[DTB] Blade Control

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Originally Posted by Sygg_River_Landlord

Could we see a list?

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SFM less, bladeless decks all suffer from the same problem, no clock. That's why I'm not inclined to play the terminus countertop version. With cavern, counter based control is even worse. That's the main reason I haven't been pursuing bladeless versions. I'll be getting my entreats soon and I look forward to testing it. I feel that it's splashiness warrants having it as a 1 off main, most likely replacing Elspeth and probably another in the board, as another bomb when you board out the sfm package.

Question, if you are testing terminus, which would you replace in the board, engineered explosives, path or wrath? I'm inclined to pick replacing ee, because though versatile, it's main use is as a cheap. Sweeper, which is exactly what terminus is, a conditionally better cheap sweeper. So a 2/2 Wrath/terminus split is ok? I don't fancy drawing too many terminus early and get them stuck without brainstorm. Ditto wrath because it's 4cc, so a split is best?

well, I don't know. I would cut wrath completely and keep at least one explosives especially if you play with academy ruins. Sometimes you can kill choke with it and it is also very useful against enchantress or jitte or other random non-creature stuff. If you only go for terminus in the sideboard I would cut 2 wrath and 1-2 path.

I'm not too fond of PtE at the moment. Right now, the MUs where we need more removal, we don't need more targeted removal. I would keep the EE, and replace the PtEs with Cursed Totem and, if you're so inclined, the WoG with Terminus.

In regards to WoG VS Terminus...

How often do I topdeck a WoG while behind and not want/need to use it that turn?

How often would tapping one W as opposed to 2WW be relevant when playing against Choke, Wasteland, Thalia, Daze, and Spell Pierce?

How often am I going to have an opener with a Terminus and no access to Brainstorm within the first 4 turns?

How relevant is the 2 extra mana to flash back Terminus with Snapcaster?

How relevant is "bottom of the library" as opposed to "destroyed?"

And in regards to whether or not UWx hard control can be a deck... I doubt it. Terminus is good, but not format warping good. And even if it is, it doesn't have much to do with the Stoneblade thread. It's not so much a matter of Control Deck X being bad per say; it's always a matter of it being worse than its hybrid control counterpart.

yeah, sure my decklist belongs somewhere else, sorry for that, I post it in the correct thread later on.

On the other hand terminus is only a sideboard card for stoneblade IF you board out the stoneforge packages which I did a lot while I was on U/W before switching to esperblade. I am really trying to get back to U/W but not sure if stoneblade or u/w control with entreat/jace as finisher.
Somehow the stoneforge package feels so bad against maverick and too slow against rug same for ur-delverburn.

The two best Tier 1 decks are just not easy matchups what you guys think?

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Originally Posted by Thorondor

On the other hand terminus is only a sideboard card for stoneblade IF you board out the stoneforge packages which I did a lot while I was on U/W before switching to esperblade.

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I'm not sure why you'd have to side out the SFM package any more with Terminus than you would with WoG. In fact, using the extra mana to drop a SFM post-Terminus sounds pretty good. Terminus with Entreat the Angels sounds infinitely worse since you are down a card, all your angels, and Entreat doesn't even go back in. At least if you Terminus your own SFM, you still have the equipment and the SFM goes back to your deck.

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Originally Posted by Thorondor

I am really trying to get back to U/W but not sure if stoneblade or u/w control with entreat/jace as finisher.
Somehow the stoneforge package feels so bad against maverick and too slow against rug same for ur-delverburn.

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The SFM package generally isn't the best against Maverick due to their access to a lot of virtual artifact removal. I really like Cursed Totem for Maverick and it might be good enough to make SFM good here.

As for RUG and UR, I think SFM into Batterskull is essential. I don't know why you'd ever board it out in either MU. Batterskull is basically a win against UR and very nearly so against RUG. At the very least, it's a solid answer to Mongoose.

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Originally Posted by Thorondor

The two best Tier 1 decks are just not easy matchups what you guys think?

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RUG is fine. Maverick needs a lot of work. Terminus may be what we need. People are also starting to adopt Cursed Totem. We'll see.

sure, some things will change.

For me stoneforge into batterskull always felt too slow. Mystic mostly does not survive one turn or the token gets stifled and you have to play around daze, so you can normaly play mystic around turn 3-4 (one land get stifled or wasted) and than you still need one more turn to get Batterskull online. Most of the time I fetch jitte against RUG only batterskull if I have enough lands to hardcast it soon and/or force/pierce to save mystic from dying.

I don't like lingering souls... terminus and cb is one way of playing blue control/semi-control. I however invented the wheel again. Ancestral vision.

CREATURES (10)
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
SORCERIES (8)
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
INSTANTS (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (4)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
ARTIFACTS (2)
2 Batterskull
LANDS (24)
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
SIDEBOARD
1 Gideon Jura
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Perish
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Diabolic Edict


Basicly you interact with your opponent from every angle (discard, counters, pressure, removal) almost like team america. But instead of running fragile wincons you have sfm and planeswalkers and instead of taxing counters you run real cards. Ironicly the card i don't want run is hard to deal with (Lingering souls).

What do you guys think?

I think it'll be better running 1 jitte main over the other Batterskull. Most metas nowadays are shifting to esperblade over traditional UW blade lists.

just my two cents

I'm running a fairly stock UW list. What should I look for in the RUG Delver matchup? Obviously, fetch (safely) as many basics as possible in order to not get blown out Wasteland x 2 early, but beyond that, what specifics should I watch for?

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

I'm running a fairly stock UW list. What should I look for in the RUG Delver matchup? Obviously, fetch (safely) as many basics as possible in order to not get blown out Wasteland x 2 early, but beyond that, what specifics should I watch for?

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Batterskull. Especially G1, they really can't deal with it.

My creature suite is currently 4 SFM, 4 Snapcaster, 2 Clique (I like his versatility and having a total of 6 Flash equipment carriers is nice), but I find that keeping my guys around versus RUG is difficult (countermagic + burn + their guys trade/are bigger than my guys). I could run Geist, but I don't really think he does anything well other than beat face (whereas Clique beats for less, but is far more versatile). Thoughts? Maybe run more Spell Pierce?

@Arsenal:

Based on experience, my usual strategy is to drag the game a little further when I'm up against RUG. Common knowledge is to fetch basics early on. Also, an opening hand with a least 1 STP is recommended as RUG would usually try to land that Turn 1 delver if they are on the play. Most of the time. If your game reaches mid to end, you get the upper hand against them assuming you made that they were unable to flood the board with a number of threats. Take note of their cards on hand. At some point, you would usually run into an attrition fight to the point that they would commit everything and end up in topdeck mode. 90% of the time, I usually end up recovering faster. It's ok if they burn out most of your critters as long as they dont have any as well. Stifles on batterskull are backbreaking.

*BTW, Im using 2 Mirran Crusaders and 2 cliques for my build. They have been awesome against mongoose. Yeah they get burned but better that directing the burn spells to you.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

As for RUG and UR, I think SFM into Batterskull is essential. I don't know why you'd ever board it out in either MU. Batterskull is basically a win against UR and very nearly so against RUG. At the very least, it's a solid answer to Mongoose.

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You really want to board out the SFM package against RUG. Initially I though SFM was great against them but they almost always play ancient grudge. I played against 2 RUG players at a fairly high level tournament lately and both times I was blown out by grudge in. You invest so much and then get your equip blown up by a grudge. It's worse because you can't deal with the flashback most of the time and if they blow both batterskull and jitte, the SFMs you draw in the future are dead draws.

I'm still on the fence on Terminus (due to timing issues with brainstorm). But I think Entreat is the real deal as a "finisher". I feel that traditional UW needs a little "umph" to push it over the top in the late game. Sometimes I feel like the deck needs a little more raw power (ie black splash for lingering), and Entreat does that very well. It's a GG card that is quite efficient for it's manacost and wins games straight up no matter how down you are in board position.

What do people think about Firespout in the SB with the red splash? Personally, I wouldn't be running green at all, and it'd just be for the red half. It seems good against Maverick, killing everything except KotR (which can just be path'd or w/e), gets around Teeg in that match-up, which I find to be incredibly relevant, and is cheaper (so it has more play ability against RUG Delver. I mean, it has it's downsides too, such as (without the green splash) not killing flipped Delvers and not killing anything fucking huge like a Progenitus, but I think the cheapness of it gives it good value against Mongeese and things like Thalia.

I mention this because I got reamed by Maverick yesterday and they had a Teeg on board, which made both my EE and Terminus completely dead. Does anyone have any experience with Firespout?

On Entreat the Angels, I was playtesting it yesterday and I found it very difficult to cast, even after setting it up. The fact that you can't crack a fetchland when you reveal it in order to cast it was extremely relevant in my small amount of testing. I almost always Brainstorm with a fetch out and then drawing it was just the worst, especially when I wanted it, because I couldn't get the land from the fetch without either keeping it in my hand or getting rid of it. Plus, the match-ups where it's very good (e.g. Maverick) make it difficult to have WW on the spot, without having two basic plains, which I can't find room for if I want a Karakas in my list. UW Stoneblade (even with the red splash) really prides itself on an incredibly stable mana base.

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The fact that you can't crack a fetchland when you reveal it in order to cast it

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Wrong. Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability. You sure can respond to the triggered ability.

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Originally Posted by heroicraptor

Wrong. Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability. You sure can respond to the triggered ability.

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This is great to know. Thanks man.

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Originally Posted by heroicraptor

Wrong. Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability. You sure can respond to the triggered ability.

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Yeap, you draw it, reveal it and the trigger goes on. Then you can crack your fetch to get the 2nd white. I've found it really slow as well. I only tested it because I was unhappy with Elspeth. I've since gone back to 4 Jaces. Jace=always good. Pitches to force, bounces Delvers and all around super bomb. Don't know why we aren't playing 4 already.

Then again I still believe entreat is better than Elspeth. I don't find Elspeth good in this deck at all. It simply does not change games. I have cut entreat from the main because it's situational and only good in the late game but I've kept 1 copy in the board for the sfm-less plan.

As for the red splash for spout, I think the black splash for perish is better. You get to kill the green bigs too. That said, Mav is always a hard mu.

I wrote up a tournament report about running Esper Blade at a 63-man legacy event.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ohnson-City-NY

I was almost certain once you reveal the miracle, you have to pay, and you can't crack fetchlands to pay for the miracle. I was certain they were linked as one entity.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I was almost certain once you reveal the miracle, you have to pay, and you can't crack fetchlands to pay for the miracle. I was certain they were linked as one entity.

-Matt

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When the trigger goes on the stack, of course you can respond to it by fetching. The thing is just that if you put the trigger on the stack and then pass priority by asking your opponent "ok?" or something stupid, if he then says "yes", the trigger resolves. When the trigger is resolving, you have to pay the mana, so then you can't go fetching.

You can respond to the trigger by cracking a fetch. Once the trigger resolves, you can't crack a fetch. Just be sure to be clear to your opponent what is happening, and don't get caught in a situation where you pass priority without fetching, or a pedantic opponent will call you on it (once you pass priority and they pass priority, you can't fetch anymore).

As for Firespout, howabout Bonfire of the Damned instead? More mana intensive, but it's one-sided, hits all creatures (sans protection) and is actually castable without miracle, and splashable with its solitary R requirement.

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Originally Posted by matunos

As for Firespout, howabout Bonfire of the Damned instead? More mana intensive, but it's one-sided, hits all creatures (sans protection) and is actually castable without miracle, and splashable with its solitary R requirement.

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We actually don't care about our opponents' life totals until the point we're in complete control - so the damage to the face doesn't matter. Furthermore, it's off color and doesn't get those bothersome fatties. I don't see how BofD will find a home in any Legacy archetype.

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Originally Posted by klaus

We actually don't care about our opponents' life totals until the point we're in complete control - so the damage to the face doesn't matter. Furthermore, it's off color and doesn't get those bothersome fatties. I don't see how BofD will find a home in any Legacy archetype.

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"Bonfire of the Damned deals X damage to target player and each creature he or she controls."

Any deck that would be considering Firespout (which was the question to which I was responding) is on color for BotD.

Granted, BotD is un-flashbackable, practically speaking.

I think this deck needs a change up to survive in the current meta. No Stoneblade at all the the t16. Another card I've found to be great in the board is timely reinforcements. I feel that this deck has a hard game against burn or hyper fast ur delver decks. Timely is a very good flashbackable bomb.

Since I already main 2 paths, I'll the following creature busting suit:

2 Terminus
2 Timely
2 Wrath

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

I think this deck needs a change up to survive in the current meta. No Stoneblade at all the the t16. Another card I've found to be great in the board is timely reinforcements. I feel that this deck has a hard game against burn or hyper fast ur delver decks. Timely is a very good flashbackable bomb.

Since I already main 2 paths, I'll the following creature busting suit:

2 Terminus
2 Timely
2 Wrath

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I run a red splash and md use 4 stp, 2 EE (with academy), and 2 forked bolt. Out of the board I have 1 terminus, 1 wog, 1 path to exile. I haven't had to play against burn but against delver and maverick this seems to be sufficient. Timely is an interesting thought though, the problem is that much like lingering souls, timely doesn't actually do anything but stall a turn or two. Sometimes that is good enough, a lot of the time that doesn't actually help all that much. Perhaps the life gain would make the difference though.

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Originally Posted by chags

I run a red splash and md use 4 stp, 2 EE (with academy), and 2 forked bolt. Out of the board I have 1 terminus, 1 wog, 1 path to exile. I haven't had to play against burn but against delver and maverick this seems to be sufficient. Timely is an interesting thought though, the problem is that much like lingering souls, timely doesn't actually do anything but stall a turn or two. Sometimes that is good enough, a lot of the time that doesn't actually help all that much. Perhaps the life gain would make the difference though.

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I've tested TR and found it okay. With the surge of super-fast Aggro it's a viable SB option.
And yes the 6 life do make a significant difference.

@ matunos:
obviously I'm aware of the damage BotD deals to creatures.. I don't see any advantage over Terminus whatsoever and it is off-(UW)-color, meaning chances are your R sources don't exist when you draw it (Wasteland), which sucks cause you'll have a hard time setting it up again.

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Originally Posted by chags

I run a red splash and md use 4 stp, 2 EE (with academy), and 2 forked bolt. Out of the board I have 1 terminus, 1 wog, 1 path to exile. I haven't had to play against burn but against delver and maverick this seems to be sufficient. Timely is an interesting thought though, the problem is that much like lingering souls, timely doesn't actually do anything but stall a turn or two. Sometimes that is good enough, a lot of the time that doesn't actually help all that much. Perhaps the life gain would make the difference though.

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How does your manabase look? Actually, could I see your list? I run the red splash too and I want to see how other lists look. I don't run any splash MD right now, but I like the idea of Forked Bolts. Do you find them strong enough?

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Originally Posted by learntolove6

How does your manabase look? Actually, could I see your list? I run the red splash too and I want to see how other lists look. I don't run any splash MD right now, but I like the idea of Forked Bolts. Do you find them strong enough?

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MD I run:
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique

2 JTMS
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Forked Bolt
2 Ponder
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Spell Pierce
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded STrand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Plains
4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
2 Disenchant
1 Terminus
1 Wrath of God
1 Path to Exile
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Blue Elemental Blast

I'm thinking about cutting the riptide lab for a palteau and cutting a disenchant for a second blue elemental blast in the board. Beyond that the list has been treating me well. Forked bolt has been very helpful against maverick, rug, and lingering souls.

No Spell Snare? I think you need at least 2-3. I'd rather have that over Counterspell/Ponder. And no Wastelands? I think Riptide/Karakas/Academy could be Wastelands, especially since Cavern of Souls is a card now. I play all 4 in UW because Cavern is really good against us.

Also, winning games due to mana screwing opponents/ trading lands with opponents if I'm flooding is always good. Karakas/Riptide/Academy are more situational, but that's my opinion.

How has Elsepth been working for those of you that are running her? I've always played 4-Jace/0-Elspeth and have always been pretty happy. Having a body to carry equipment hasn't really been too much of an issue (4 Snap, 4 SFM, 2 Mishra's Factory, 2 Clique, 2 Geist creature suite).

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

No Spell Snare? I think you need at least 2-3. I'd rather have that over Counterspell/Ponder. And no Wastelands? I think Riptide/Karakas/Academy could be Wastelands, especially since Cavern of Souls is a card now. I play all 4 in UW because Cavern is really good against us.

Also, winning games due to mana screwing opponents/ trading lands with opponents if I'm flooding is always good. Karakas/Riptide/Academy are more situational, but that's my opinion.

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Pierce and counterspell do more then snare, snare seems to only answer cards we already can answer. I don't like wasteland for a multitude of reasons. One I'm running ee x2 main and forked bolts so cavern really doesn't do much, I've only seen it played in goblins which I don't have issues with. I also dislike it because mana screwing people is not what this deck wants to do, it wants top cast jace and elspeth reliably. Thirdly I'm running 23 land...running wastes requires a 24th and probably a crucible in the sb to be truly valuable.

Elspeth is awesome against the mirror and against rug/mav. I'd play at least one MD.

For UW, is the standard equipment suite 1 Batterskull + 1 Jitte? Or are people also playing 1 Sword of XYZ in addition to Jitte and Batterskull? I suppose I could cut a SoFaF and run an Elspeth (definitely not cutting my 4th Jace).

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

For UW, is the standard equipment suite 1 Batterskull + 1 Jitte? Or are people also playing 1 Sword of XYZ in addition to Jitte and Batterskull? I suppose I could cut a SoFaF and run an Elspeth (definitely not cutting my 4th Jace).

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I'd cut a jace, 5 planeswalkers is a lot. I'm testing an alternate sideboard with more to do against sneaky show and testing sulfur elemental to beat mom and lingering souls.
2 sulfur elemental 3 reb 1 disenchant 1 terminus 1 spell pierce 3 surgical 1 tormods crypt 1 blue blast 2 meddling mage

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Originally Posted by chags

I'd cut a jace, 5 planeswalkers is a lot. I'm testing an alternate sideboard with more to do against sneaky show and testing sulfur elemental to beat mom and lingering souls.
2 sulfur elemental 3 reb 1 disenchant 1 terminus 1 spell pierce 3 surgical 1 tormods crypt 1 blue blast 2 meddling mage

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Sulfur Elemental is insane. Very very good.

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Originally Posted by chags

I'd cut a jace, 5 planeswalkers is a lot. I'm testing an alternate sideboard with more to do against sneaky show and testing sulfur elemental to beat mom and lingering souls.
2 sulfur elemental 3 reb 1 disenchant 1 terminus 1 spell pierce 3 surgical 1 tormods crypt 1 blue blast 2 meddling mage

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My UW build as of today:

2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland

To me, the only flex spots would be cutting 1-2 creatures and cutting the SoFaF which could give me 2-3 more slots for something else (more removal/sweepers, more countermagic, etc).

I dislike 4 fow especially along side 3 Pierce. I think you could cut a fow, the sofaf, and yes a jace or two. Jace is just very mediocre against rug and.mav and lingering souls is decent at killing jace as well. In a wasteland heavy Meta you don't want too many 4 drops. I really dislike geist without elspeth, especially if you cut sofaf. If you don't want to splash a color I'd add two path to exile to this MD. That being said a splash and playing engineered explosives is very worth it. And as I said previously I'm.not a fan of wasteland but if you are running them I'd play a crucible in the 75 as well.

Contrary to popular belief, Elspeth is not great against delver. She needs double white and against a flying delver, she does nothing. Also simply blocking a goose/Goyf everyturn is underwhelming. Stoneblade is not very aggro, so her added damage is not too useful. She is only really good against other decks with Jace because she can kill jace.

Jace IMO is better as the 4th walker. He pitches to force against combo, extras can be brainstorm away, he bounces delvers/dudes and most importantly he draws cards. I've found that when I get an Elspeth to stick, she is not game. She chumps for a while then gets killed when they flood with dudes. Her + 3/+ 3 is also not very impressive because we are unlikely to win any damage race. Jace makes a much bigger splash.

Even if he gets killed, a few bounces/brainstorms can put you ahead indefinitely. Elspeth at best for me makes my batterskull a flying scary lifelinker, but often, she soaks a bunch of damage, then dies. Jace bounces and creates tempo. Then helps me draw into answers to control the game, and finally fateseals and ultis for the finishing touch.

My 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

Contrary to popular belief, Elspeth is not great against delver. She needs double white and against a flying delver, she does nothing. Also simply blocking a goose/Goyf everyturn is underwhelming. Stoneblade is not very aggro, so her added damage is not too useful. She is only really good against other decks with Jace because she can kill jace.

Jace IMO is better as the 4th walker. He pitches to force against combo, extras can be brainstorm away, he bounces delvers/dudes and most importantly he draws cards. I've found that when I get an Elspeth to stick, she is not game. She chumps for a while then gets killed when they flood with dudes. Her + 3/+ 3 is also not very impressive because we are unlikely to win any damage race. Jace makes a much bigger splash.

Even if he gets killed, a few bounces/brainstorms can put you ahead indefinitely. Elspeth at best for me makes my batterskull a flying scary lifelinker, but often, she soaks a bunch of damage, then dies. Jace bounces and creates tempo. Then helps me draw into answers to control the game, and finally fateseals and ultis for the finishing touch.

My 2 cents.

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Between bolt, flying delvers, unbounceable mongeese, and rebs post board I don't see how you are keeping jace on the table against rug. He is a 4 mana brainstorm or a 4 mana unsummon against that deck and then promptly dies most times. Elsepth is a planeswalker most rug players will try to get off the table quickly. Between her ability to give chump blockers and her high loyalty right from the start this will at least take a few turns unless their hand is nuts in which case you were losing with either planeswalker. Double white is not an issue when you build your mana base accordingly, I run 7 basics as well as 4 white producing duals and a karakas. I actually end up siding out my jaces often versus rug and maverick. Just my opinion of course but for me jace always seems very low impact and dies quickly unless I'm already ahead on board in which case either planeswalker will win the game.

Elspeth also offers a quick way for Stoneblade to close a game that's within reach. Jumping a Batterskull or even a Snapcaster Mage 2 turns in a row can often be all you need to win. Getting in one hit with a 7/7 Batterskull and having a 5 loyalty Elspeth on the table to boot is going to be backbreaking against any aggro deck. Not to mention the fact that she spits out dudes when all you have left is equipment. Jace doesn't help you much there.

It's true that she can be somewhat low-impact when they have flyers that are beating you down, but RUG only runs 4 Delvers and Elspeth happily blocks the other 66% of their threats while you dig for further answers. The reason she is so good is that she often requires multiple cards/turns from your opponent to get her off the table when you are behind, and when you're at parity or ahead she can simply take over the game.

To each their own, I started with 4 Jace, loved it. Tried 3/1 split, felt weak to me, as I always felt I prefered Jace over Elspeth whenever I drawed her. Too many situations where I felt, "man if this was a Jace, I would have closed this out ages ago instead of chumping to infinity". Maybe I played against too many delver decks, who knows. I've gone back to 4 and Jace hasn't let me down yet.