[Deck] 12 Post

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

In other news, I have been considering Dawnstrider in the sb of U/g, possibly in conjunction with Ensnaring bridge main. Currently I am running Moment's peace, and while the combat trick is nice, you often pass with mana up, and don't use all/most of that mana eot, which frontloads all your hate onto the pivotal turn, where you can't always cast all your spells. Specifically, a Moment's Peace, Moment's Peace Flashback, Crop rotation, possibly warping wail is an enormous GGGC4 mana, with which you probably could win the game outright.

Ensnaring bridge and moment's peace seem to fight each other somewhat. Ensnaring bridge + Dawnstrider seems much stronger, pitching your bricks, and possibly shuffling key cards back or neutralizing Deathrites.

Looking for thoughts. I'll be testing extensively this week in anticipation of Worcester.

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Depends on what match ups you want these cards for. If you want Dawnstrider and bridge for eldrazi then Dawnstrider gives them a warping wail target, so it's likely garbage there. Bridge is obviously good enough since you can likely halt the assume long enough to actually get online with something relevant. Moments peace usually being a card that casts above a chalice likely for 1 is good. If they don't have chalice at 1 and you have enough instants to cast then holding up mana isn't particularly terrible. It can mostly shut down nuts draws where your opponent just goes mimic into thoughtknot, into smasher. You can cast peace in response to thought-knot to stop the mimic coming for 4 and then flashback causing them to waste a huge attack with smasher and mimic. At the very least it may cause them to try and play more conservative and give you a few turns to outplay them, which you can likely do given your experience and skill level in comparison to most people who would still be running eldrazi aggro.

I'm very interested to hear about some of your testing with new emrakul. Especially costing 4 mana.

http://magicjudge.tumblr.com/post/14...phalia-academy

Now THIS is a card we can use: a land that allows us to discard to the top of our library. It's a great foil to Hymn, Liliana, Therapy, etc. The best part is that you choose for each individual card, so if a T2 Hymn hits a Post and something you don't need, you can bin one and put the Post on top.


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Originally Posted by MechTactical

Can u give us a sneak preview on this new emrakul2.0 build? Are u planning on running more than one emrakul2?? Need to know how many 2 buy:smile:

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Tragically any suggestion I gave atm would be the pre-alpha version of the future deck. Right now all of my efforts are focused on SCG Worcester, and then the Wyrmwood open (Both big Mass events), which are both pre-Emratwo.

After SCG though, I will start giving serious playtest time in.

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Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube

http://magicjudge.tumblr.com/post/14...phalia-academy

Now THIS is a card we can use: a land that allows us to discard to the top of our library. It's a great foil to Hymn, Liliana, Therapy, etc. The best part is that you choose for each individual card, so if a T2 Hymn hits a Post and something you don't need, you can bin one and put the Post on top.


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It is an interesting card for sure. I am not sure if I will be running it. Seems more akin to the non-blue variants, where hand disruption can be brutal. This definitely improves the storm/reanimator matchup even further, since you no longer have to worry about only floating 1 silver bullet ontop of library, and you can still retrieve it with top.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

It is an interesting card for sure. I am not sure if I will be running it. Seems more akin to the non-blue variants, where hand disruption can be brutal. This definitely improves the storm/reanimator matchup even further, since you no longer have to worry about only floating 1 silver bullet ontop of library, and you can still retrieve it with top.

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Hadn't thought about that. I was mostly thinking it might be useful to Crop for in response to an early Hymn, particularly with hands of 3-5 cards that need to protect their lands in hand to maintain sequencing.


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Nephalia Academy seems like it could be a great one-of utility land in the sideboard against discard decks. I think I'll definitely test it out in my mono-green list.

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Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube

Hadn't thought about that. I was mostly thinking it might be useful to Crop for in response to an early Hymn, particularly with hands of 3-5 cards that need to protect their lands in hand to maintain sequencing.


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Even in the UG build I could see this being useful. My friend on Shardless BUG has luck to insane levels when he hymns me. Saving a post from the yard would be pretty useful. It also means I could leave Emrakul in my hand in some situations while brainstorming 2 on top and not having to worry about the shuffle losing all my cards.

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Originally Posted by cwcomposer

Nephalia Academy seems like it could be a great one-of utility land in the sideboard against discard decks. I think I'll definitely test it out in my mono-green list.

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I have been playing mono green 11post on mtgo and its been quite entertaining. What is your current list?

I will probably at least test Nephalia Academy, utility lands are always interesting for my Knight&Gitrog build. I'm not completely sold, right now i'm playing Volrath's Stronghold and Sea Gate Wreckage, and if i weren't that greedy i would probably only play one of them. If i play Academy, it has probably to replace one of these lands, and it's unclear if it's better. Or i could try to put lands in the sideboard again, but all the sideboard slots are valuable.

Btw, i'm trying Dawnstrider in my Sideboard too. Did this already once before, didn't do what i wanted then, but i wasn't playing Bridge at the time. Don't know if it's good yet, but in theory it seems decent against Eldrazi, Infect, Elves and Merfolk - basically any aggressive deck without a lot of removal. When i tried it first i needed help against Delver, and although it might be playable there, it dies to removal too much to make a huge impact. But lately my results against Delver have been good anyway.

I still think my build is really good, just dismissing it as "fun, but not competitive" is almost certainly wrong, my winrate remains slightly under 70%. It's just very different from other 12post decks, and like any toolbox deck it needs practice to find the best lines in every situation.

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Originally Posted by Leshrac82

I will probably at least test Nephalia Academy, utility lands are always interesting for my Knight&Gitrog build. I'm not completely sold, right now i'm playing Volrath's Stronghold and Sea Gate Wreckage, and if i weren't that greedy i would probably only play one of them. If i play Academy, it has probably to replace one of these lands, and it's unclear if it's better. Or i could try to put lands in the sideboard again, but all the sideboard slots are valuable.

Btw, i'm trying Dawnstrider in my Sideboard too. Did this already once before, didn't do what i wanted then, but i wasn't playing Bridge at the time. Don't know if it's good yet, but in theory it seems decent against Eldrazi, Infect, Elves and Merfolk - basically any aggressive deck without a lot of removal. When i tried it first i needed help against Delver, and although it might be playable there, it dies to removal too much to make a huge impact. But lately my results against Delver have been good anyway.

I still think my build is really good, just dismissing it as "fun, but not competitive" is almost certainly wrong, my winrate remains slightly under 70%. It's just very different from other 12post decks, and like any toolbox deck it needs practice to find the best lines in every situation.

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Someone else bite already!

This deck, previously posted by Leshrac is fantastic if you're tired of the 1-dimensional Eldrazi Post. It's a hybrid of Maverick, Nic Fit, Lands, 12 Post, and crushes most importantly, most of the metagame. I can testify in addition too Leshrac, the deck is very good, very hard to play, but seemingly always has an answer. It's a real blast to play, reminds you why you
play magic!

Perhaps swap Gaddock Teeg out for Neph Academy in the board? Gaddock is sometimes too slow against the matchups where it matters, and while Neph doesn't protect against TKS, it does make Liliana a little less effective and it would help a lot against Hymn. I think Neph Academy might go better with 4 SDT.




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Thx for the support finally in the thread, we already had great discussions via PM! :smile:

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Originally Posted by TTX

Perhaps swap Gaddock Teeg out for Neph Academy in the board? Gaddock is sometimes too slow against the matchups where it matters, and while Neph doesn't protect against TKS, it does make Liliana a little less effective and it would help a lot against Hymn. I think Neph Academy might go better with 4 SDT.

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Gaddock Teeg is indeed sometimes too slow. In addition, out of all my sideboard cards Teeg comes in the least, basically only against Storm and Belcher (also Miracles, but it's not that relevant there, and High Tide, but that's unwinnable either way). Against Belcher it usually shuts them out once it's down, but i can't keep a hand based on Teeg, they go off on Turn 1 too often, i need to have a way to beat that (and i often do, my results against Belcher are very good). Storm rareley goes off before Teeg comes down, but they will board in Abrupt Decays to beat hate cards, and they can usually kill it when they go off. And i don't even play any other real hate cards AD can hit, there are no Spheres in my sideboard. It goes a bit against my own advice a few pages back to cut it, but maybe even with GSZ to find it, it's just not good enough. And Academy would help a bit against Storm too. (And it's not that i really need help against Storm - i'm playing less combo hate in my board than other 12post decks, but so far i'm 21-10 in matches against Storm. The ability to kill them very fast with Marit Lage helps a lot, they often just don't get the time to deal with all my answers before they are forced to go off.)

Haven't been on here (or playing MTG in ages for the matter), so I decided it was time I played a bit on MTGO. Dusted off my trusty G/r Post deck and wrecked SHIT. Forgot how much fun that was.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy

Haven't been on here (or playing MTG in ages for the matter), so I decided it was time I played a bit on MTGO. Dusted off my trusty G/r Post deck and wrecked SHIT. Forgot how much fun that was.

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A list would tantalize my eyes, sir.

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Originally Posted by Leshrac82

I still think my build is really good, just dismissing it as "fun, but not competitive" is almost certainly wrong, my winrate remains slightly under 70%. It's just very different from other 12post decks, and like any toolbox deck it needs practice to find the best lines in every situation.

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I'm not knocking your build or ideas. I love the gitrog version, and it is extremely fun. But keep in mind, a 70% win rate will only prize/top 8 at an event with 5 rounds or less, where you can average X-1-1. At an event like a SCG open, that is 15 round, you need a win rate of 80% bare minimum to go X-2 and guarantee top 8. This extremely high standard of win rates is why I continue to tune the deck constantly. Small fractions of win rates matter enormously. Granted, at a 15 round event, a 70% win rate WILL get you top 124, which attendance-based could prize you at 10-4-1. At a lower-attendance SCG/GP where you need to top 64 to prize, you need a win rate of 77%.

When using the win-rate algorithm was prevalent on social media via planeswalker point reverse lookups, my fellow mtg peers were boasting their winrates of 60-70%. My legacy winrate at the time (~1 year from this posting) was 89.6%, by far the highest I saw posted. Granted this is from many many builds of 12post and therefore cannot be attributed to a particular build. But the point still remains, to achieve success at larger events, where variance because more evenly distributed, you need an extremely high winrate.

When I test deck ideas with teammates, we consider the 65-75% win rate the "lurking" stage of deck design. The deck needs "something" to propel it forward to the highest levels of competitive play. That factor could be many things: More knowledge/nuanced play of the deck, better meta predictions, sideboard work, mainboard adjustments, or ultimately, to wait for future cards to be printed. At any given time, our team has 15-17 decks in this category, most waiting on future printings of cards, but some with the other factors sprinkled in.

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

A list would tantalize my eyes, sir.

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Was something close to this:

Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Forest
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Taiga
3 Vesuva
3 Wooded Foothills

Creatures
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Mina and Denn, Wildborn
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Thought-Knot Seer

Spells
3 Ancient Stirrings
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Crop Rotation
3 Kozilek's Return
3 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Trinisphere
3 Expedition Map

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Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy

Was something close to this:

Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Forest
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Taiga
3 Vesuva
3 Wooded Foothills

Creatures
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Mina and Denn, Wildborn
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Thought-Knot Seer

Spells
3 Ancient Stirrings
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Crop Rotation
3 Kozilek's Return
3 Pithing Needle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Trinisphere
3 Expedition Map

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Needs more Bonfire (of the Damned)! We've been talking about brewing a G/r hybrid for ages. More importantly, what kind of sideboard cards do you run? White/Blue seem to give access to some awesome SB cards, being hate cards (white) and counterspells (blue).

no through the breachs or sneak attacks?!?

https://i.imgur.com/48Nw3vR.png

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

When using the win-rate algorithm was prevalent on social media via planeswalker point reverse lookups, my fellow mtg peers were boasting their winrates of 60-70%. My legacy winrate at the time (~1 year from this posting) was 89.6%, by far the highest I saw posted. Granted this is from many many builds of 12post and therefore cannot be attributed to a particular build. But the point still remains, to achieve success at larger events, where variance because more evenly distributed, you need an extremely high winrate.

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Grats to that winrate - assuming you have a large enough samplesize to rule out variance, that's very impressive and shows your skill as a player.

The thing is: I assume other people tried your 12post builds, because you had a lot of success with them. If your winrate was just the result of good deck design, they would have won almost as much and the deck would be banned by now. But it isn't, it's still a Tier 2 deck at best, so it probably didn't work out for them.

Now i'm offering a new deck idea, and there is no reason to assume i'm anywhere near your skill level as a player. And my winrate with the deck is great for an average player, you said it yourself: Other players were happy with 60-70% winrate, i'm at the upper end of that. And still almost nobody else seemed interested in the deck at all. That's what i don't understand.

I've picked up the last Tropical Island and trio of Show and Tells needed for the deck and thrown my lot in with you guys, starting off with one of Rock Lee's UG builds: one with 3 Shows 0 Candelabra 2 Spirit Dragons and 4 MD Trickbinds. I played against him a couple of times years ago (on the losing end, as I recall) and was always impressed by his dedication to this deck and ability to tune it.

Apparently this deck is not like others I've played, where a few minutes (or hours) of research can turn up a tuned list, with identifiable flex slots. The lists one finds are so different from one another, and what is one to make of Rock Lee's frequent posting of different decks that each conquer his weekly with extreme prejudice? It's on the edge of context collapse, though more likely it's simply wildly unrealistic to expect to understand someone's serious work on the deck in the course of an evening.

I made the effort to read the 50 most recent pages of the thread though, and I do have a few questions that I'd appreciate a more experienced 12Poster answering.

1. What happened to Warping Wail in UG? This card was the hotness at one point.
2. Ancient Stirrings mostly vanished from UG lists; I'm curious as to why.
3. 4 Trickbind seems like a lot alongside 3 MD Needle. Aside from protection against Wasteland, what is it mainly for?

I realize that there are a load of weird situations where I'll be able to Trickbind for value, and even in my first testing match against Omnitell it was a life saver, part of the key triumvirate with Krosan Grip and Primeval Titan that together made it impossible for my opponent to go off with the SnT-->Omniscience-->Emrakul plan that he happened to be on.

EDIT: As I'm fresh with the uninformed prejudices of the masses, I have an idea why this deck isn't more attractive. First, it doesn't have a lot of high level finishes, so it seems pretty fringe. Then, 4 Tropical Island is a lot, the only other 4 Trop deck is Infect which just won a GP. Further, besides the Trops, one still needs at least 3 Show and Tell, a fairly expensive card, and the other decks playing Show don't need anything like 4 Trops. A lot of lists run Candelabra of Tawnos, and what else are we going to play with using this $300-$400 card, High Tide? Please. Then there's the Tabernacle, and while some people are apparently willing to pay for it to play Lands where it's a beautiful centerpiece of the deck, here it's often relegated to the sideboard if it's played at all.

It's a major expense and commitment to a deck that has some polarized matchups, combo obviously can go wrong and Delver is not easy.