[Primer] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun

So in a typical rhino list. I'm between adding truths vs library. In general I think SL is much better but in Nic Fit running SL with deed is awkward. Would it be reasonable to switch to Toxic Deluge in a SL list? That's a lot of life loss but Rhino has many ways to gain life. Maybe a split of truths/library and a split of deed and deluge?

Not sure

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I'll try to get you a list of lifegain creatures later. Some of my experiments with Bob have revolved entirely around cards that gain life. There's actually quite a few formidible ones out there. Scavenging Ooze, Kitchen Finks, Siege Rhino, it's definitely possible to string all of these cards together alongside Library.

Remember, it's OK to blow up your Library. Even if all you get out of it is one instance of topdeck manipulation and a 2 for 1, you got value out of it. More value than a SDT gives even. Alternatively, you could go to a build like mine that plays fewer Deeds.

Oh, don't get cocky about Miracles. They're still going to be a deck, and they still have Brainstorm+Jace to set up Terminus. You'll still need Lost Legacy against them to stop board wipes.

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Originally Posted by Brael

I'll try to get you a list of lifegain creatures later. Some of my experiments with Bob have revolved entirely around cards that gain life. There's actually quite a few formidible ones out there. Scavenging Ooze, Kitchen Finks, Siege Rhino, it's definitely possible to string all of these cards together alongside Library.

Remember, it's OK to blow up your Library. Even if all you get out of it is one instance of topdeck manipulation and a 2 for 1, you got value out of it. More value than a SDT gives even. Alternatively, you could go to a build like mine that plays fewer Deeds.

Oh, don't get cocky about Miracles. They're still going to be a deck, and they still have Brainstorm+Jace to set up Terminus. You'll still need Lost Legacy against them to stop board wipes.

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Junk SE fit definitely interests me more now. TBH I don't see Terminus being played. Engineered explosives and Verdict seem much better and what control decks will play as sweepers now imo. I like lost legacy still. Good against combo.

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Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

I'm thinking of playing legacy again with Nic Fit, have I missed anything since I was gone? :wink:

But yea, this seems like good news for us, opens up the format's room for more control decks, aka us

Makes combo stronger... but delver will still be around and we can stop focusing so much deck/sideboard space on miracles and even more on combo

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Lots. Sneak Fit is a thing now, it's pretty popular. Nyx Fit (an enchantment build) is really cool and also popular. I'm doing my own thing with various BG and BGw builds based on the SE stuff we played around with last year.

The deck is doing better than ever. I suspect a UW control deck will remain in the format, but combo is going to gain metashare. Overall, probably a slight negative for us with potential spikes to huge positives when combo is hated out.

Quick reaction:

1) to get this out of the way, Top was completely incorrect of a ban in my opinion. Terminus or Counterbalance were both much better options with less collateral damage. The Top ban was primarily championed by idiots with loudspeakers who should not be permitted to have any amount of weight lent to their opinions, because they don't understand the far-reaching consequences of the actions then endorse. This is roughly analogous to the Lodestone restriction in Vintage, IMO -- championed by the vocal minority, but which had poor consequences for the format (should've been Thorn of Amethyst).

2) regardless, this is the world we need to either choose to live in, or opt to not play anymore, so I will not be discussing my opinion on the ban further. If you wanted it, you got it. Time to move on.

3) Sneak gets hit arguably the hardest by this. Nyx is also /probably/ not very happy, but the additional consistency loaned by Evolutionary Leap makes it less awful for them. I think that this is an enormous hit to the archetype, mostly because the "best" Nic Fits have always been those which are centered around a combo. Unfortunately, being centered around a combo means an intrinsically higher amount of filtering is required. The "worse" Nic Fits -- meaning the midrange and control options -- are likely on par with or possibly even better than the combo versions now, which will PROBABLY end up being too unstable to function smoothly. I say probably, because I just got home from work and I haven't had time to fully process the big picture or begin developing lists.

4) One of Nic Fit's biggest strengths as an archetype is its raw adaptability. Once we know what we need to fight, we can adapt to it. Unfortunately, what it's looking like at first blush is that what we need to fight is going to be a rogue's gallery of Nic Fit's biggest predators. Elves is going to be everywhere. Lands is going to be everywhere. Various combo decks are getting a large uptick. Death and Taxes is likely the best non-blue deck in the format at this point both as a result of the impending meta and also as a result of their insane inherent consistency thanks to white recruiter and flickerwisp, along with palace jailer and SoFI giving them a draw engine.

4a) This likely means that we are going to need to go adventuring in order to find a new "best fit." It could be something reanimator-ish with Collective Brutality and Brainstorm. It could be a Collected Company variant. It could be something that we haven't even thought of as a possibility yet. Sneak escaped notice as a version for a long, long time - who knows what else is lurking?

4b) Expect this to result in more bans as time passes. Hitting Top is going to set off a chain reaction. I expect that within two years, Gaea's Cradle (or Natural Order) and Dark Depths will both be banned, and possibly Lion's Eye Diamond as well.

5) Sylvan Library is a shitty card with Miracles out of the format. Night's Whisper and Painful Truths are the biggest gainers for us out of this, with Oath of Nissa being worth considering for some versions, and Traverse the Ulvenwald also being an option for others. Diabolic Intent may also rise in favor. Basically, I see two ways forward: either we focus more on tutoring, or we focus more on drawing. Drawing weakens us to Leovold (which has otherwise been a card we could simply ignore), tutoring weakens us to hand and tempo disruption (and Mindcensor). This is one reason I cautiously like Nyx moving forward: it is already built heavily around tutoring. At the same time, without Top to filter lands and spells to achieve a good mix of both, the deck is going to have some really awful top-heavy draws, which is concerning.

6) I SUSPECT, but do not know (because intricacies of delver mirrors) that Grixis will move back to top dog in Delver land. BUG had the best Miracles matchup, per my understanding, and Grixis with Stifles should be well suited to out-tempoing BUG. This is relevant because it signifies the format speeding up -- one of the reasons we'd been enjoying success for a while is that the format was fairly slow -- most of the top decks gave us a lot of time to set up and overpower. That is no longer going to be true, I think.

I have a tremendous amount of work to do on this subject. I should have something a bit more detailed and, I hope, optimistic within a day or two. I will try to present a range of options across the spectrum of possible Nic Fits.

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Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun

Junk SE fit definitely interests me more now. TBH I don't see Terminus being played. Engineered explosives and Verdict seem much better and what control decks will play as sweepers now imo. I like lost legacy still. Good against combo.

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I guarantee Terminus will still see play as a 4 of. It can be setup with Ponder, Brainstorm, Jace, and Preordain, and it's the only sweeper fast enough to be deployed on turn 3 to deal with decks like Dredge and Aggro. Verdict is too slow, by the time you can cast it you'll be dead.

Bonus quickhit: we really, really, really need to consider the BG<> versions. They may be the biggest gainers out of this whole mess.

Thanks for the summary Brael, and great analysis Arianrhod! I've been following Nyx Fit actually, but I think I'll be going to a tournament this weekend (prize is plane ticket, hotel and byes for GP Vegas, runner ups is duals) and so I'm limited to the cards I have for the moment. Will be testing tonight and tomorrow for sure, playing with a SE/card advantage BGw build that aims to beat delver and midrange G1 and combo sideboard.

Arianrhod, I agree that miracles will likely stick around but its share will go down.I always hated keeping decays in the deck because of Counter Balance when we already have deed, and devoting so many slots and other decisions to the matchup.

Edit: agreed on BG<> I've seen tourmanent reports recently with BG<> decks in legacy (I think with vet and therapy too). I didn't imagine that did I?

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

1) to get this out of the way, Top was completely incorrect of a ban in my opinion. Terminus or Counterbalance were both much better options with less collateral damage. The Top ban was primarily championed by idiots with loudspeakers who should not be permitted to have any amount of weight lent to their opinions, because they don't understand the far-reaching consequences of the actions then endorse. This is roughly analogous to the Lodestone restriction in Vintage, IMO -- championed by the vocal minority, but which had poor consequences for the format (should've been Thorn of Amethyst).

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I agree that Counterbalance would have been better. Wizards has the (flawed IMO) argument of tournament logistics with SDT though, and if you read their reasons that was actually what did it. They said they were fine with SDT from a power level standpoint.

They did it in Vintage too. My beloved Gush is gone yet again (probably never to return) when the real culprit was Monastery Mentor and probably Workshops.

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3) Sneak gets hit arguably the hardest by this. Nyx is also /probably/ not very happy, but the additional consistency loaned by Evolutionary Leap makes it less awful for them. I think that this is an enormous hit to the archetype, mostly because the "best" Nic Fits have always been those which are centered around a combo. Unfortunately, being centered around a combo means an intrinsically higher amount of filtering is required. The "worse" Nic Fits -- meaning the midrange and control options -- are likely on par with or possibly even better than the combo versions now, which will PROBABLY end up being too unstable to function smoothly. I say probably, because I just got home from work and I haven't had time to fully process the big picture or begin developing lists.

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SE doesn't care. If you remember my posts over the past couple months I've already been in the mode of cutting Tops because I found the mana drain on them to slow things down too much. The SDT free hands have always been much more explosive. I *THINK* Sylvan Library is a very easy swap. It's more card advantage and a similar level of filtering at lower total mana spent (but more up front). I don't expect to take many cards off Library though because of Bob. I think Rhinos get hit pretty hard though.

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4a) This likely means that we are going to need to go adventuring in order to find a new "best fit." It could be something reanimator-ish with Collective Brutality and Brainstorm. It could be a Collected Company variant. It could be something that we haven't even thought of as a possibility yet. Sneak escaped notice as a version for a long, long time - who knows what else is lurking?

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Combo worries me. I seem to have a better combo matchup than most Fits but if it sees an uptick I'm going to have a lot of problems.

I maintain my opinion from the other day that Brutality isn't where we want to be. I like it as a 1 of SB card, but if we just want it for discard I like Duress more.

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4b) Expect this to result in more bans as time passes. Hitting Top is going to set off a chain reaction. I expect that within two years, Gaea's Cradle (or Natural Order) and Dark Depths will both be banned, and possibly Lion's Eye Diamond as well.

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Agreed 100%. Miracles was just barely keeping the format in line, without it (though I think a new UW control will rise) Chalice rather than Counterbalance becomes the Chief of Police and that's going to lead to multiple bannings in the future.

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I have a tremendous amount of work to do on this subject. I should have something a bit more detailed and, I hope, optimistic within a day or two. I will try to present a range of options across the spectrum of possible Nic Fits.

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It may be warranted to make a note at the top of the primer about SDT. Just about every list in it includes the card.

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Originally Posted by Brael

I agree that Counterbalance would have been better. Wizards has the (flawed IMO) argument of tournament logistics with SDT though, and if you read their reasons that was actually what did it. They said they were fine with SDT from a power level standpoint.

They did it in Vintage too. My beloved Gush is gone yet again (probably never to return) when the real culprit was Monastery Mentor and probably Workshops.



SE doesn't care. If you remember my posts over the past couple months I've already been in the mode of cutting Tops because I found the mana drain on them to slow things down too much. The SDT free hands have always been much more explosive. I *THINK* Sylvan Library is a very easy swap. It's more card advantage and a similar level of filtering at lower total mana spent (but more up front). I don't expect to take many cards off Library though because of Bob. I think Rhinos get hit pretty hard though.



Combo worries me. I seem to have a better combo matchup than most Fits but if it sees an uptick I'm going to have a lot of problems.

I maintain my opinion from the other day that Brutality isn't where we want to be. I like it as a 1 of SB card, but if we just want it for discard I like Duress more.



Agreed 100%. Miracles was just barely keeping the format in line, without it (though I think a new UW control will rise) Chalice rather than Counterbalance becomes the Chief of Police and that's going to lead to multiple bannings in the future.



It may be warranted to make a note at the top of the primer about SDT. Just about every list in it includes the card.

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Good to know about SE, although I would be very worried about Bob without Top. That's just me, though.

I'm only advocating Brutality as an option in a Reanimator shell. Beyond that, I do not like it, especially with Top gone now.

I'm planning on a more thorough overhaul of the primer, but I can quickly edit it to make any newcomers aware of the issue.

I am really, really not looking forward to redoing the primer again u_u

How about Mirri's Guile as a replacement?

Oh, also, banning Top for "time reasons" is a crock of shit. Hit fucking Counterbalance then. Top only took a bunch off the clock because they had to Top in response to literally every spell.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Good to know about SE, although I would be very worried about Bob without Top. That's just me, though.

I'm only advocating Brutality as an option in a Reanimator shell. Beyond that, I do not like it, especially with Top gone now.

I'm planning on a more thorough overhaul of the primer, but I can quickly edit it to make any newcomers aware of the issue.

I am really, really not looking forward to redoing the primer again u_u

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Bob without Top isn't a big deal. The numbers work out in it's favor, at least with the way I've built my curve. Most of my Bobs are without Tops. You usually draw into one by the time life really matters, and the same logic holds true with Library. Right now I'm thinking of a 1/1 split with Library and Guile (because I don't want to lose too many 1 drops, the second Library tends to be much worse since you already burned your life on cards, and because my self enforced Bob limit of 75 mana pips must be obeyed... I'm currently at 74, so unless I find a cut that's relevant).

There's other ways to interact for Bob too such as Courser which gives you some degree of control over what you hit by manipulating shuffles, clues, etc.

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Originally Posted by Purple Blood

How about Mirri's Guile as a replacement?

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It's been used before. The problem with it, besides Deed is that it's straight card disadvantage. Top always cycled for a card, where as Guile is a straight -1 for a questionable effect.

I think that Library is generally more powerful. Same effect, breaks even on cards pretty easily.

So.....scroll rack just as bad as library....or a different aspect?

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

4a) This likely means that we are going to need to go adventuring in order to find a new "best fit." It could be something reanimator-ish with Collective Brutality and Brainstorm. It could be a Collected Company variant. It could be something that we haven't even thought of as a possibility yet.

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Yes, BUG Reanimator Fit doesn't run SDT, or at least not necessarily, and Leovold and Collective Brutality have appeared since last I tried it. May try it again soon, very fun deck btw.

Edit: the part about not playing top is potentially valid for most BUG lists actually..

I've been playing BUG and used to run 2 Tops alongside 4 Brainstorms... Definitely happy to be playing Brainstorm now, though I might squeeze a Sylvan Library into one of the two slots left. Might take Courser out too, she certainly loses power now, though the deck has still a ton of shuffles.

As for Terminus, I don't think it's good enough to keep seeing play. Top was not only a way to set it up (and more importantly float it as a second card until the board state was flooded enough for it to be worthy) but being able to sweep in the opponent's turn without burning a Brainstorm was huge. Even if it remains as part of a UW control deck, which I don't think so, that deck will have so much less power than miracles that I feel creature-heavy Nic Fit lists will flourish. Looking to play 3 Trackers now.

I'm looking to sub out the two tops in Rhino Fit with another DRS and another Tireless Tracker. I'll roll some testing with diabolic intent, which seems to be a good option for finding SB bullets or deeds.

So we just got WAY better. Hallelujah.

Top being canned hurts us, but it is easily replaced with Sylvan and Truths. Rhino has never had a meta without Miracles, and I think we can do VERY well here.

Consider the fact that worse Delver decks come back (good for us), Maverick (good), Zoo (probably also good), and some Storm variants (worse).

I think we are overall ahead in this. Bear with me while I dance. Any control deck that comes out is either going to be Thopters, Landstill, or SFM based. 2/3 hate Deed. This is fine.

Sigarda and Thrun increase their value in many of these matchups, as Terminus isn't around.

Let's start again.

-Matt

So I'm on holiday for 3 days, pop in the forum for a sec and SDT is banned? Well, wtf lol.

Things are going to get interesting.

@Brael: want to start round 2 of SE Fit development when I get back?

We'll start may 8th, everybody is more than welcome to join!

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Originally Posted by sdematt

So we just got WAY better. Hallelujah.

Top being canned hurts us, but it is easily replaced with Sylvan and Truths. Rhino has never had a meta without Miracles, and I think we can do VERY well here.

Consider the fact that worse Delver decks come back (good for us), Maverick (good), Zoo (probably also good), and some Storm variants (worse).

I think we are overall ahead in this. Bear with me while I dance. Any control deck that comes out is either going to be Thopters, Landstill, or SFM based. 2/3 hate Deed. This is fine.

Sigarda and Thrun increase their value in many of these matchups, as Terminus isn't around.

Let's start again.

-Matt

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Just mashed together Quad Rhino with 2 Bananaslayer Angel and Sigarda. Back to a more agressive build. 2 PTruth and 2 Library, 60 card main with 21 lands. No 6 drop. Its in my sig. I'm pretty excited, whatever happens.

Stuff came up and I won't be able to get to that list of lifegain creatures I promised. Off the top of my head though is Obstinate Baloth, Siege Rhino, Finks, Ooze, Archagnel of Thune, Spike Feeder, Courser of Kruphix, Deathrite Shaman, Thragtusk, and Umezawa's Jitte. There's plenty there to make something with the ability to get a lot of draws out of Sylvan Library.

Edit: Decided on what I'm doing for my build too. -1 Abrupt Decay, -2 SDT, +1 Fatal Push, +2 Sylvan Library. This keeps me within my mana curve requirements and still enables some filtering/draws.

Here's some preliminary thoughts and decklists for y'all:

Expected new metagame (tier 1.5+):
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lands, elves, DnT, storm, show and tell, shardless, aluren, eldrazi / dragonstompy, delver (mostly bug and grixis)
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conclusions we can draw from the above metagame:

Note: I expect Food Chain to fall off somewhat short-term because Miracles was one of the deck's best matchups. Eventually, I think it will pick back up as Abrupt Decay disappears from the format (more on this later).

Blood moon is likely very good, which suggests that Dragonstompy will be the favored Chalice deck. Possibly Big Red or some other deviant, but Dragonstompy is probably the best version of the red stompy shell atm.

Sweepers are about 50% effective. When you need them, you really need them -- but the rest of the time they'll be kind of mediocre. Spot removal that doesn't hit non-creature permanents or Merit Lage is probably not good enough. 3-mana removal spells, Path to Exile / StP, and edicts (to the slaughter) are likely good, with other spot removal falling off quite hard (especially Abrupt Decay).

Discard spells are kind of junky. Permanent-based hate solutions are likely better, but the ones in question need to be carefully selected.

5 of those decks are flat combo decks. The remaining 4 win by overwhelming advantage accrued through subsequent turns. I would say that, if we haven't done something backbreaking by turn 4 in the new format, we're not going to get the chance to. The combo decks will have killed us and the advantage decks will have developed too far of a lead.

This concerns me with regards to Rhino. Historically, Rhino has not had the best matchups vs the above decks, and I'm not confidant in the Top ban helping that. I think we need to be either more controlling/disruptive or more aggressive/proactive than Rhino is capable of being -- that middle ground just isn't going to be a good place to be, I think. With that in mind, here are some speculative lists:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Night's Whisper
2 Diabolic Intent

3 Pernicious Deed
4 Sneak Attack

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
1 Primeval Titan
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Lost Legacy
1 To the Slaughter
1 Pyroblast
2 Blood Moon
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Engineered Plague
2 Fatal Push
1 Chalice of the Void

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New version of Sneak was, of course, my first look. I think that spot removal is going to be absolutely ass moving forward. This version runs very light on removal, with some slight backup from Huntmaster and Inferno. Huntmaster and Thrag provide the lifegain to compensate for Night's Whisper, as well as extra bodies for Diabolic Intent, which will help tie the combo together.

Two copies of Intent necessitate the presence of Dryad Arbor, to turn extra lands mid/late game into a tutor. It does also turn Zenith@0 into a draw spell with a Tracker, which is minor but might matter somewhat.

Primeval moves to the board now that his primary reason for existing maindeck is gone. He might not even be needed, but I want to keep him in the board just in case. The ability to run a Chalice of the Void out of the board to tutor for is one of my favorite features of this list, and will likely end up in other versions as well.

Basically, the maindeck is focused on doing what it does best and only runs minimal interaction, favoring its own gameplan instead of interacting with the opponent. We still have the Deeds, we still have the Pulse, Inferno + Hunts, Sneak + Emrakul, Therapies, etc -- but it's noticeably less than we once had, for sure.

The sideboard has a lot of powerful but specific answers. This is definitely a sideboard that is built with Demonic Tutor in mind. Storm is likely unwinnable, but I don't think that it's even worth trying to fix that matchup, moving into the new world. We have a Chalice to tutor for, we have Lost Legacy to hopefully strip something important quickly, and beyond that, we just focus on our own deck and trying to Sneak them as quickly as possible. Other than Storm, I think that this sideboard matches up fairly well vs the expected metagame.

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4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wood Elves
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Ancient Stirrings

2 Crop Rotation

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Fatal Push
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 To the Slaughter

Colorless was where I wanted to look next. Not going to pretend this isn't rough, but there's a lot going on here that I like.

Ancient Stirrings is a particularly powerful selection card. It sucks that it loses Top as a hit, but it is arguably better at being Traverse the Ulvenwald than Traverse is -- it's lands early game, disruption mid game, and a wincon late game. A pair of Crop Rotations help give the deck resilency against Wasteland while also increasing the number of broken starts it is capable of.

While this deck has even less removal (1 EE, 2 Deed, 1 Ulamog), it does have the full set of Thought-Knots to help out, which makes the deck fairly disruptive. Otherwise, it is once again going to do what it does -- the full set of Trackers should allow the deck to keep up and run away with some games, while the Stirrings help to smooth out the early game. A pair of Ancient Tombs help make early Thought-Knots more viable, as well as helping to cast the big guns and ALSO speeding up your anti-combo sideboard hate: the full playset of Chalice of the Void, which can additionally be found by Ancient Stirrings. This allows you to dig incredibly deep with a Stirrings to find meaningful interaction on turn 1 vs combo -- even just a Chalice on 0 is amazing vs Storm and can slow Show and Tell by a not-irrelevant amount of time. Chalice is also great vs Elves, for obvious reasons.

Wurmcoil helps with Eldrazi and the BUG decks, TTS is generic planeswalker removal (and also helps vs Show and Tell and Merit Lage), the rest is pretty standard.

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4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Siege Rhino
1 Atraxa, Preator's Voice
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Night's Whisper
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Path to Exile
1 Anguished Unmaking

1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

3 Pernicious Deed

1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

sb::
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Fatal Push
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Celestial Purge
1 To the Slaughter
2 Lost Legacy
1 Reclamation Sage

This is my first stab at a controlling white list. Atraxa is present as a zenithable Baneslayer first, and as counter manipluation second. The Island may not be necessary, but I'd start with it and find out rather than the reverse. Only one Diabolic Intent can be supported here, I feel. Some number of Lingering Souls is also worth a half a thought, but space feels pretty tight -- I couldn't get the 2nd Tracker I wanted, either.

The removal suite in this deck seems like it should be favorably positioned against the upcoming format. Path and StP can be debated all day -- I'm personally worried about Merit Lage, and you'll never, ever kill them with 20 extra life, so I opted for Path. I also feel like the ramp has fringe benefits vs decks you don't want to acceleration (ie you can Path your Vet vs Storm).

The sideboard looks like hot fire. The hateful bears (and tutorable Chalice) is where I want to move with my sideboarding, along with a move to Lost Legacy for a little extra speed. Thoughtseize seems really bad to me, and Surgical seems even worse. The board also has a good, wide range of additional removal options.

Good lists. I like your thoughts on removal. I'm going to consider them myself.

I 100% agree that Chalice is going to be an issue. I'll take that prediction a step further though. Without the Top/CB lock, a Chalice (most often Chalice for 1) is going to be the biggest policeman in the format. Anyone can play it, and anyone can land it for one easily.

I think this is going to up the CMC of our deck a little. I'm going to stick with my Crop Rotation plan for now, since it leads into Towers and explosive openings but that's very tenative. Chalice on 1 ruins that plan pretty hard.

Elves is going to require a different removal set. I'm pretty interested in some Golgari Charms right now in the SB. The same holds true for Toxic Deluge. Some other decks will be bringing in Library to replace Top too, so Charm should pull double duty there.

D&T is basically unchanged. Unless they start running Mirran Crusaders again.

With Storm, going up to 4 Lost Legacy might not be the worst idea in the world. I've been running 2 and it's been solid. 4 to really deal with combo probably holds some merit though even though I'm not often a fan of 4 of's in the SB.

I've been leaning towards the idea of some MB Lost Legacy even, this could be a good format for that. But I don't know where I would make the cuts yet.

One more post. Here's the adjustments I made to my build

Summary:
-1 Fetch, +1 Tower. Tower starts are the fastest, I'm worried about Chalice on 1 messing that up
-2 SDT, +2 Sylvan Library. Ban changes.
-1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Fatal Push. Hits more creatures, helps keep the curve in tact.
-1 Deed +1 Deluge. Keeps curve in tact, diversifies answers, helps preserve Library. MB because of Elves.
-1 Geist, +1 Pulse. Alters the threat/answer balance a bit, but I agree with the above post about this being the time to push our 3 CMC removal. Giest got the cut, because without Miracles I don't need a hasted way to smack a PW right now.

SB: Massive changes. Dropped the Dark Depths plan for now. With that looking to be the formats control deck, the combo has too much of a bullseye on it. Instead I added more threats/answers.
-3 DD, -2 Stage +2 Lost Legacy, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Carpet of Flowers. Carpet is speculative, without Miracles there's fewer decks we want it against, but there are a few like S&T and Shardless.


Land (23)

2x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Dryad Arbor
5x Forest
1x Maze of Ith
2x Phyrexian Tower
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
3x Windswept Heath

Enchantment (3)

1x Pernicious Deed
2x Sylvan Library

Creature (16)

1x Courser of Kruphix
4x Dark Confidant
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2x Tireless Tracker
4x Veteran Explorer

Instant (7)

2x Abrupt Decay
2x Crop Rotation
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Fatal Push

Planeswalker (2)

2x Nissa, Vital Force

Sorcery (10)

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Toxic Deluge

Sideboard (15)

2x Carpet of Flowers
1x Crop Rotation
2x Deathrite Shaman
2x Golgari Charm
1x Karakas
4x Lost Legacy
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Treetop Village

First post, I guess. Been playing Magic since Apocalypse in various forms, mostly EDH. I have been wanting to get into Legacy for years and finally made the plunge and put together Sneaky Fit and Rhino Fit on MTGO last week. Learning this deck has been a blast! I bought my duals and fetches for both variants yesterday in paper, but now that Legacy is going nuts I think I will hold off on grabbing anything other than the core cards (Veteran Explorer, CT, GSZ, etc.) in paper until things settle down a little bit and the meta is more established.

That said, I've been playing all day since I got home from work, trying out new cards and whatnot. So far I have been liking Painful Truths replacing my SDT. It can be a bit awkward drawing the weird one-ofs we tend to run in Nic Fit so I do miss the filtering of SDT just a tiny bit, but overall I don't miss it too much. Sylvan Library has been okay, super good vs. combo to see more potential answers. I rarely deed it away against combo as well. (For whatever that's worth, coming from someone who has only been playing Legacy for a week.)

New Vizier might actually be viable as a 1 of in rhino? Since I'm expecting to see less plows he is unkillable, has a nice booty and gives CA/selection through fetches? And unlike courser he doesn't show our top to the opponent (the real reason courser is bad).
I think this is the time of the rhino resurgence. Sigarda (and thrun) suddenly are a LOT better now. 2-3 truths might be the replacement of top in that build.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

New Vizier might actually be viable as a 1 of in rhino? Since I'm expecting to see less plows he is unkillable, has a nice booty and gives CA/selection through fetches? And unlike courser he doesn't show our top to the opponent (the real reason courser is bad).
I think this is the time of the rhino resurgence. Sigarda (and thrun) suddenly are a LOT better now. 2-3 truths might be the replacement of top in that build.

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I dunno about less Plow. Stoneblade will be around more now.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

I dunno about less Plow. Stoneblade will be around more now.

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Possibly, but it doesn't hurt as a 1 of for the late game.

Can we all talk about all the sb slots that now become open thanks to this format being actually enjoyable again?

How can we fill the space? What do we remove from the side?

I think some number of golgari charm and/or deluge are a must (elves) now. Now I can remove the three (!!!!!) chokes from the side of my GB Fit deck.

I think that now I have the space to finally play 4 leylines of the void to auto win (sort of) any kind of gy match up. Reanimator and lands got a boost from this ban, and 4 leylines (with maindeck drs and ooze) solve the problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

I think that now I have the space to finally play 4 leylines of the void to auto win (sort of) any kind of gy match up. Reanimator and lands got a boost from this ban, and 4 leylines (with maindeck drs and ooze) solve the problem.

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Good point, we could probably get away with running 3 in the board, since we can easily cast the card.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Good point, we could probably get away with running 3 in the board, since we can easily cast the card.

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The point is that LotV doesn't have that sweet ETB effect, unlike RiP: so the key benefit of having 4 leylines is achieved due to the increased chance of having the auto win in the opener.
If we cast one leylines their shit remains in the yard and that can lead only to bad things for us. Plus if we get to 4 mana we were going to win the gy matchup anyways (I'm not talking about lands here).
I like the splash damage against storm, although surgical is better in that matchup.

And I strongly disagree with Arian (is this the first time? [emoji4]) on the discard spells being worse now. Instead I think discard effects are even better: we are going to see more stoneforges and discard snipes their stuff from their hand. On the top of that, discard is better against all the combo we are going to see.
1 mana discard was bad against miracles thanks to counterbalance, now that card doesn't exist anymore.

Call me crazy, but I think Nic Fit benefits from modal type cards. Especially with a format in flux, I want to have brutality and liliana as of this post. My rationale is that both of those cards easily fit into anyone's list and have the flex to play on-curve as additional discard (therapy, brutality, liliana) or removal. The larger question mark is "wtf she'll do you run said cards in?"
I PM'ed Kevin and tossed around the idea of BG reanimator fit. I just can't get the packages to work in 60 cards so I might as well ask it here. I think you can fit entomb/buried alive + reanimate/exhume/animate dead + brutality/therapy/liliana + finishers. Not sure how it all works out. It is not sneak fit, which can be nic fit but laterally change gears for the combo kill. This would be a more dedicated game plan. You win through griselbrand, Iona, inkwell, and elesh.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warden

Call me crazy, but I think Nic Fit benefits from modal type cards. Especially with a format in flux, I want to have brutality and liliana as of this post. My rationale is that both of those cards easily fit into anyone's list and have the flex to play on-curve as additional discard (therapy, brutality, liliana) or removal. The larger question mark is "wtf she'll do you run said cards in?"
I PM'ed Kevin and tossed around the idea of BG reanimator fit. I just can't get the packages to work in 60 cards so I might as well ask it here. I think you can fit entomb/buried alive + reanimate/exhume/animate dead + brutality/therapy/liliana + finishers. Not sure how it all works out. It is not sneak fit, which can be nic fit but laterally change gears for the combo kill. This would be a more dedicated game plan. You win through griselbrand, Iona, inkwell, and elesh.

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Doesn't seem where we want to be since now this format is going to see a lot more DRSs..I hope I'm wrong though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warden

Call me crazy, but I think Nic Fit benefits from modal type cards. Especially with a format in flux, I want to have brutality and liliana as of this post. My rationale is that both of those cards easily fit into anyone's list and have the flex to play on-curve as additional discard (therapy, brutality, liliana) or removal. The larger question mark is "wtf she'll do you run said cards in?"
I PM'ed Kevin and tossed around the idea of BG reanimator fit. I just can't get the packages to work in 60 cards so I might as well ask it here. I think you can fit entomb/buried alive + reanimate/exhume/animate dead + brutality/therapy/liliana + finishers. Not sure how it all works out. It is not sneak fit, which can be nic fit but laterally change gears for the combo kill. This would be a more dedicated game plan. You win through griselbrand, Iona, inkwell, and elesh.

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This theoretical deck may want some number of Fauna Shaman as well. At worst it can pitch a fatty and get you something dumb like Karmic Guide

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warden

... This would be a more dedicated game plan. You win through griselbrand, Iona, inkwell, and elesh.

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There are 2 Reanimator variants out there with a very dedicated gameplan, winning with said creatures.
I honestly don't think, a dedicated reanimator NicFit variant could do better than them.

What the NicFit core does, is giving you (a)symmetric access to a lot of lands. If you try to reanimate creatures (fast) why would you need that core?

I went with -1 Decay, -3 Tops, +2 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Sylvan Library in my Nyx List that I posted earlier. -3 Carpets, +2 Lost Legacy, +1 Deluge in the side. That's I think about the most I can do with the cards I have online atm. Started a league last night and am 1-2 in it - beat bug delver, lost to ur delver and omnitell.

I don't have Meren (30 tix!!) to put in my bug list but she should be there.

Way to go after Top-ban(?):
With the threat of Terminus diminished, a strategy to build a board aggressively can be generally accepted.
For NicFit this also includes Dryad Arbor.

About the Meta:
A lot of decks depended on Miracles being the "fun police".
"Control" decks like Stoneblade, 4c/Grixis Control or BUG didn't really have to prepare for swarming strategies, because those simply couldn't get past the early Terminus. If any at all, there is 1 Toxic deluge in 75 cards.
For me the question is, if swarming decks make a comeback or not. Merfolk? Zoo?
If you look at a pre-Miracles Metagame the top aggro decks were Merfolk, Maverick, Bant and Zoo. Not much left of those today.

I say if those decks make a comeback, we are well positioned and deed will be great again.
If the meta completely degenerates into dominant combo variants and decks to punish them - well, we still can beat one half of that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

Doesn't seem where we want to be since now this format is going to see a lot more DRSs..I hope I'm wrong though.

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I think this is a bit hyperbole. I still kick ass with large KotRs despite DRS being a format staple. Likewise, reanimator is already a thing (and doing well). The presence of DRS doesn't automatically invalidate GY strategies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

This theoretical deck may want some number of Fauna Shaman as well. At worst it can pitch a fatty and get you something dumb like Karmic Guide

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Thanks for the advice! Fauna may be a better setup, as it aids the core Nic Fit experience as well as the reanimator plan. There's also the idea of Pod with a reanimator/karmic guide spin. Karmic is quite playable @ CMC 5.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emuhell

There are 2 Reanimator variants out there with a very dedicated gameplan, winning with said creatures.
I honestly don't think, a dedicated reanimator NicFit variant could do better than them.

What the NicFit core does, is giving you (a)symmetric access to a lot of lands. If you try to reanimate creatures (fast) why would you need that core?

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Tbh, it's something I'd like to venture into. I am not declaring it a superior product. But look at SneakFit. You're essentially stating "Why bother with SneakFit when Sneak/Show.dec already exists?" It's so easy to write off strategies because a dedicated deck already exists. I value your points about Nic Fit's shell benefiting from rapid basic land acceleration. That's certainly true. It's definitely something I still want to find a way to leverage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warden

Tbh, it's something I'd like to venture into. I am not declaring it a superior product. But look at SneakFit. You're essentially stating "Why bother with SneakFit when Sneak/Show.dec already exists?" It's so easy to write off strategies because a dedicated deck already exists. I value your points about Nic Fit's shell benefiting from rapid basic land acceleration. That's certainly true. It's definitely something I still want to find a way to leverage.

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I am sorry if I sounded overly harsh. You should definitely try to make it work!

SneakFit is able to cast its creatures (well, not Emrakul). In fact, the deck works fine without and very good with Sneak attack.

Maybe a Reanimator deck that also casts its creatures could be a thing.
I played Grisly Salvage + Unburial Rites (+Faithless Looting) in standard a few years ago. A deck that could heavily support Liliana of the Veil.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emuhell

I am sorry if I sounded overly harsh. You should definitely try to make it work!

SneakFit is able to cast its creatures (well, not Emrakul). In fact, the deck works fine without and very good with Sneak attack.

Maybe a Reanimator deck that also casts its creatures could be a thing.
I played Grisly Salvage + Unburial Rites (+Faithless Looting) in standard a few years ago. A deck that could heavily support Liliana of the Veil.

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Yeah, that's the idea, I think. Or at least, that was what I was doing when ReaniFit was the way to go in Dig Through Time the format. Grave Titan is a hell of a thing to both reanimate and also cast. It operated along the way axis that Sneak does currently.

Also, I have won multiple games casting Emrakul, thank you very much :3