[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

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Originally Posted by benofzongo

So I ran a punishing fire nic fit list at a legacy tournament this past weekend, to a 2-3 record...but my game W-L was 7-6...and but for one (well, I guess 2) noob mistakes, I would have made top 8, and I had a blast with the deck, so it was successful in my book.
I ran Tao's primer list (thanks for that, btw), except my board was:

4 Red elemental blast
4 Leyline of the void
3 Chalice of the void
2 Golgari charm
2 Slaughter games



Match 1: DnT
I convinced my friend Chris to come to his first ever legacy tourney, and of course we get paired up. I basically machine-gunned his board with punishing fire for 2 games, and it was over. Sad face for him :(. 2-0.

Match 2: Mono Red Painter.
Game 1 he draws a billion lands and plays only a blood moon before I kill him. So I don't know whether he's playing MUD or painter. I should have guessed painter based on his lands, but my noob-rustiness means I waffle and don't board for game 2. Game 2 he blood moons again, and by a twist of fate my deck gives me all nonbasics. I'm still in it if I can find a forest off the top, but he gets me. Game 3 we battle back and forth a bit, until he flips the grindstone blindly off the top. GG. 1-2. overall 3-2.

Match 3: SnT
Game 1 is -literally- the most epic game of magic I have ever played. We battle back and forth a bit, with me stripping out his hand, but he rebuilds. Then he slams the show and tell: my board is top, perncious deed, and 6 lands. He drops emrakul and passes. I GSZ for an eternal witness to grab liliana back out of my yard and pass. He swings, and I sack 3 lands, the witness, and the top, but I stack in a look at my top 3 before the trigger, leaving me with 3 lands. There is a second liliana in the top three and I think "what are the chances I will need that?" but stack her on top anyways. He passes back. I draw the seocnd liliana and play the first, making him sac emrakul. I pass. He slams show and tell and a second emrakul and passes. I slam a second liliana. A few turns later he scoops up his cards.
Game 2 he puts me away after a protracted fight. Game 3 we are dueling, and he has a full hand, and I slaughter games. I have to choose SnT or Sneak attack (or emrakul). I pick SnT. He has the other 2 and I lose. In hindsight, this was a very poor choice, but I guess that's how you learn. 1-2, overall 4-4.

Match 4: Shardless BUG
This is supposed to be a toss-up for Nic Fit, but in my experience it is a blowout (probably due to variance secondary to limited experience): Nic Fit just doesn't care about any of the cards this deck plays, so they can get all the CA they want. Game 2 was good I guess: he eventually landed a bitterblossom and gilded draked my thragtusk. I perncious deed his token and kill him with the drake. 2-0, overall 6-4

Match 5: Lands
I still really am shaky in this matchup, psychologically: I just don't know what my lines of play should be, when I should be on defense vs. offense. Game one he does the annoying lands thing. Game 2 I slaughter games out his P-fires and loams and kill him with Thrun. game three I mull to 5, but start with a leyline in play. I get a thrun down and have an abrupt decay in hand. His only permanent is exploration while he looks for a loam. Now, my noob error here costs me the game, the match, and a top 8 berth (my opponent top 8'ed instead): I'm thinking...this decay isn't doing anything for me, so I point it at his exploration. Well, next turn off the top he gets ensnaring bridge. He then Krosan grips my leyline and does the land shimy with ghost quarter. 1-2, overall 7-6.

I actually never fetched the badlands or the taiga, and was wondering if those could be replaced with basics (which I was often hoping for more of). My gut sense is probably not, but just thought I'd mention it. I think I will take my SB back more towards the generally accepted version, since surgicals have broader applicability.
My question to the group is regarding plans against Lands and Painter. I feel like I know what I did wrong against SnT, but not for those two.

Thanks,
Ben

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Emrkaul is always the correct blind Slaughter. Slaughter Games (or comparable card) goes after the monsters. Spot-discard goes after the enablers (Show and Sneak).

Imperial Painter is a coin toss. Pernicious Deed is insanely good against them, and the fact that we play 7+ basics and routinely get multiples out via Explorer/Tribe-Elder/etc is really solid. Sometimes we don't draw Deed, and sometimes we get all dual-land hands. It happens. It's mostly draw-dependent, to be honest. Slaughtering away their Painter's Servants is big game.

I don't think anyone in the thread has said that Shardless is a coin toss. Shardless is a bye as far as Nic Fit of any color combination is concerned. I mean, they can obviously nut-draw and then that's that, but the same can be true for any deck -- such is Magic.

As for Lands....I think I would Slaughter away their Loams first and foremost, then go for the Punishing Fires from there. It's worth noting that if they're Dark Lands, that can be a huge problem -- Nic Fit in general doesn't have a lot of ways to get rid of Merit Lage, although Liliana is huge. Generally speaking against Lands you want to ramp as aggressively as you can to dodge their mana denial plan, drop a fatty or two, and try to kill them as quickly as possible. Quick Lilianas turn into half-armageddons vs them, which is sweet -- Deed wraths away their Explorations and such, Decay and other spot takes out Ensnaring Bridge in lieu of a Deed....Slaughter away Loam and PFire to hit their engines as much as possible.

Hope that helps.

Played Thune Pod tonight, the deck felt really really underpowered to me. I never really felt like I had a plan to work towards. Instead the deck was just trying to value-play people out of the game, which definitely doesn't feel good enough. The deck's power plays just never felt impactful enough, unless I was already ahead, and Archangel herself was never good and frequently just got Swordsed for no value. I was DEFINITELY playing poorly, so that didn't help. Perhaps it can be written up to variance and bad play over 3 rounds but the deck left a bad taste in my mouth, I'm sorry to say, because it looked really sweet on paper. I know Kevin's had success with it, but I'm personally gonna write that up to him being a master, and stick with Scapewish.

Trying to be constructive about the deck, the main addressable issue I found was not being able to interact with my opponent at all, and particularly being unable to interact with Batterskull, which I was basically never able to deal with. While Pod may be a fine engine card, I don't think the versatility (or power, or both) of answers is there yet to make it really work as well as some other variants' engines. I don't know if that means more Zeniths to complement it, more redundancy in effects, a maindeck guy like Wickerbough Elder, or what. The potential is probably there, and I hope it gets found. I will say that playing Sigarda was awesome, and Recurring Nightmare + Persist dudes, while a little fragile, is definitely good.

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Originally Posted by MrIggins

Played Thune Pod tonight, the deck felt really really underpowered to me. I never really felt like I had a plan to work towards. Instead the deck was just trying to value-play people out of the game, which definitely doesn't feel good enough. The deck's power plays just never felt impactful enough, unless I was already ahead, and Archangel herself was never good and frequently just got Swordsed for no value. I was DEFINITELY playing poorly, so that didn't help. Perhaps it can be written up to variance and bad play over 3 rounds but the deck left a bad taste in my mouth, I'm sorry to say, because it looked really sweet on paper. I know Kevin's had success with it, but I'm personally gonna write that up to him being a master, and stick with Scapewish.

Trying to be constructive about the deck, the main addressable issue I found was not being able to interact with my opponent at all, and particularly being unable to interact with Batterskull, which I was basically never able to deal with. While Pod may be a fine engine card, I don't think the versatility (or power, or both) of answers is there yet to make it really work as well as some other variants' engines. I don't know if that means more Zeniths to complement it, more redundancy in effects, a maindeck guy like Wickerbough Elder, or what. The potential is probably there, and I hope it gets found. I will say that playing Sigarda was awesome, and Recurring Nightmare + Persist dudes, while a little fragile, is definitely good.

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What were your matchups, out of curiosity? I'm guessing there was a Blade deck of some kind, since you mention Swords and Batterskull specifically.

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Went 3-1 at my local with Thune last night -- beating Reanimator, Burn, and RUG; losing to Goblins. Reanimator was a format neophyte who was borrowing a deck -- I never, ever in a million years should have won game 1, but he didn't know what Birthing Pod does in legacy, so he allowed it to resolve (he had an onboard [turn 2] Griselbrand and could have drawn a million cards). I combo'd off shortly thereafter. Game two I won legitimately without him ever getting a fatty in play, between Nevermore, Cranial, and Ooze. Burn was closer than I would like -- game one I didn't draw anything that gained life and he had Price + Fireblast for exact the turn before I was going to stabilize. Game three I was mana screwed hard, but he had a slow draw with double Sulfuric Vortex. I Deeded away the first one, then hit the second with Harmonic Sliver. There were two turns where I was actually just dead on board to basically anything (he drew a land and then a Grim Lavamancer), but I skated by through the skin of my teeth and made Thrag->Resto/Thrag happen. RUG was, as always, a joke. Game two I had a turn two Sigarda which actually resolved. You can guess how that went. Goblins was a simple case of my deck just failing to play Magic -- game one he vomited out double Warchief + Chieftain + MWM + Piledriver in rapid succession, and I died with Pernicious Deed the top card of my deck after getting smacked for 16 in one turn. Game two I mulled and he had a slower, Port-based hand. I wrathed him once, but he rebuilt into Warchief/Warchief/Mad Auntie and nugged me for exactsies through a Sigarda.

The increased prevalence of Goblins in the metagame is making my Moat instincts itch. I always feel like Goblins is a harder matchup than it really should be -- it's often wildly in our favor, but it seems like ~1/3 of the time they just nut out and kick us right in the nuts before we can say anything about it.

Things I noticed:

Only used Emissary once, would've been a push as to whether it was better as Ranger or not.
Voice was still terrible. I think I've found my Necroplasm slot.
The 3-drop core of Varolz/Spike/Finks was still one of the biggest reasons to play the deck.
Never used Batterskull (or SFM), or Recurring Nightmare. Sun Titan was hideously overkill the one time he saw play. This is a function of my matchups.
I still actively hate Ooze as a card. Can't deny that it was nice having the Reanimator hate, though.

All I've got for now.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

What were your matchups, out of curiosity? I'm guessing there was a Blade deck of some kind, since you mention Swords and Batterskull specifically.

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Junk with Stoneforge, Mom, Knight, Bob, Deathrite, Lingering Souls, then BW with Bob, Stoneforge, Mom, Deathrite, and discard, and then Jund.
Bricked on hitting a Deed or any sort of action to go with my Archangel for a long time against Junk game 1 while I died to Deathrite and Batterskull, did the thing with Recurring Nightmare and Redcap game 2, got Hymned out of the game in game 3.
Drew against BW because he was playing very slowly and it took me forever to kill him game 2. Game 1 I turn 3 a Sigarda off of Tower+Explorer and he gets his 4th and 5th basics (which I was definitely not expecting) and plays Sword of Feast and Famine, equip it to his Bob, attack, trigger, cast Batterskull. The deed in my hand was too slow. Game 2 I eventually grind him out with Finks and Pod into Resto into Sigarda. Game 3 we end up in turns while I have an Archangel in play and he has a Batterskull, he doesn't have the removal for the Angel so I'm drawing live to go off but it doesn't get there.
Jund was good when they didn't have discard and bad when they did, I will note that Deathrite and Ooze were very problematic in these games, but Batterskull was very good in the matchup.

I know some of these are bad beats (that BW game when turn 3 Sigarda didn't do anything) and the bricking on draw steps (with a Top in play, no less) will happen with any build. I'm probably writing off the deck too early.

I'm feeling much more awake and able to put things into words than last night so here are some other notes I have about the deck:
-Voice, as you said, was quite bad.
-Varolz never really did anything but that's probably a function of every opponent having Deathrite Shaman and/or Ooze.
-I wanted more 2-drops to pod into the business 3s, but this is from a small sample size and I don't know if that would be a consistent problem. If you're cutting Voice for a 3-drop that you can't Zenith for (Necroplasm), that may make this more of an issue.
-I distinctly remember wanting to Zenith up a 4-drop to Pod into an Archangel and being unable to.
-Sigarda continues to be awesome.
-The deck felt pretty weak to discard because your cards seem less powerful on an individual level. Nightmare doesn't do anything without creatures, Archangel is only okay without its support, Pod similarly needs guys, etc. Granted when the synergy gets going you are hard to stop, but if they disrupt it, you can end up not doing much.
-The deck really didn't feel proactive enough, which is my biggest issue. In these games I never really felt like I had clear things to play towards, and I certainly didn't feel like I was putting opponents under pressure. I don't know what can be done about this or if it was just the draws I had or what.

@Arianrhod

I tried Angel-Fit and loved it, sadly my meta has plenty of combo decks such as belcher and what not. Seems like the sb plans against such combo is too slow unless I actively mulligan for a hand with therapy (it also does not mean I will definitely hit the crucial pieces). Any plans against such decks for Angel-Fit? I am very used to having burning wish to find answers against them if they go for the empty the warrens route or leave in play a belcher to be activated the next turn.

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Originally Posted by fireiced

@Arianrhod

I tried Angel-Fit and loved it, sadly my meta has plenty of combo decks such as belcher and what not. Seems like the sb plans against such combo is too slow unless I actively mulligan for a hand with therapy (it also does not mean I will definitely hit the crucial pieces). Any plans against such decks for Angel-Fit? I am very used to having burning wish to find answers against them if they go for the empty the warrens route or leave in play a belcher to be activated the next turn.

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Sometimes luck. Sometimes mull to your hate. I played and beat Belcher twice at SCG Mpls (round 3 and 8) with Angel/Feeder Fit.

My report: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post742084 (if you hadn't see it)

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Originally Posted by MrIggins

-I distinctly remember wanting to Zenith up a 4-drop to Pod into an Archangel and being unable to.

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I remember one of our local nic fitters used spike weaver in his list. Doesn't seem bad.
Wickerbough Elder is also a decent option at times.

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Originally Posted by jbone2016

Sometimes luck. Sometimes mull to your hate. I played and beat Belcher twice at SCG Mpls (round 3 and 8) with Angel/Feeder Fit.

My report: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post742084 (if you hadn't see it)

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Pretty much this. You can't be afraid to mull for business against combo decks, even though you sometimes need to throw away perfectly reasonable hands -- they aren't reasonable in the world of what your opponent is doing. And sometimes you do just need to get lucky. We're bringing a knife to a gun fight in the combo matchup.

Pod and Zenith function in much the same way for Thune as Wish does in Scape.

vs Empty you have:

Pod -> Necroplasm (assuming that he does check out and ends up in the list)
Pod -> Orzhov Pontiff
Pod -> Rector -> Deed (assuming sac outlet, or if you can soak 1 hit to then sac to pod)
[Deed]

vs in-play Belcher:

Pod / Zenith -> Harmonic Sliver

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Noted@Sam -- I'll provide some thoughts on this stuff either later tonight or Friday morning sometime.....I'm super busy right now ._.

Ive taken some time to absorb the deck and started testing pretty heavily since im helping a friend build a version of this deck. I would like some thoughts on where the list is currently at:

Lands 22
3 grove of the burnwillows
3 verdant catacombs
3 wooded foothills
3 swamp
2 forest
2 bayou
1 badlands
1 mountain
1 phyrexian tower
1 kessig wolf run
1 thespian stage
1 dark depths

Creatures 14
4 veteran explorer
2 abyssal persecutor
1 scavenging ooze
1 eternal witness
1 huntmaster of the fells
1 thrun, the last troll
1 grave titan
1 primeval titan
1 wurmcoil engine
1 broodmate dragon

PW 3
2 liliana of the veil
1 garruk primal hunter

Artifacts/enchants 6
3 SDT
3 pernicious deed

Sorceries 8
4 GSZ
4 cabal therapy

Instants 7
3 punishing fire
2 abrupt decay
2 crop rotation

Currently 60 cards with more focus on 'titans' and lands. The thespian depths combo really hasnt come up that often tbh but its in for now until I get a bead on it. The persecutors have been insane especially with crop rotation tutoring for tower or finding kessig wolf run (outraced a progenitus today with it). The main things im not sure about atm are thrun, eternal witness, and the dark depths combo. The first two because they always feel underwhelming and the latter because its not often necessary although I dont see why having the option is really a bad thing. The deck can easily start dropping bombs as early as turn 2 onward and I would like to fit something a little nastier in at the 3-5cc slots, just not sure what. Hymns have also come to mind. Any ideas or input?

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

Currently 60 cards with more focus on 'titans' and lands. The thespian depths combo really hasnt come up that often tbh but its in for now until I get a bead on it. The persecutors have been insane especially with crop rotation tutoring for tower or finding kessig wolf run (outraced a progenitus today with it). The main things im not sure about atm are thrun, eternal witness, and the dark depths combo. The first two because they always feel underwhelming and the latter because its not often necessary although I dont see why having the option is really a bad thing. The deck can easily start dropping bombs as early as turn 2 onward and I would like to fit something a little nastier in at the 3-5cc slots, just not sure what. Hymns have also come to mind. Any ideas or input?

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I had a one of Vraska in my list at times. Isn't horrible.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

Ive taken some time to absorb the deck and started testing pretty heavily since im helping a friend build a version of this deck. I would like some thoughts on where the list is currently at:

Lands 22
3 grove of the burnwillows
3 verdant catacombs
3 wooded foothills
3 swamp
2 forest
2 bayou
1 badlands
1 mountain
1 phyrexian tower
1 kessig wolf run
1 thespian stage
1 dark depths

Creatures 14
4 veteran explorer
2 abyssal persecutor
1 scavenging ooze
1 eternal witness
1 huntmaster of the fells
1 thrun, the last troll
1 grave titan
1 primeval titan
1 wurmcoil engine
1 broodmate dragon

PW 3
2 liliana of the veil
1 garruk primal hunter

Artifacts/enchants 6
3 SDT
3 pernicious deed

Sorceries 8
4 GSZ
4 cabal therapy

Instants 7
3 punishing fire
2 abrupt decay
2 crop rotation

Currently 60 cards with more focus on 'titans' and lands. The thespian depths combo really hasnt come up that often tbh but its in for now until I get a bead on it. The persecutors have been insane especially with crop rotation tutoring for tower or finding kessig wolf run (outraced a progenitus today with it). The main things im not sure about atm are thrun, eternal witness, and the dark depths combo. The first two because they always feel underwhelming and the latter because its not often necessary although I dont see why having the option is really a bad thing. The deck can easily start dropping bombs as early as turn 2 onward and I would like to fit something a little nastier in at the 3-5cc slots, just not sure what. Hymns have also come to mind. Any ideas or input?

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I'm still testing 1 Kalonian Hydra... it kills in 2 turns, few thing are nastier than that for 5 mana...

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Voice was still terrible

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Yay I get to trade my voice :)

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Here's my current list:

//Creatures
1 Sylvan Ranger
1 Academy Rector
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Deathrite Shaman - Maindeckable graveyard hate and alternate ramp source
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sun Titan
1 Thragtusk
1 Restoration Angel
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Spike Feeder
1 Necroplasm

//Instants and Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith - In place of a top because I like to search for specific things

//Lands
1 Bayou
5 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Windswept Heath

//Artifacts & Enchantments
1 Faith's Fetters - Great at stalling/locking down annoying permanents
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Birthing Pod
2 Sensei's Divining Top

//Sideboard:
SB: 1 Nether Void
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor - This gives me lots of options including humility vs sneak & show and choke vs. blue
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers

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In arianrhod's article, he mentioned that we couldn't go infinite with melira + redcap/finks + viscera seer. That made me think...what if we could?

We already have the finks, redcap, and pods, and viscera seer could be a sac outlet for explorer too. Thoughts?

I like pod in nic fit, but that combo barely makes it in modern... it shouldnt have any chance on legacy. Also, putting too many 1-of you will find yourself with plenty of marginal use creatures in many matches.

Yesterday I play this list with some friends... i won 4-1 against deathblade, I lost 3-0 against goblins, 2-2 against Patriot... all this games without SB.

Pod Rock

Creatures [19]
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Restoration Angel
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Heons
1 Wurmcoil Engine/ Grave Titan


Engine [8]
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Birthing Pod
1 Recurring Nightmare

Equipments [1]
1 Batterskull

Removals [7]
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Discard [4]
4 Cabal Therapy

Lands [22]
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

SB [15]
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

I finally cut off Dryad arbor... think about this... any hand 1 lander with gsz should be an instant mull, so you should keep any hand with gsz and two lands, in this case i rather fetch for veteran explorer than dryad arbor. MVPs metamorph and resto angel are very useful to get plenty of value from your cards. Having kitchen finks in play with pod means to draw free resto angels.

Another card i took out was strangleroot geist.Yes, it's could to pod twice but you only get a 3/2 haste which his cost isnt too easy to play on T2, so I replace it with SFM and it has been great. You can put BSkull on play and then pod the sfm away...you can copy bskull with metamorph and get it back anytime you want to copy something else.

Thrun was a dificult cut, but it has the same function as sigarda and i would never trade thrun with pod for thragtusk or sigarda, so I replace it with Murderous Redcap which has been nice to keep some board control, especially against DRS

Ugh, that BUG Pod list I was working on is way worse than I thought. Tested it a lot over the last week and was super disappointed in everything from the draws to the manabase.

3/10 would not play again.

The white is still intriguing due to Academy Rector, but Pod still has some inherent weaknesses to worry about.

Caleb, have you tried the Scapeshift version yet?

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Originally Posted by CalebD

Ugh, that BUG Pod list I was working on is way worse than I thought. Tested it a lot over the last week and was super disappointed in everything from the draws to the manabase.

3/10 would not play again.

The white is still intriguing due to Academy Rector, but Pod still has some inherent weaknesses to worry about.

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Rector gets recurring nightmare or primeval bounty which puts you waaaay ahead. Except vs show and tell :P

I played the Scape version in an Open. Didn't like it at all.

Would rather just Grave Titan people.

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Originally Posted by CalebD

I played the Scape version in an Open. Didn't like it at all.

Would rather just Grave Titan people.

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Why not just play Natural Order?

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Originally Posted by Blastoderm

Why not just play Natural Order?

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I use Natural Order in SB and it has been good. First game i need graveyard recursion and artifacts (pod bskull) to win the game. Game 2 i took some of this things expecting people will put sb against it and play NO combo on g2/3

Can someone post the core of Rector? I want to upgrade my NicFit list and that seems like a good place to go.
Thanks!