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Right - draw as many cards as possible (and play around Lightning Bolt...), seven cards at a time. If the first seven don't find a winning combination, draw another seven. Evaluate each time to see if there's a path to either draw more cards, or win outright.
Sometimes, it's Entomb (Kids) + Reanimate to keep going deeper.
Always go for the most expeditious kill. But if he has freaking Karakas in play, of course things are going to get a little trickier. Your best bet in that case is just not even bother with Emrakul and just attempt to go infinite. Fortunately it's really easy to transition from drawing your deck to just attacking with Emrakul.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
I'm very convinced that Tendrils is a crutch in almost every preboard game and many postboard. I played a local tournament with a Tendrils in the board, so I'll give a quick report then share some post-event thoughts.
First, my list. It's nothing especially revolutionary, just some tweaks:
4 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
1 Reanimate
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Silence
1 Children of Korlis
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
// 14 lands
4 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
// Sideboard
1 Reverent Silence
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Massacre
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Pull from Eternity
1 Silence
2 Serenity
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Teferi's Realm
My thought was that Lim-Dul's Vault really pushes you to play an Island and a Swamp (which ended up being reasonably valid), and the sideboard was really just to get a feel for a bunch of different but similar effects. I cut a Probe for a Silence because I really wanted to fit a second Silence in the main but also wanted 14 lands for Mox Diamond.
Round 1 - Dredge
I got him game 1 by just being faster after his mull to 5. Boarded in 2 Chain (for Iona) and 2 Surgical for 3 Gitaxian Probe and 1 Cabal Therapy.
Game 2 he mulliganned to 6, dropped Leyline, and passed. I kept a no-lander with the combo and Surgical on 6. He found a land and dredgers before I found a land and bounce spell. Game 3 I had the choice of playing basic Island and holding up Brainstorm or cracking my fetch for Sea to Thoughtseize his 7 card hand. I ended up Thoughtseizing and taking his Faithless Looting out of a hand with no dredgers, but my Brainstorm bricked on action or shuffles and he killed me.
0-1
Round 2 - Niv-Magus Combo
Game 1 he got me down to 13 with Niv-Magus Elemental, but then instead of leaving up Flusterstorm he decided to Ponder. He seemed inexperienced to not leave up protection after seeing me play Probe and LDV and was also playing a shockland, so I just went for it. Went infinite, drew deck, he made me go through it until I cast Emrakul. Took a good 5 minutes, but it was kinda fun in the miserable High Tide sort of sense. Boarded in Silence, 1 Chain of Vapor, and Xantid Swarm for 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Gitaxian Probe, and 1 LDV. Game 2 I played it slow and steady. Waited for protection instead of running out the combo, was rewarded by Thoughtseizing Flusterstorm then my topdecked Silence beat his topdecked Surgical.
1-1
Round 3 - Hoogland Loam
This deck is just terrifying to a storm-style combo deck. Won the die roll, then Therapied both his Chalice of the Voids in the blind. He didn't recover. Boarded -2 Silence, -3 Gitaxian Probe, -1 LDV, +1 Abrupt Decay, +2 Serenity, +1 Tendrils of Agony, +Teferi's Realm, +1 Pull from Eternity.
Game 2 He dropped a Chalice on 1. I was fine with that since I had the Serenity and 2 lands in hand, but ended up waiting too long to play it (since I didn't have the combo or cantrips in hand), and got 2-shotted by a Knight. My bad. Game 3 I Thoughtseized his Thalia on a mull to 5, but took a while to find the pieces. He dropped a Sylvan Library, I durdled, he drew all 3 then Devastating Dreamseded for 2. I had Mox Diamond in play and could cast LDV for Entomb in response with the DR and Shallow Grave in hand, so that worked out ok.
2-1
Round 4 - Godo Dragon Stompy
Played by nedleeds, of course. Game 1 he mulliganed to a turn 2 Trinisphere on the play, but I topdecked the Entomb. My hand was pretty soft to Trinisphere, but not Blood Moon or Chalice: a land, Petal, Dark Rit, Gitaxian Probe, Griselbrand, Shallow Grave, and something else - a pretty easy draw-discard hand. Boarded similar to last round except brought in Chains over Pull and Tendrils. Game 2 he dropped a quick Magus of the Moon into Batterskull while I tried to find the kill. EOT LDV cast off of basics found the combo, but I couldn't find another IMS to continue after attacking with Griselbrand. Died to the swingback. Game 3 he mulliganned into a fine hand with Crypt and turn 1 Blood Moon. My Thoughtseize took the Crypt then I killed him a couple of turns later without him having found a good lockpiece.
3-1
Quarters - Megadeus with Hoogland Loam
He mulliganned to 5 and my Thoughtseize took his Chalice of the Void. Then I killed him in a turn or two later. Boarding same as before. Game 2 he had no turn 1 play and my Thoughtseize took his Thalia. He droppeda Kngiht and EOT I LDVd for the Entomb to pair with my Reanimate, cast Chain of Vapor on his KotR, made a Griselbrand, and passed at 3 life. He replayed Knight, I swung in but decided to not go for it and instead played Needle on Karakas. He cast Burning Wish and tanked for literally 5 minutes, then figured out that with me at 10, Chainer's Edict was really good. Knight got there. I punted by forgetting how many outs he has to a resolved Griselbrand and should have just gone for it at 10 life. Game 3 he dropped Chalice into Thalia. I played a couple basics then spent a couple of turns drawing to 8 and discarding Griselbrand. Tapped out to reanimate a Griselbrand, draw 14, passed with Massacre, Serenity, Shallow Grave, another land, DR, Pull, and Entomb in hand. He swung in, then I killed his dudes and dropped Serenity. Unfortunately, he had a Wish and Pulsed Serenity, which pretty much locked me out.
So overall thoughts:
Lim-Dul's Vault was definitely great. I doubted you guys before, but it's lived up to expectations. I liked having both basics and never got screwed on color. Part of that was Mox Diamond - it was good in the one game where I was a little flooded as a wasteland-proof dual. It was bad once while resolving LDV where a Chrome Mox would have been good, but wasn't game-ending. .dk always said it was good for him, so I'd been meaning to try it out.
I feel like I only really wanted Tendrils in against decks with Karakas and/or Swords. It was a fine board card, but I'm very happy to not be maindecking it. Combo turns took deliciously long (with me playing quickly) and were completely miserable for my opponents. Silence is a very good extra effect to have. I felt like the deck has never felt more consistent.
My sideboard was pretty random but I got a good feel for what effects I wanted. I think I want to cut a Teferi's Realm and a Reverent Silence for an Abrupt Decay and a Silence.
On the whole, it's feeling like the meta is shifting in a more favorable direction if people are playing more Omniscience and less Jund. The transition from Esper to Deathblade can't be too bad either. People seem to be trimming the grave hate again, so it's time for graveyard decks to pounce.
Yeah the basics I think were very good at least against me. Especially in a waste heavy meta like ours. I just luck sacked into a win there. LDV is basically a vampiric and watching you play it, it seemed like it did an extreme amount of work. Also I agree with the addition of an abrupt decay to the board, especially since not just in our meta, but everyone is seeming to figure out how good chalice of the void is again.
Haven't played with the deck for a while. What came to mind lately (not sure if someone brought it up) to abuse LDV a bit more. What I mean is by stacking the deck you can use thought scour instead of careful study as an additional discard outlet. Works with brainstorm and ponder as well of course, but has the advantage of providing "card advantage" by getting the graveyard bin for free as opposed to careful study where you lose 2 cards to get the effect.
LDV and topdecking and Brainstorm are enough. Using LDV and paying more than 10 life is counter to the deck's plan of reanimating Griselbrand and drawing a bunch of cards. Playing Thought Scour is also just plain worse than any other cantrip.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
Fuck. Do you guys just get home and start typing after the Wednesday night?
I was playing Blood Moon and honestly on the draw it's pretty useless against this deck -- if I had anything remotely better I would have sided out at least some Moon effects on the draw. But I had Pyrokinesis, and some other anti dude measures to ensure that I wasn't toast vs. The Hunter (a local goblin aficionado / legend / god / sack).
I boarded in the 4th Revoker and 3 Crypts and a Jitte in case I got stuck with a Grey Ogre as my only beater.
Well, yeah. Unlike you old farts, young guys like me don't have a bedtime :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Mox Diamond is pretty good sometimes - I had never tried it without running any Chrome Moxen at the same time. Curious if it's actually better than the 1st Chrome Mox, or just better than the 2nd or 3rd Chrome Mox. I think it becomes even more valuable if you're running Abrupt Decay though, since fixing across 3 colors in this deck can be pretty abysmal without running City of Ass or Gemstone Mine (which in turn make the rest of the deck abysmal). That said, I still don't really like Abrupt Decay in the deck. I feel like in the situations where I would want it, Serenity (Chalice, Sphere of Resistance), Reverent Silence (Counterbalance, Rest in Peace), or bounce (Thalia, Rest in Peace) are just as good at dealing with those situations along with other added benefits. My take though - if it's working, I certainly can't dispute it. I would ask if when you're drawing it, think about Serenity, Reverent Silence, or Cain of Vapor and if any of those would have been just as good in those same scenarios (or if you would have even boarded those in, for that matter).Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
I can't come up with a solid argument as to why I want Tendrils main - I can see your point. I think it does need to be in the 75 somewhere as it does get you out of a few sticky situations. There are certainly rogue builds out there (I'm looking at you Moat Stompy) where Tendrils is probably worthwhile, but nothing in the metagame at large really sticks out to me. Someone please let me know if I'm missing something, though, as I haven't been keeping up with Legacy as much lately as I would like.
I also agree that it seems like a good time for graveyard decks to make a resurgence. I haven't tested against Deathblade at all - how is that matchup?
I did do that when I was boarding. Serenity is good, but I really wanted an Abrupt Decay to answer both Thalia and Chalice of the Void. When a deck has hate bears as well as hate artifacts or enchantments, Abrupt Decay shines.Quote:
Originally Posted by .dk
The big maindeck cards that I can think of that shut down Griselbrand are Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm, Ensnaring Bridge, Peacekeeper, Karakas, and sometimes Swords to Plowshares, where Griselbrand is more likely to be a huge storm engine than an actual win condition. Fortunately, those decks are pretty rogue. Tezzeret, Affinity, Lands, and to some extent Maverick and Hoogland Loam. I think Stax doesn't count because we're likely to either kill them or have to play Serenity before going off. Generally Tendrils is worthwhile postboard against the W decks when they get to bring in grave hate as well as Karakas or Swords.Quote:
Originally Posted by .dk
How much do you like the Reanimate?
In testing I'd rather not have it most of the time. Yes it can help getting t1 Griselbrand since you only need 2 mana instead of 3 but it's weak to Karakas, swords.
The moment where Reanimate really shines is when going off to get our childen back but then again, when we're going off we often allready have 3 mana pre-combat, thus can get Emrakul or do have a really good shot for having 3 mana anway post combat and can return childen with Shallow Grave.
That was my reason for cutting it in favor of the 4th Goryo's in it's place last saturday, unfortunately I didn't mark the one to see which card I rather have while playing the tournament.
You could also try playing Exhume.
Reanimate shines well against Tarmogoyf decks when you can force them to discard it. Otherwise, Exhume is a good substitute. Be mindful that it does cost more, so it becomes a bit more difficult to use. It's also symmetrical. The important point vs the 4th Goryo's Vengeance is that it should be able to reanimate Children of Korlis, which both Reanimate and Exhume can do.
Against most Tarmogoyf decks I'd rather discard their ways to disrupt me, whether it beeing counterspells, discard or shamans.
Obviously there are situation where it's right to let them discard Goyf, as example if they have no other pressure but a hand full of permission.
Haven't thought about Exhume in this deck yet, beeing symmetrical should be largely irrelevant, but like you said, it does cost 2 - so why not playing the 4th Vengeance which should be supreme to it ?
I'm soon gonna test a list with 1 Children (playing 2 right now), maybe then I'm more often in the need to really reanimate it rather then casting/Shallow Graving it and thus coming back to it.
The difference is that Exhume can get back Children, whereas Goryo's Vengeance cannot. That purpose is the primary reason there is an additional reanimation effect in the deck at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly
I recommend my BoM list (61 cards). You can easily cut a Gitaxian Probe or an USea/fetchland to make it 60 cards. I don't think the difference between 60/13/4, 60/14/4, or 61/14/4 is noticeable in this list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly
Keep in mind that when I originally rebuilt the deck (that makes it sound so fancy...) based on traditional reanimator lists, I started with 9 reanimation spells. Only when I proposed Probe did I cut down to the "stock" 8. Traditional reanimator now plays 10 reanimation spells. The marginal percentages for playing reanimate vs. Goryo's Vengeance vs. Exhume are pretty small, but I've found the 1-mana reanimate effect useful pre and post combo. That being said, any choice can't be that far wrong, and it's not right out to play more reanimation effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly
Also disclaimer, walker and others proposed Probe in the list before me. I'm not trying to take credit from their work in developing the deck.
I think that Exhume should only be a consideration if you're playing a ton of Pull from Eternities. Otherwise Reanimate or Goryo's Vengeance are just better.
Edit: seconded on what Koby said. People make a big deal about minor changes, but at the end of the day, it's not really that much different.
I won a few games off of a t1 Reanimate on Griselbrand, it's great against decks like Burn or RUG or Goblins (essentially red decks) that can't deal with a large creature on t1.
It's risky, but sometimes it is the correct line of play.
If you are mainly going to use Exhume to get back Children, I'd suggest you use Animate Dead since it's not symmetrical and has the same CMC. Personally I think that the only downside of Animate Dead is that it can be Stifled, but does make sure your opponent can't get back a hatebear of its own. Also Animate Dead can get a creature from your opponents graveyard (just like Reanimate).
Yea that's a good alternative too. It's a little weaker than Exhume because it turns on Abrupt Decay in those match ups where that matters, but it's about as 90% as effective.
As phazonmuant said, Exhume gets better with Pull from Eternity as well, since it doesn't target.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
get off my lawn!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
Went 4-2 today.
Lost against burn (I know..) won g1 easily. G2 I make a stupid mistake fetching the wrong land (Marsh Flats -> Island) casting Ponder which would've allowed me to win.. but it's the wrong land, cards get shuffeled in again I miss on the ponder (now cast from an Usea). He gets his second turn for pillar with Extraction + MBT backup.
G3 see g2 without the mistake.
Also lost against Jund (..) by keeping lose hands and getting blown up by Wasteland both times. G2 I still get to Emrakul but he has 7 permanents, keeping Ooze from whom I get beaten down 1 turn before I can find Entomb.
Wins were against: Junk, Painter, Gwu Enchantress, Tezzerator.
I tried the 1 Mox Diamond from phazonmuant, drew him 1 time with 0 lands after drawing 14 cards from Grizzelbrand (still won) and 2 times in my opening 7 (6) together with a single land were I'd rather would've had my second Chrome Mox. Won't try again.
Again never needed Reanimate nor wished my Goryo's Vengeance was one but again I did play 2 Children.
I did move the Tendrils to the sideboard to make room for Gitaxian Probe's and I can see it staying there (boarded it in vs Enchantress & Tezzerator because of humility/bridge).
Oh by the way, again my sideboard was pretty much irrelevant, used Serenity 2 times (one time it got destroyed), Submerge one time and Abrupt Decay one time for not much use. It's amazing how well this deck can play around hate just by its mainboard alone.
I have played approx. 30 games online, with minimal variation of the basic shell.
My findings (some are surprising) are:
) the right number of GB is 2 or 3
) Tendris (1 copy) win is more consistent than Emrakul: I always have the mana to win with Tendrils but not all the time for a win with the 15/15 monster.
Currently I avoid having Emrakul main deck. It is just a redundant win-more condition.
) for combos, discard package (+ 1 silence) is better than countermagic as it allows to see the other player hand and cost always 1 CMC.
) 1 Silence is mandatory and better than 2 silence main deck.
) 4 Gitaxian probes are mandatory: 2 life loss is negligible vs the capability to see the other player hand and shorten the deck.
) the worst match-up are against: heavy discard, heavy countermagic, wasteland+stifle package, graveyard hate
) card with CMC greater than 3 are unplayable, mana curve is small at 14 lands + 6 artifact accel.
) 5 artifact accel (4 petals + 1 crome) are mandatory 2 cromes debatable
) 7 reanimate spells are needed with 4 shallow and 2 goryo mandatory.
I like reanimate over the third goryo
) Careful Study creates too much card disadvantage and intuition is too slow.
Sideboard:
) Echoing T is better than Chain of Vapor: good against Chalice of Void
) Boomerang is better than Chain of Vapor:
) a trans-formative SB is the only option:
Boseiju, as a sideboard option is pretty strong against no-wasteland controls
Often, I transform the classic deck UBw by moving in:
2 Tidespout Tyrant
2 Echoing T
4 Show and Tell
1 Boseiju
- 2 Entomb
- 1 Cabal Therapy
- 3 Reanimate spells
- 3 mana accel
I am surprised people avoided testing more about TT:
it allows to bounce back Omniscience, DRS, Pithing Needle, Crypt, Thalia, Karakas, Jace, Leiliana and Lands and more: when SnT resolve you can bounce back other people permanent by casting a spell.
Seldom people have a creature removal as they board out vs graveyard hate in.
Looking forward hearing your feedback and if anybody have tried consistently a SnT + GB + TT deck.
Just one thought on this. Careful study isn't necessarily as much 'real' card disadvantage as meets the eye. Clearly 'draw 2 discard 2, plus cast the spell' = -1; but there are two points to note. First, if you are discarding G'brand, the card disadvantage is the same as entomb (-1 + G'brand in the yard). Secondly later on in the game, if you are discarding chaff that you don't need then the effective card disadvantage is mitigated, even effectively reversed. Take for example a situation in which you start with two lands in hand, it is now turn 3 and you have drawn two more lands in your draw steps. Those last two lands in this deck may be close to blanks, and careful study replacing these with fresh cards approximates +2 card advantage (obv. not quite, but you get my drift). That is why in the classic reaminator deck, where I have more personal experience, it is often important not to put lands into play beyond your first two or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush80
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cacks
It shall read, for a deck low on Fatties (3/4 like TinFins), having additional card disadvantage on top of 4 copies of Entomb and mana accel, may be detrimental especially if you cannot discard a Fatties: I think CS is great in Reanimator and poorer in TF classic build.
I tend to agree on careful study.
I do disagree about Emrakul being in the maindeck. Based on my games played, and many matches I've watched, it pulls it's weight more often than you think. Against decks that are running maindeck storm hate (in particular Gaddock Teeg and Leyline of Sanctity), Emrakul is quite necessary to win. It also has corner case uses of storming infinite if your opponent has gained a billion life, but that almost never comes up. I think the main use vs. things like Gaddock Teeg are probably enough to justify maindeck inclusion.
I agree with 2, 3 seems a bit much unless you are running a Careful Study version, then 4 seems like the right number to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush80
Emrakul has gotten me more wins than Tendrils has. I would say that 85% of my wins are off the back of Emrakul+Griselbrand swings, and outside of the 3 games in which I have used Reanimate on Griselbrand and the 2 that I used Rituals to power out Griselbrand, Tendrils gets me the win in maybe 1 game out of 10. That being said, I still believe that having both Emrakul and Tendrils in the main deck are the correct way to go. In fact, the games that I don't win with Emrakul are due to not finding a certain piece to get it out within 14 draws, usually a Lotus Petal or Dark Ritual, and require an attack phase with Griselbrand so I can draw 7 more cards to find that last piece.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush80
Agreed on Discard+Silence package. 2 Maindeck Silence isn't bad though, especially if you are like me and couldn't borrow a second Thoughtseize for an event.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush80
Agreed. Probe lets me keep greedy hands and gives me great information. I love keeping hands that have Land+Probe+Therapy and then a combo piece or two, since leading with Probe>Therapy gives me a good start on my opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush80
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush80
I'm still trying to get a hold on the Tempo Thresh match-up, the heavy countermagic is rough, especially on top of their clock and mana denial package.
Outside of Tendrils, fatties, and Massacre, I don't have anything larger than 2 cmc. With 14 lands, casting 3 cmc cards on demand is too sketchy for me since I love to keep greedy hands with this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush80
I do want to find out if adding a Chrome Mox or a Mox Diamond to bring the artifact mana to 6 slots is worth it, since I felt like Lotus Petals were often a choke point for me. I do find Chrome Mox to be awkward in the opening hand, but I love seeing it mid combo, and I would imagine Mox Diamond is better after a couple draw 7s.
I think 4/3/1 is the right number of reanimation spells. I think playing less than 8 is wrong, since failing to draw one of these is awful for our deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush80
Careful Study is great when you have 4 Griselbrand, and pitching excess land or other useless spells doesn't feel like disadvantage to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush80
Intuition is way too slow though, 3 cmc and is overall awkward.
I think a mix of the two is best, Chalice at 2 stops our reanimation spells, and leaning too heavily on Echoing Truth and Serenity makes that awkward. In fact, if you are running Serenity, Chain of Vapor should get the nod over Echoing Truth, since you have an answer to Chalice at 2 different CMC, and Chain is overall easier to cast due to costing less; see our discussion on Abeyance over Silence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush80
Boomerang is too blue heavy for this deck.
I personally hate trans-formative sideboards. I feel as though building a sideboard with answers to the hate that people bring in is better than attempting to dodge that hate by making a more garbage version of a different deck. What do you do if the deck you change your plan for ends up having hate that effects both decks? You've effectively done nothing useful by doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush80
That being said, Tidespout Tyrant is a neat idea, but only if you are using SnT, since Reanimating it in this deck gives you no advantage over reanimating Griselbrand or Emrakul, and due to the heavy blue requirement is nigh impossible to cast. Since I feel that SnT is wrong for this deck, Tidespout Tyrant is a waste of a slot.
Boseiju is neat though, I saw that work out for people, but since the version I play runs on 14 lands, having a land that doesn't give me colored mana is incredibly sketchy. I would much prefer to lean on Silence+Discard to fight counterspells.
In other news, I played at a local TCG Player event on Sunday, and ended up splitting top 4 due to the others wanting to go home (it was Father's day, after all).
Round 1: Bye
Round 2: Combo Elves 2-0
Round 3: Belcher 2-1 (he won the dice roll and I actually beat him in game 1. I found this incredibly hilarious)
Round 4: ID
Top 4 split.
Easiest tournament of my life.
I petition the users of this thread for a name change of Tin Fins to "Skill Game". :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Acclimation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I about died from laughter when I was watching my feature match and the commentators called Tinfins a difficult and challenging deck.
I'm not saying it's the easiest deck to play, but the plan is so linear that I could probably get white girl wasted and still beat people with the deck.
Not trying to brag, but that's pretty much half my streamed archives. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Acclimation
Yes, Game 1 is usually a joke, one way or another. Sideboard games get a bit harder, but this is definitely storm on training wheels (as Koby called it once).
Tin Fins 3: Return of the Skill Game
Petition denied. The highlight of my Magic career thus far was a Sealab 2021 episode synopsis being read on the SCG live feed. Since I'm a terrible player, adding to the prestigious list of terrible Magic deck names may be the most I ever achieve at the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
@Rush80, how is it that you support a transformational SB with SnT yet advocate not having spells at 3 CMC or greater?
And if there is going to be a name change, it shoule be TinFins 3: A Modest Proposal.
Cogito,
It looks 3 CMC is the maximum playable:
") card with CMC greater than 3 are unplayable"
so show and tell makes the cut but 4 CMC is too much: at 4 there are B and U (e.g. Cryptic Command) and W cards worth considering but CMC is of primary importance for this deck
I am planning to test a transformative SB with Goblin C. but I am highly skeptical, even if I add further mana accel.
One way is to add 1/2 Boseiju from the SB which make Shallow, Goryo, Snt uncounterable.
I still am not on the 3 CMC train, and I think we have found that SnT is just not effective enough with the limited amount of creatures and mana.
As for Boseju, it is very intersting. However, what I don't like about it is that it does nothing for entomb, which is the most important spell to resolve. For these reasons, I would rather just bring in additional silences to protect our GY plan.
Regardless, let us know how the testing works out for you. Perhaps one of these cards will end up like LDV, where it seemed superflous but actually ended up being pretty amazing.
If you want to do a transformational board to something as different as Charbelcher, why not go for ETW instead. You could do a board like:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush80
2 Chrome Mox
4 Rite of Flame
3 ETW
4 Manamorphose
2 Burning Wish
It's still terrible, but dodges all the Fatty/yard hate people will bring in, still hard to counter, and nobody's going to leave sweepers in against this deck.
the problem is the combo hate will be the same ^^
mindbreak trap , thalia , fluster , pierce , canonist etc
Yes... which is one of the many reasons that transformations likely won't work with this deck. We've tried a LOT of them over the past year. All are pretty much bad. Move along.Quote:
Originally Posted by P-E
Yeah and I just realized you'd have to have 4 ETW if you wanted B. Wish, which would only leave you with 3 Manamorphose, and that just CLEARLY sucks.
the only plan is man plan ^^
phyrexian obliterator , tarmo and alike haha (just think to discard/surgical stp)
Honestly, that's probably the best bet for a transformation, but I have 0 faith in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by P-E