chrome Moxes along with the Opal (even 2-3) makes the Opal better, but there is less to imprint without the Kobolds. Opal is one of the cards which gets hit by mulliganing into less cards in hand because that makes Metalcraft harder to achieve.

Running more Tallmen (up to 10) allows running MD Cabal Therapy as a byproduct.

Casting Ad Nauseam should give you metalcraft 90+% of the time. Post Nauseam, Opals effectively become extra petals. However, running cmc3 D4s which halve your health in the same list with Nauseam is suividal.

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Originally Posted by MDHackbert

So the Kobolds over tallmen here are to be able to exile to mox, instead of not, and then also providing red from mox for SB cards?

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As Final Fortune points out, it's that they imprint at all rather than because the deck demands huge amounts of red mana. Of course, being able to imprint for red will certainly be relevant on occasion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emidln

The real question is if you care about Goblin Charbelcher. If you don't, you win a lot by just playing 6-8 lands instead of 2 lands + 4 bayou.

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I think you have articulated this very well. Having dropped Belcher from the (PSI) maindeck, and now from my sideboard, I am really, really liking the switch from Land Grant to Fetchlands. While the goldfishing is ever so slightly weaker (less storm, harder to get hellbent), in actual matches it is a huge improvement.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emidln

Outside of IMS availability (which skipping belcher or playing Tallman + mox opal or Pact all help with) is that relying on draw4s results in a lot of fizzling situations that put you in topdeck mode (with a ton of really bad topdecks). Tallman help with that, but not so much that it isn't among the top two problems. That's the major issue I was trying to solve with SAINT (to maximize situations where you either draw enough cards to win or put a win condition into play), which I still believe is a strictly better deck than Pact SI, Bg SI, or Br SI.

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This is a high variance deck, no doubt about it. While this makes the deck unattractive to genuinely talented pilots, it's less of a concern (or even a perk?) for someone of my more modest gifts. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Karhumies

I have to say, I am not 100% convinced. Getting the initial first black mana to go off is too much dependant on Land Grant resolving. There are way less black cards to imprint with the red cards thrown in, Taiga does not provide B mana and there is no Pact to tutor for Wild Cantor for G->B color filtering. If the opponent begins on the play with t1 spot discard to take out land grant/petal/chrome mox, way more hands turn into bricks than I would like. Not to even mention getting opened up to Wasteland and t1 moon effects (monored stompy, some big red builds) compared to running just Swamps.

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Ultimately, that is the cost of playing Goblin Charbelcher. Virtually all of your initial mana sources can be countered or discarded. Which is why I've dropped Belcher entirely. As much as it would seem fun to drop GCB on that guy holding back a Flusterstorm, it's one of those cards where you have to weigh up the games it cost you against the games where it actually helped you win.

In that sense, it's a lot like Eternal Witness. Which, amusingly, is what I swapped out GCB for. It's as if the deck tolerates only a certain number of niche cards...

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I just think the costs of Land Grant up front are too prohibitive compared to the risks of the D4 chains on the back end, and it's not like Belcher doesn't fizzle either (I've flipped many a land before 20) Kobolds always imprint on Mox, Swamps never get destroyed and Goblins generally get there game 1, so it seems like the safer bet.

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While I've dropped Land Grant, I've not gone to basic Swamps. Being able to fetch Dryad Arbor for Culling just feels like such a good play. I'm playing PSI, though, so I don't have access to 0 cc creatures.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

Ultimately, that is the cost of playing Goblin Charbelcher. Virtually all of your initial mana sources can be countered or discarded. Which is why I've dropped Belcher entirely. As much as it would seem fun to drop GCB on that guy holding back a Flusterstorm, it's one of those cards where you have to weigh up the games it cost you against the games where it actually helped you win.

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Based on some quick goldfishing, if keeping the GCB in, I feel that a monoblack or a super light red splash list (0 SSG, 0 ESG, 0-2 EtW and 0-1 BW/PiF MD) is the way to go. The deck will be vulnerable to initial mana source disruption, but surviving that, it will "go off" more reliably mid-chain via redundancy (btw, Gitaxian Probe is a nicer filler than Manamorphose without ESG or SSG if struggling to reach 60) without naturally drawing into all the fancy G and U mana cards and cool one-ofs in the MD when you don't have the color filtering available for them. If you want to support fancy 1-ofs and multiple color splashes, my recommendation would be to make the land base steadier than 1 wasteable land, 0-1 creature removable land with summoning sickness without B access + 4 counterable Land Grants. Which results in dropping the GCB from MD.

I'll still be using the 2 MD GCB, I have a small event tonight and tomorrow night, and a big one on Saturday. Depending on the 2 smaller events, if I do 'decently' (at least 2-2), I will take it on Saturday as well.

The maindeck GCB gave me 3 wins from the 5 games wins last Friday. Will try the 4 swarms over the 4 blooms this time.