[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

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Originally Posted by lunar_eternal_blue

I personally love enlightened tutor in this deck for several reasons. First of all, as mentioned before, it can grab either piece of the countertop combo. It can also grab dreadnought turn one at EoT so that you can play a turn 2 nought. Finally, it lets you run a toolbox either sideboard or mainboard (or both).Some things it can grab that trinket mage can't that I like are crucible, serenity, oblivion ring and lightning greaves. It also grabs E. Explosives turn 1 in case of an early Empty the Warrens. I just think that trinket mage is too slow. I know E. tutor gives you card disadvantage, but I think it is still worth it.

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Just curious, what your list look like? That e.tutor just seems unnecessary to me, because trinket mage does exact same thing, just little slower but still doing it. We have plenty of counters to slow opponent to turn three or so on, when we can play that Trinket mage what also block and attack what e.tutor doesn't do. That maybe be bad argument but it's fact. And that crusible, what is that for? If you wanna ruin opponents manabase that Magus of the moon will be fine if not the best on that job. Just ask Roodmistah. EtW, can be denyed by stifle or/and trickbind so that won't be a huge problem.

What do you guys think about Fire//Ice main and Magus of the Moon sb? I'm thinking I like fire//ice for the fact it can slow people down on a land screw and help against tombstalker and such. Plus fire can help with spot removal with mishra's or just burn and what not/ I haven't tested yet but I def. am going to.

i play Ugr dreadstill with goyfs main

i play magus side specifically for 3/4 color decks with like 1 basic land, i side in magus basically for the goyfs and it works well

fire/ice is amazing maindeck, i currently run 3...it taps down creatures, it fries merfolk, goblins, slivers, elves, etc, it pitches to fow, it is quite a nice utility card

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Originally Posted by psu42

i play Ugr dreadstill with goyfs main

i play magus side specifically for 3/4 color decks with like 1 basic land, i side in magus basically for the goyfs and it works well

fire/ice is amazing maindeck, i currently run 3...it taps down creatures, it fries merfolk, goblins, slivers, elves, etc, it pitches to fow, it is quite a nice utility card

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Can you write down you decklist + SB? I really like the Goyfs in main. I play it the same, but the Fire/Ice idea is also fine. But what for?
Thanx
ZUZY

Hallo all,

What is better version for Dreadstill. With splash for Green for Tarmogoyf or without splash and with +3x Spell Snare and +1x Trickbind?

Thank you
ZUZY

Hey,
i'm going to play the following list on a Tournament next sunday...

creatures

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf

instant

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

enchantment

3 counterbalance
4 Standstill

artifact

2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top

land

3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland


Sideboard:

3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Firespout

What is your Boarding Strategy against Goyf Sligh, Threshold, Team America and Landstill. What in what out?

Hallo,

If you will play just 3x Dradnoughts and 2x Trinket Mage, that you will have problems to play Dread/Stifle really fast. That is what you want.

Than the Spell Snare is good card, but you have to have 1 mana free.

I am playin the almost same version, but like:

- 3x Spell Snare
+ 1x Dreadnought
+ 1x Trinket Mage
+ 1x Land - Island or Tropical

Land drop every turn is necessary and sometimes even with 21 lands it is problem.

SB: I had problems with Goblins. And I had 2x Pyroclasm and 1x Firespount. On the other side I have never sided in the Krosan Grips. If you want to play the version with Spell Snares, you should be able to counter the Conterbalance.

Than the Pyroclasm is better, that Firespout. It WILL happened to you, that you will not have 3 mana to play Firespount. It seems better, but you will be tapped by Rishadan Port and will have problems to get 3rd mana.

My SB is now:

3x REB
3x BEB
2x Pithing Needle - Vial, Port, Grindstone, Seismic Assault...
2x Krosan Grip - to have something against CB. I am not playing the Spell Snares
2x Pyroclasm
1x Firespount
2x Tormod´s Crypt

ZUZY

What you guys do against a resolved Tombstalker? I wouldn't play Dreadstill without a Bounce or any removal.

I really think it's lacking in your build. Maybe in the Grip's or the Needle's spots, put Echoing truth, and so you will be able to side them against TA. Combined with Tormod's, it can slow them a lot, especially in the mid/late game because they can't fill the graveyard quickly.

PM

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Originally Posted by Enigma

What you guys do against a resolved Tombstalker? I wouldn't play Dreadstill without a Bounce or any removal.

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Submerge is the new hotness, haven't you heard?

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Originally Posted by Enigma

What you guys do against a resolved Tombstalker? I wouldn't play Dreadstill without a Bounce or any removal.

I really think it's lacking in your build. Maybe in the Grip's or the Needle's spots, put Echoing truth, and so you will be able to side them against TA. Combined with Tormod's, it can slow them a lot, especially in the mid/late game because they can't fill the graveyard quickly.

PM

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I agree with JV, Submerge seems awful good, seems good in some mirror matches as well, if they're running 'goyf as well as 'nought. Are we at the point where Submerge might be pretty good as a 4x in the SB?

Where would you fit in a playset of Submerges? It doesn't hit Dreadnaughts, and sometimes won't even hit Tombstalkers. Swords to Plowshares, Wipe Away, Rushing River, Threads of Disloyalty, and Echoing Truth all seem like more flexible (if less cool) options. If you had all the space in the world, it'd be neat to have available, but with a cramped sideboard, I'll take the more flexible removal over the more powerful but narrow removal.

The only matchup that runs Tombstalker that you care about is Team America and it WILL hit tombstalker against them. As for Dreadnought, that may be true, but the mirror often comes down to Mishra's Factory anyways...

Anyways I'm not sure if we really need 4 in the board, I'm currently running 3. This is my Current board:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Submerge
2 Firespout
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle

Submerge is somewhat nice, but I don't think it is as flexible as echoing truth.

Truth also can get tokens against ichorid or combo when it matters and is also useful for bouncing opposing multiples of goyf and then counterbalancing them when they are replayed.

I also run Magus sideboard for 3+ color decks and Team America which generally only runs 1 basic and if they don't see it coming, or even if they do, if it resolves you generally can hold on and win.

It needs more testing to be proved a solid choice in the sideboard, but Submerge definetally seems powerful given the rise of Tombcaver and whatnot. I'm just not sold on it yet though, Echoing Truth seems to fill the role better.

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Originally Posted by J.V.

Submerge is the new hotness, haven't you heard?

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Yes i did. I'm running it in Canadian Trash and it is really good.

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Originally Posted by Enigma

Yes i did. I'm running it in Canadian Trash and it is really good.

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Yup. That's where the idea came from.

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Originally Posted by J.V.

Yup. That's where the idea came from.

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Are you sure the red splash is worth it for just Firespout? 2 more basic Islands would help solidify the mana base, helping against other Stifle/Wasteland strategies. You could make the Firespout into either the 2 Echoing Truth people seem to want, or possibly 1 Pithing Needle and 1 Crucible. Another Needle would help shore up the Gobos match up, and Crucible is obviously great against control.

Also, with that SB, how would you board against an average Survival deck? Mostly, it seems like Submerge should come in, but I can't imagine what I should bring out for it.

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Are you sure the red splash is worth it for just Firespout? 2 more basic Islands would help solidify the mana base, helping against other Stifle/Wasteland strategies. You could make the Firespout into either the 2 Echoing Truth people seem to want, or possibly 1 Pithing Needle and 1 Crucible. Another Needle would help shore up the Gobos match up, and Crucible is obviously great against control.

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Yes. You need firespout against speed aggro decks, like Elves! or Goblins. The fact that it comes in against dragon stompy to clear moon magi, RPD, and un-Hellbent Gathan Raiders is just an added bonus.

The red splash consists for me of two red duals, and swapping those to basics really wont make the manabase THAT much more consistent.

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Originally Posted by bocci

Are you sure the red splash is worth it for just Firespout? 2 more basic Islands would help solidify the mana base, helping against other Stifle/Wasteland strategies. You could make the Firespout into either the 2 Echoing Truth people seem to want, or possibly 1 Pithing Needle and 1 Crucible. Another Needle would help shore up the Gobos match up, and Crucible is obviously great against control.

Also, with that SB, how would you board against an average Survival deck? Mostly, it seems like Submerge should come in, but I can't imagine what I should bring out for it.

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I first started out with the same thoughts as you. I was playing no fetchies/duals. And i played back to basics, but the fact is the reason you play red spash is to exponentially improve some match ups.

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Originally Posted by Irish_Mafia

I first started out with the same thoughts as you. I was playing no fetchies/duals. And i played back to basics, but the fact is the reason you play red spash is to exponentially improve some match ups.

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Exponentially? Well, I'm all ears, then! What matchups do the red splash improve and why?

Hallo,

Regarding my SB options I choose.

I had 2x Echoing Truth in my SB at my last tournament. And I have never sided them in. There was no need for that. I had it there instead of 2x T. Crypt. I knew, that there will be no ichorid.

Now I have 4x "free" spots there. 2x Krosan Grip and 2x T. Crypt. In the Larger tournaments, I WANT to have the T.Crypts there.

The Krosan Grip is there mainly for Couterbalance, which is quite played here. But it´s spot can be used also for 2x Echoing Truth. It is more easy to counter with Counterbalance, but it can target "everything".

RED COLOUR IN MD:

I have Red colour in MD because of mass removal - 2xPyroclasm and 1x Firespount + 3x REB. It is really perfect card. Against a lot of decks. Almost "every" deck play blue....

ZUZY

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda

Yes. You need firespout against speed aggro decks, like Elves! or Goblins. The fact that it comes in against dragon stompy to clear moon magi, RPD, and un-Hellbent Gathan Raiders is just an added bonus.

The red splash consists for me of two red duals, and swapping those to basics really wont make the manabase THAT much more consistent.

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Well, Rood has cut them from his board. If he can do it, I feel like we should be able to was well, and we even have Tarmogoyf.

Yeah I had put them back in again just to see if it changes anything but I tested against Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk. Everytime I boarded in all 3 Clasms and they didn't do anything for me so they're staying out permanently most likely.

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Originally Posted by Roodmistah

Yeah I had put them back in again just to see if it changes anything but I tested against Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk. Everytime I boarded in all 3 Clasms and they didn't do anything for me so they're staying out permanently most likely.

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And why should they? Dropping a 12/12 trampling creature is what makes the deck so fun to play against little men. I can, however, see Merfolk being annoying with countermagic pre-board, but that should be the least of your worries. Trinket Mage solves all of your problems with Explosives or anything else you can find (like a 12/12) that can thrash an opponent.

And Stifles sometimes against Goblins tend to come out quicker from your hand than you'd like, I'm assuming. After all, the C.I.P. effects in Goblins are quite powerful and theres no reason to think you wouldn't consider Stifling a turn one Lackey trigger when you have Factory in hand and an Island out and you're on the draw. Stifles are just that huge.

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And why should they? Dropping a 12/12 trampling creature is what makes the deck so fun to play against little men. I can, however, see Merfolk being annoying with countermagic pre-board, but that should be the least of your worries. Trinket Mage solves all of your problems with Explosives or anything else you can find (like a 12/12) that can thrash an opponent.

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Do not assume you get dreadnought every game. The games you have him he's a house against speed aggro, but you simply do not draw stifle and nought every hand. In those situations, where you have to dig for three or even four turns in order to get the nought, it's very possible for speedy aggro to stomp you into the ground. I personally have played several games against elves, and can say from experience that if you don't have the turn-two nought-combo, you're not going to be able to race them. They dump their hand all over the table every game by turn two (three at the latest) casting at least 2-3 spells on the second turn. You can't just sit back and counter all of that, or at least my Ugr version cant. In those cases, they're going to squish you.

While trinket mage seems attractive as a way to find explosives or a nought, remember that it comes down on turn three, and then whatever you found comes down on turn four. This can be too little too late.

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Yeah I had put them back in again just to see if it changes anything but I tested against Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk. Everytime I boarded in all 3 Clasms and they didn't do anything for me so they're staying out permanently most likely.

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I'd love to hear the specifics here. Did you draw into them consistently? Was the damage from clasm not enough, or was it that it didn't clear enough creatures? I'd like to hear how these games panned out.

Thank,

TheRedPanda

Pyroclasm can get you to some major blow out games against some decks!

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Originally Posted by Roodmistah

Yeah I had put them back in again just to see if it changes anything but I tested against Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk. Everytime I boarded in all 3 Clasms and they didn't do anything for me so they're staying out permanently most likely.

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Hallo,

Cay tell me more about that? I had the feeling, that the DMG from Pyroclasm aren´t enought. Because of some +1/+1 efects from Slivers, Merfolks and so on. That is why I have Firesoupt in the SB.

But Pyroclasm helped me all the time well. Every time, when there is a trade at least 1 for 2. Is really good. The more you trade this 1 card for more of your oponnents, the better.

My problem was, that I mis-sideboarded in the G2 against Goblins. I sided 3x BEB, 2x Pyro, 1x Firespout, 2x Pithing Needle for 4x Standstill, 4x Coutnerbalance.

If I will sided out 4x Standstill and 4x FoW, than it will be much better. The game went really long and the Counterbalance will win me the game. It was like TopDeck mode. The Goblins were RW for SB cards - Orims Chant, Swords, Seal of Cleansing. Swords and Seals can be easily coutnered by Counterbalance without loosing the 2nd card, like with FoW.

ZUZY

ZUZY

Its rather uncommon that both players go into topdeck mode in my expierence. I would never side out the cards you mentioned. Look at this boarding plan and let me know what you think.

On the play:
-3 CB (try to setup an early Nought OR Standstill. CB is iffy, because they always can slip through something)
-2 EE (too many different casting costs)
-2 Spell Snare (needed room for better cards)
+3 BEB
+2 Needle
+2 Pyroclasm / Firespout

On the draw:
-3 CB
-4 Daze
+3 BEB
+2 Needle
+2 Pyroclasm / Firespout
(-1 EE / +1 Firespout)
I wouldnt go to three Clasm effects overall

If you dont run Clasm effects i would keep the Spell Snares to hit Warrens Weirding, Tin Street and Piledriver. If you expect Chalice then you better keep the EE's in ofc.

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Originally Posted by deadlock

Its rather uncommon that both players go into topdeck mode in my expierence. I would never side out the cards you mentioned. Look at this boarding plan and let me know what you think.

On the play:
-3 CB (try to setup an early Nought OR Standstill. CB is iffy, because they always can slip through something)
-2 EE (too many different casting costs)
-2 Spell Snare (needed room for better cards)
+3 BEB
+2 Needle
+2 Pyroclasm / Firespout

On the draw:
-3 CB
-4 Daze
+3 BEB
+2 Needle
+2 Pyroclasm / Firespout
(-1 EE / +1 Firespout)
I wouldnt go to three Clasm effects overall

If you dont run Clasm effects i would keep the Spell Snares to hit Warrens Weirding, Tin Street and Piledriver. If you expect Chalice then you better keep the EE's in ofc.

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I am not sure, if you know that my SB is looking like this:

3x BEB
3x REB
2x Pyroclasm
1x Firespout
2x Tormods Crypt
2x Krosan Grip
2x Pithing Needle

About your SB Ideas:

I am almost always SB out standstill, because they have early Aether Vial or Lackey. After this is is really hard to play Standstill, with them on the board.

Daze seems also week to me, but it can stop early threads.

To be honest I didn´t play that much games against the Goblins. So I don´t know if my SB plans are good.

ZUZY

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Originally Posted by zuzy

I am not sure, if you know that my SB is looking like this:

3x BEB
3x REB
2x Pyroclasm
1x Firespout
2x Tormods Crypt
2x Krosan Grip
2x Pithing Needle

About your SB Ideas:

I am almost always SB out standstill, because they have early Aether Vial or Lackey. After this is is really hard to play Standstill, with them on the board.

Daze seems also week to me, but it can stop early threads.

To be honest I didn´t play that much games against the Goblins. So I don´t know if my SB plans are good.

ZUZY

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Siding FoW out in any case is BAD. Never ever don't side them out. What i see from deadlock's post that seems quite good plan against goblins.

Strange but i have been losing more against goblins than merfolks :E Some said that merfolks should be worst matchup of tribal decks. But dunno then..
I played today against merfolks (mono-u version) and games went 6-4 for my favor. I could win couple games but i was so freezed. Those games were played without sideboard btw.. Pyroclasm could shine there if we would use sideboards, maybe next time. Only card what did cause i some problems was suprise, suprise Loa. When that don't hit table or i have nought in play it was a win for me.

Goblins can be troublesome, but you wont face them too often - speaking of the UR build. I am curious, with Tarmogoyf they should be quite manageable, arent they?

Placey 2nd in a small local tournament today, i felt quite confident with the UR build.

My question is, how to board correctly against Aggro Loam (consider the standard sideboard, with some numbers changed).
First off, how good is Counterbalance? They have quite some three drops, so its power is diminished i suppose.
If so i would go for something like this:
On the play:
-3 CB
-1 Trickbind
-1 Spell Snare
-3 Spell Snare
+3 BEB
+2 Relic

On the draw:
-2 Daze
-3 CB
+3 BEB
+2 Relic

On the other hand if you mange to set the CB up with a two drop on the top you should be in a good position.
In this case the boarding plan for me would look like:
Play:
-1 Trickbind
-3 Spell Snare
+2 BEB
+2 Relic

Draw:
-4 Daze
-1 Trickbind
+3 BEB
+2 Relic

Some builds run Solitary Confiment, a couple of Echoing Truths should come handy here.
Also i thought about siding out one Trinket Mage too, but considering their two drops and more importantly their COTV and Moxen, i have the feeling that i need the maximum number of EE.

BTW: If someone is interested in testing matchups, drop a PM - i really want to squeeze the last bit out of this. :eyebrow:

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Originally Posted by deadlock

Goblins can be troublesome, but you wont face them too often - speaking of the UR build. I am curious, with Tarmogoyf they should be quite manageable, arent they?

Placey 2nd in a small local tournament today, i felt quite confident with the UR build.

My question is, how to board correctly against Aggro Loam (consider the standard sideboard, with some numbers changed).
First off, how good is Counterbalance? They have quite some three drops, so its power is diminished i suppose.
If so i would go for something like this:
On the play:
-3 CB
-1 Trickbind
-1 Spell Snare
-3 Spell Snare
+3 BEB
+2 Relic

On the draw:
-2 Daze
-3 CB
+3 BEB
+2 Relic

On the other hand if you mange to set the CB up with a two drop on the top you should be in a good position.
In this case the boarding plan for me would look like:
Play:
-1 Trickbind
-3 Spell Snare
+2 BEB
+2 Relic

Draw:
-4 Daze
-1 Trickbind
+3 BEB
+2 Relic

Some builds run Solitary Confiment, a couple of Echoing Truths should come handy here.
Also i thought about siding out one Trinket Mage too, but considering their two drops and more importantly their COTV and Moxen, i have the feeling that i need the maximum number of EE.

BTW: If someone is interested in testing matchups, drop a PM - i really want to squeeze the last bit out of this. :eyebrow:

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I would side out Standstills against that loam, they can just discard lands and cycle them all day long. So i would side like this:

Out:
-4x Standstill
-2x EE
-4x Daze

In:
2x Echoing Truth
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Pithing Needle

Im not sure is this correct plan, but im quite convidence that standstills should take out in any case. Counterbalance is needed in because if you get C/B working, you can counter that loam always and burning wish. Just thinked that needle can be usefull if you see Seismic Assault.

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Originally Posted by Atog

I would side out Standstills against that loam, they can just discard lands and cycle them all day long. So i would side like this:

Out:
-4x Standstill
-2x EE
-4x Daze

In:
2x Echoing Truth
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Pithing Needle

Im not sure is this correct plan, but im quite convidence that standstills should take out in any case. Counterbalance is needed in because if you get C/B working, you can counter that loam always and burning wish. Just thinked that needle can be usefull if you see Seismic Assault.

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You definately don't want to take out Engineered Explosives unless you are sure they don't have Chalice of the Void.

I don't think Standstill is so bad against them, as long as you have a few threats down. They don't have too many answers to Naught so its obviously a beating with it, but a Factory and a Mage should get you some mileage, too. During the Source tourney, Rood did -1 Naught, -1 Standstill, -2 Daze for +2 BEB, +2 Crypt. Seems pretty solid to me.

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Originally Posted by bocci

You definately don't want to take out Engineered Explosives unless you are sure they don't have Chalice of the Void.

I don't think Standstill is so bad against them, as long as you have a few threats down. During the Source tourney, Rood did -1 Naught, -1 Standstill, -2 Daze for +2 BEB, +2 Crypt. Seems pretty solid to me.

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Ah, i forget that chalice. You are right EE remains..

Thanks for the quick answers.

Why do people want to cut the Standstills so often? Turn two Standstill is one of the 'three' broken openers this deck does.

Roods plan looks good concerning the Dazes (even on the play), but i cant decide between two of these three cards (Nought, Standstill, Trickbind).
Not that one card is that important.

I thought about adding Submerge to the board, but there seems to be not enough room both in the board and in a boarding scenario. Take this matchup for instance, we can side up to three BEBs, Relic/ Tormods and even Truth against Confiment if they run it. Thats usually 2-6 slots + the Truths in some cases. i dont see to board additional cards. In the TA its similar..

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Originally Posted by deadlock

Why do people want to cut the Standstills so often? Turn two Standstill is one of the 'three' broken openers this deck does.

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Standstill is a very situational play. There are a lot of matchups where having Standstill in the opening hand is a break even event for you. Against those decks Standstill becomes an easy sideout for an option that is clearly superior in the matchup.

A lot of players also prefer to hold Standstill until they're sure they know what the opponent is playing. So the broken opener isn't really that unless you're willing to take a risk and lay it out semi-blind.

I wasnt implying that i put it down blindly, but the matchups were it isnt good are quite few, namely Ichorid, Landstill and the mirrormatch.
Its feasible to side out a single copy in some other matchups, i use the follwing system to determine this:

Against decks that can potentially create a stronger hand than you, even if they have to break the Still at the some point.
For example a FTDD build that builds a hand with like 3-4 Chants/ Duress.
In this case it seems risky to put the Still down on turn two with no threat (in this case CB, Mishras, Trinket).
So you need some sort of threat before you can put it down to prevent this.

Another example was my round three enemy today playing Ugr Dreadstill, he didnt know what i was playing and put down a Standstill on turn two. We drawed for a while before he gets a factory online.
After a couple rounds of beats i breaked the Still at the end of his turn with a Brainstorm. (he had to discard 4 cards).
In my turn i startet to deploy threats in form of 2 CB both countered, but eating nearly his whole hand in the process. I managed to put down a Top and answered his last card - a Tarmo with an Explosives before dropping a Nought, which he couldnt answer..

To summarize i think i got a quite good grip on the card, so discussing sideboard choices and strategys would be more productive.

Last night I tested about 15 games in total between pre and post board Goblins vs. Dreadstill. I played Goblins, my friend played UR Dreadstill, my friend played a version with Ponder, which helped him a lot resulting in like one unkeepable hand all night and a lot of quick Noughts. Ponder is amazing for DS, I would advise running that as a 4-of. If you are wondering about just how good Ponder is in Legacy I would advise you to read this: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...p_4_Split.html.
If anyone is interested this is how the games against Vial Goblins (GO) play out:

Preboard; a couple of things can happen.
GO drops Vial/Lackey and will likely proceed the game if left unanwsered.
GO drops Vial/Lackey but DS will answer it, then proceed to win the game with a quick Nought or Stifles and Wastes for GO lands.
DS drops a quick Nought and protects it to victory.
DS fails to draw into Nought, GO plays a ton red men and stomp DS.

As you can see, two major factors determine the outcome of the game those are Vial/Lackey for GO and Stifle and to lesser extent Dreadnought for DS. Another important factor is if GO is able to make all of it's land drops, a 2 fetchland hand + Piledriver + some more expensive spells is horrible against DS but otherwise pretty solid against most of the decks. Also, you can allow one Piledriver to hit the board as long as you can stop anything else coming out.

Preboard we came to about 6-4 in Dreadstills favor (I'm not 100% sure).

Postboard is a whole different animal. GO is the clear favorite afterwards thanks to DS not being able to stop Krosan Grip. Krosan Grip > DS, if GO plays RB or Mono R you should be able to take the match but with Krosan Grip you are in for a tough fight. We ended up going 4-1 or something in GO favor postboard. Pyroclasm didn't help all that much for DS, I think you could easily cut it. I do think some EE's would help to stop Vial. Needle was horrible for DS, it helped once stopping a Vial but GO didn't need Vial that game and even had Tin Street to nuke the Needle.

Goyfs would help DS, especially postboard, where DS just can not rely on Dreadnought. UR just might want to run a Tropical in the mainboard and then side in some Goyfs. Trop mainboard would also allow you to set EE to 3 which could be relevant sometimes.
Pyroclasm was pretty useless, as Goblins can easily recover from it thanks to Siege Gang and Ringleader.

So the conclusion in terms of who is the favorite is that I think GO is the favorite if it can bring in Krosan Grip. If it doesn't splash G, DS is the definite favorite.

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Originally Posted by Mantis

Last night I tested about 15 games in total between pre and post board Goblins vs. Dreadstill. I played Goblins, my friend played UR Dreadstill, my friend played a version with Ponder, which helped him a lot resulting in like one unkeepable hand all night and a lot of quick Noughts. Ponder is amazing for DS, I would advise running that as a 4-of. If you are wondering about just how good Ponder is in Legacy I would advise you to read this: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...p_4_Split.html.
If anyone is interested this is how the games against Vial Goblins (GO) play out:

Preboard; a couple of things can happen.
GO drops Vial/Lackey and will likely proceed the game if left unanwsered.
GO drops Vial/Lackey but DS will answer it, then proceed to win the game with a quick Nought or Stifles and Wastes for GO lands.
DS drops a quick Nought and protects it to victory.
DS fails to draw into Nought, GO plays a ton red men and stomp DS.

As you can see, two major factors determine the outcome of the game those are Vial/Lackey for GO and Stifle and to lesser extent Dreadnought for DS. Another important factor is if GO is able to make all of it's land drops, a 2 fetchland hand + Piledriver + some more expensive spells is horrible against DS but otherwise pretty solid against most of the decks. Also, you can allow one Piledriver to hit the board as long as you can stop anything else coming out.

Preboard we came to about 6-4 in Dreadstills favor (I'm not 100% sure).

Postboard is a whole different animal. GO is the clear favorite afterwards thanks to DS not being able to stop Krosan Grip. Krosan Grip > DS, if GO plays RB or Mono R you should be able to take the match but with Krosan Grip you are in for a tough fight. We ended up going 4-1 or something in GO favor postboard. Pyroclasm didn't help all that much for DS, I think you could easily cut it. I do think some EE's would help to stop Vial. Needle was horrible for DS, it helped once stopping a Vial but GO didn't need Vial that game and even had Tin Street to nuke the Needle.

Goyfs would help DS, especially postboard, where DS just can not rely on Dreadnought. UR just might want to run a Tropical in the mainboard and then side in some Goyfs. Trop mainboard would also allow you to set EE to 3 which could be relevant sometimes.
Pyroclasm was pretty useless, as Goblins can easily recover from it thanks to Siege Gang and Ringleader.

So the conclusion in terms of who is the favorite is that I think GO is the favorite if it can bring in Krosan Grip. If it doesn't splash G, DS is the definite favorite.

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About those Tin Street Hooligan and Krosan grip, they both can quite easy be stopped atleast TSH. It's cop ability can be stiflet, trickbinded or you simply just counter it. And that grip, that is little bigger problem, but if you can cut Goblin player to fetch taiga or wasteland them and then playing that nought you will be safe for a moment. Maybe that long you win by nought. Yet still, if you managed to ged C/B and left Trinket mage on top of your library on YOUR OWN TURN when opponent has no mana to cast grip.

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Originally Posted by Atog

About those Tin Street Hooligan and Krosan grip, they both can quite easy be stopped atleast TSH. It's cop ability can be stiflet, trickbinded or you simply just counter it. And that grip, that is little bigger problem, but if you can cut Goblin player to fetch taiga or wasteland them and then playing that nought you will be safe for a moment. Maybe that long you win by nought. Yet still, if you managed to ged C/B and left Trinket mage on top of your library on YOUR OWN TURN when opponent has no mana to cast grip.

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He boarded out his Counterbalance. I've always thought it was stupid to leave Counterbalance in against GO, but after tonight I'm not 100% sure that statement holds truth. I had the feeling that CB was pretty good at protecting Dreadnought especially from Weirding and TSH. My friend rarely had Trinket Mage on top when he set up Counterbalance as he only played 2.

Tin Street Hooligan isn't really that big of problem for DS I know, that's why DS is favored pre board where GO only has Weirdings and TSH to deal with Dreadnought.

The best advice I can give any DS player is to play Ponder. Having Ponder + Brainstorm/Fetch is just gravy. I am on the point where I just want to drop Goblins so I can play 4 Ponder and 4 Brainstorm.

The bigger question is, what did you cut for Ponder? I asume a combination of land and business, which is both unaceptable.
The mainboard of Ur is perfectly fine, i wouldnt cut anything especially for such a clumsy card like ponder.

Again about Goblins, there games were you just get blown out. For example if they hold two Lackeys or something like this, especially on the draw - were Daze cant be fully utilized.
I made my peace with this matchup and just keep practicing.
Also i disagree with Pyroclasm being 'bad' (it might be uneeded / doesnt improve the matchup by a large margin).
It answers the lackey even on the draw and comes handy if they break a Still with a huge hand.

Concerning CB in this matchup, of course setting up a CB and then use it to protect your Nought is nice, but in my expierence there is no time for this.
Also please tell me what do you want to side out if the Balances being kept.

Needle is good, but probaly cut be cut to a one-of like Rood suggested - in my meta there is a bunch of Affinity and maybe even Painter decks so it would need a good replacement. I am thinking about the 4th Counterbalance in the board to get it more reliable against ANT.