Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violence
Matchups like Delver are worsened. I think the fact that we are vulnerable to Stifle now is a big problem.
That and 3/4 Delver decks (4/5?) run Red. (Grixis, RUG, BURG, and if you really want to count it, Patriot.
Hosing BUG (assuming no counters and no Decay) is fine, but the others just kill your dude like normal while a real 3-drop would've strengthened your position much more (Wisp flipping a dude or preventing a combat, Crusader deucing on them.)
Magus is mostly neat for buffing your game against the other grindy mid-range decks; the ones that run basics.
I think when you're looking at T3-T4; Aven Mindcensor is just better. Better clock (evasion), hoses other things including GSZ, SFM, and Tutors; and doesn't let on that something bad is going to happen unless you just have a terrible poker face; flash makes your equips better, and if they kill it, you may have already garnered actual card advantage.
Before knowing it was a thing, I was brewing a "Free Wins.dec" which was Thalia/Magus and friends, but I think it's just a bit too unstable since the things it wants to be doing are incompatible. One wants ramp and basics and all that, the other wants taxing and ports and wastelands. I think RW Taxes is looking to drop these Ports and Wastes for basics and drop some of the conditional dudes. I think Mom + Magus is pretty rockin'; but I think if you're looking for "Free Wins.dec"; going the RW D&T route will leave you with an incoherent strategy; Kinda like Magus in a Delver deck.
Why spend card after card building up the incremental land advantage, just to then play a card that cancels all of that work and nullifies future cards drawn in that vein?
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I have done a ton of testing against Delver decks w/ RW and find the matchups quite favorable. RUG delver might be slightly less of a free win, but it's still a very favorable matchup overall. That's the only 3c Delver deck that I think Mono-W has a better matchup vs than R/W. BUG and Grixis are even better matchups because you have less of a chance of being tempo'd out and Revoker is a good card g1. U/R is clearly much worse for RW, but basically nobody plays it, especially w/ DTT gone.
Tonight I beat Grixis Delver w/ Magus. They all run a finite amount of removal spells. Throw out a Magus, don't treat it like a precious card, if they have a bolt you make them burn a bolt, if they don't have a bolt...they just lose. These decks feel like they run way more removal than they actually do.
Stifle is not a scary card, unless you have a mull to 6 w/ 2 fetches or something. Because you have so many stifle targets (Fetches, Vial, SFM, Recruiter, Flickerwisp, Equipment activation, Germ Token, RIP), it's actually pretty easy for them to stifle 'the wrong thing'. Safely fetch for a plains early and side out some Recruiters vs the faster Delver decks. I assumed Stifle was going to be much more of an issue for this deck when I started playing it, but it's really not. You're more scared of t1 Delver when you don't have a STP or Flickerwisp.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kirbysdl
Is that really viable in practical terms? We have Revokers, Needles, and targeted removal that can hit DRS, especially once they're Moated/Peacekept. I'd say our ability to actually land a Moat or Peacekeeper in time may be the biggest concern, though our normal 2-drop hate can hopefully slow down the game long enough to get there.
Revokers and Needles die to Reclamation Sage and their Abrupt Decays. So that isn't a long-term plan, either, especially when they go off with Glimpse. Just ask Julian, and he will tell you how viable it is. :wink:
@Violence: I agree with iatee regarding the Delver match-ups. Stifle is worse for RW than for MonoW, but it's mainly a matter of playing around it.
How was the MD Mangara? You sound like Cavern caused you major problems regarding the white/red count. Would you cut Caverns for Plateaus/fetches instead? Did the lack of additional flyers besides Flickerwisp hurt you?
@tescrin: While I agree there are some anti-synergistic nonbos within the RW build, it's a matter of testing to minimize those. I still think it's better positioned than the MonoW build right now.
Edit: Has anybody tried out Goblin Gardener or Avalance Riders to get rid of their pesky basic lands?
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tescrin
Why spend card after card building up the incremental land advantage, just to then play a card that cancels all of that work and nullifies future cards drawn in that vein?
If you go t1 Vial and use Wasteland/Ports to muck up their first few plays, vialing in a Magus lets you win even if they do happen to have plenty of lands and a better hand than you do. Against some decks (Lands, 12 Post), they're just going to win the 'future cards drawn in that vein' game. In those games Wasteland/Ports are just there to help you hold down the fort until Magus arrives.
In general Magus is a complement to Port/Wasteland/Thalia, not a substitute and the threat of Blood Moon is a taxing effect in itself. It's not the end of the world if you draw some mountain-Karakases and mountain-Ports if your opponent can't play spells anymore. Like Batterskull or Jitte, the card is dead in some situations, and wins you the game easily in others. That's why I like only 2 main + Recruiting it when necessary. It doesn't work well w/ every situation you're in and can be unnecessary or even bad for you, but hey I lost a game the other day because I couldn't hardcast my Batterskull thanks to my own Thalia. That doesn't make those cards bad in a deck together, it was just an awkward draw. Batterskull is a card with awesome power in some situations, Magus is a card with awesome power in other situations, running a deck w/ both Stoneforges and Recruiters gives you a pretty good shot at having the right one when you need it.
I didn't like Aven Mindcensor even when I played Mono-W, it always felt awkward and narrow. Especially w/ the Mono-W lists going heavy on Wingmare, I don't think you can afford any more x/1s. It's certainly good *against* R/W taxes though.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
I think they're probably too slow overall and someone playing one-two basic lands isn't *that* much of a concern...though Avalanche Riders does have the 'can be tutored' and 'great flickerwisp target' upside and it's a human...still, I feel like 4 drops need to have some really game breaking ability to be worth it and 'combines well w/ Magus' isn't enough.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
On playing around Stifle: Yeah I think I just have to do that more often. I do it with Miracles when I play Miracles, and I do it with Infect when I play Infect. I don't know why it was such a shock to me, but it was.
On fliers: I do think the deck would like a few more fliers, but I don't want to cut important pieces for them. I actually don't know what I would cut, to be honest.
On Magus playing: Yeah I am inexperienced with this version, so maybe I just need to play more and realize when I shouldn't be playing Magus, and when I need to pull the trigger and win the game. I probably misplayed a few times in that regard.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
hi there all,
i was wandering if there is consensus on boarding out parts of the "pillar equipments" ( jitte, sofa, batterskull ) on specific matchups for both the mono w as the R/W build as they seem a rock solid part in both versions
I was going over Wescoe' s sb plan for the recent gp seattle and jitte or skull always remained in the deck for his sb plan in all matchups ( jitte only left for onmitell..)
thanks
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Violence
On playing around Stifle: Yeah I think I just have to do that more often. I do it with Miracles when I play Miracles, and I do it with Infect when I play Infect. I don't know why it was such a shock to me, but it was.
On fliers: I do think the deck would like a few more fliers, but I don't want to cut important pieces for them. I actually don't know what I would cut, to be honest.
On Magus playing: Yeah I am inexperienced with this version, so maybe I just need to play more and realize when I shouldn't be playing Magus, and when I need to pull the trigger and win the game. I probably misplayed a few times in that regard.
How was Mangara in general and how do you feel about Cavern?
To me, Cavern is kind of a hot-topic. While I hate it in MonoW, i kinda like it in RW due to many humans. But I'm well aware that it increases the chance of manascrew in a not-insignificant amount.
I'm also pondering if I should switch one of my 2 Council's Judgment for 1 copy +1 Mangara in the board for Imperial tutoring goodness. But then again, I hate Mangara for being a slow, fragile PoS.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
heyoka
hi there all,
i was wandering if there is consensus on boarding out parts of the "pillar equipments" ( jitte, sofa, batterskull ) on specific matchups for both the mono w as the R/W build as they seem a rock solid part in both versions
I was going over Wescoe' s sb plan for the recent gp seattle and jitte or skull always remained in the deck for his sb plan in all matchups ( jitte only left for onmitell..)
thanks
The article is really strange actually. He says Cavern is very good against Storm's FOWs and implies that MUD plays Magus of the Moon. (He probably meant one of their similar taxing effects like Lodestone? Anyway, Magus is a good card *against* MUD.)
Wescoe's sb plan has all kinds of weird stuff going on. I think it ultimately comes down to him playing legacy maybe once a year. I think when you're a player of his caliber you can not be very familiar with the format and still go 11-4 (really 8-4), just by not making any in-game mistakes. I think he came to the conclusion that Spirit of the Labyrinth is not that great, especially in today's meta, but people who have been playing Mono-W more regularly already knew that.
Weird things in his sb plan include:
- Not siding in Pithing Needle vs D+T, Stoneblade, Maverick, Elves or MUD but siding it in vs Storm and Dredge where it's far more marginal.
- He doesn't side in Ethersworn Canonist vs Infect and sides out SoFI - which isn't as good as Jitte, but can do a good impression in a pinch.
- Siding out SoFI vs RUG Delver. Not your best equipment but still generally wins the game if you get it on a flyer or Crusader.
- He sides out all 4 STP vs Miracles, which I think is a death sentence now that Miracles is using Mentor as their main win con.
- Doesn't bring in Relic-Warder vs Sneak (the plan doesn't list it vs Affinity, but he mentions it, so there's probably some typo there.)
- Sides out Mirran Crusaders vs Reanimator, when he can attack past Griselbrand and doesn't die to most of their post-board removal, but doesn't side out Jitte, which is really not a card you want very often, and becomes even worse without your Crusaders to put it on.
- He also doesn't side out Jitte vs 12 Post but sides out all of his STPs. As with Reanimator most of 12 Post's bombs are actually STP-able (Titan, Platinum Emperion, non-Emrakul eldrazi.) It sucks to give them a million life and if they got a Titan out they still got a ton of value out of the sequence, but still, you don't auto-lose at that point if you have a STP, so I don't think you can go down to zero.
Overall I think the amount of equipment you side out often depends on how much you have to side in w/ your particular sb. Mono-W boards are more e-tutor/non-creature heavy, and sometimes you just won't have the relevant cards to side in to justify siding out Jitte, even if it feels very weak in the matchup. RW boards can be more creature heavy so you can replace it with a more immediate threat vs combo - but in some cases the creatures that are left to come in still might not be better than a slow piece of equipment. e.g. Containment Priest is probably not better than a Jitte vs Storm, because it just makes Vial bad.
Generally speaking I don't want Jitte vs Storm, Reanimator, Lands, SnS, Omni, 12 Post. So - decks that play no creatures or really really big creatures.
I don't want Batterskull vs Infect, 12 Post, Omni. So - decks that really don't care about your life total.
I side out SoFI pretty infrequently, I think as long as you're keeping in any SfMs you want the potential for the card advantage engine. Even against something like Maverick or Nic Fit, where the protection is basically useless, they're going to have to play around any of our creatures getting through with SoFI. I guess I side it out against Elves, because you just have so much to side in, it's never your first target with SfM, and it's not good without a flyer.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
How was Mangara in general and how do you feel about Cavern?
To me, Cavern is kind of a hot-topic. While I hate it in MonoW, i kinda like it in RW due to many humans. But I'm well aware that it increases the chance of manascrew in a not-insignificant amount.
I'm also pondering if I should switch one of my 2 Council's Judgment for 1 copy +1 Mangara in the board for Imperial tutoring goodness. But then again, I hate Mangara for being a slow, fragile PoS.
I think if you play Mangara it has to be main, because even vs the decks that he's good against he's going to be much worse g2. I've been going back and forth between Mangara/Wingmare/Crusader for my 2 flex spots main, and I think I like Mangara+Wingmare w/ Crusader in the board. I do find myself tutoring for Wingmare frequently enough to think it probably should stay as a one-of.
I think these things are more of a meta-decision than anything else though, against some local meta that's filled with slower janky combo decks like MUD, it's nice to have a Mangara. Going to a serious tournament expecting a lot of Shardless, Crusader might be necessary main. I'm receiving my Magus of the Wheels in the mail soon, and I'll probably just put one of those guys in that flex spot for a while, see how it goes.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
Generally speaking I don't want Jitte vs Storm, Reanimator, Lands, SnS, Omni, 12 Post. So - decks that play no creatures or really really big creatures.
I think Storm is the only MU I ever pull it in. It takes a turn to get going but swinging for 5 on a 1/x is fine and building counters so you can threaten Reanimator's fatties with +2/+2's or simply giving yourself a life boost to get another swing in is fine.
It's also good for killing your own guys. The other day I was building up my flyers while reanimator was on 4 life IIRC; once I had enough guys I just swung and then Plow'd the guy that GBrand blocked (he had archtype out.) Jitte can do the same thing (on offense or defense.) Hardly card of the year in the MU, but it can skew the expected life totals so your opponent dies to unknown or unexpected information.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Yeah those seem like reasonable uses for a grindier game. Like I said, I think it's more a question of how much you have to side in, like if you have tons of Containment Priests, RIPs, E tutors, Cage, Council's Judgments, then Jitte might not make the cut. It's really not a card you're thrilled to see in your opening hand against someone doing something broken t2/t3. But it never does absolutely nothing, even in the worst matchups.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Been browsing a lot through this thread lately, and I have some questions, that I hope you guys can answer:
1) What is D&T's bad match ups?
2) Does Vryn Wingmare help improve any of these bad match ups?
Thanks! :)
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sigar
Been browsing a lot through this thread lately, and I have some questions, that I hope you guys can answer:
1) What is D&T's bad match ups?
2) Does Vryn Wingmare help improve any of these bad match ups?
Thanks! :)
1) Punishing Jund and Elves are the two most popular decks which are truly just awful. Glass cannon combo decks like OOPS! All Spells, Belcher, and Leylines are also awful, but extremely rare.
2) It doesn't improve any of the bad matchups, but it does improve matchups of other popular decks. I personally don't think Wingmare is that good as any more that a one of, but others have had success with it.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Beyond Jund, Elves and T1 combo - 12-Post, Infect are also pretty unfavored, and I don't love playing against Stoneblade builds that are playing a tons of TNNs.
Wingmare is doing what D+T already was doing, and those decks are bad matchups because they're generally not too bothered by what D+T already does. That doesn't mean Wingmare is bad - I think the 4 Wingmare builds push the already 'weak to Thalia effects' matchups (Combo, Delver) into even more favorable territory. Sometimes you'll play 5 of those decks in a row and they'll barely cast a spell. But it does put all of your eggs into one basket, and the decks that are weak to Thalia effects tend to have some anti-Thalia sb cards, all of which also hit Wingmare.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
The article is really strange actually. He says Cavern is very good against Storm's FOWs and implies that MUD plays Magus of the Moon. (He probably meant one of their similar taxing effects like Lodestone? Anyway, Magus is a good card *against* MUD.)
Wescoe's sb plan has all kinds of weird stuff going on. I think it ultimately comes down to him playing legacy maybe once a year. I think when you're a player of his caliber you can not be very familiar with the format and still go 11-4 (really 8-4), just by not making any in-game mistakes. I think he came to the conclusion that Spirit of the Labyrinth is not that great, especially in today's meta, but people who have been playing Mono-W more regularly already knew that.
Weird things in his sb plan include:
- Not siding in Pithing Needle vs D+T, Stoneblade, Maverick, Elves or MUD but siding it in vs Storm and Dredge where it's far more marginal.
- He doesn't side in Ethersworn Canonist vs Infect and sides out SoFI - which isn't as good as Jitte, but can do a good impression in a pinch.
- Siding out SoFI vs RUG Delver. Not your best equipment but still generally wins the game if you get it on a flyer or Crusader.
- He sides out all 4 STP vs Miracles, which I think is a death sentence now that Miracles is using Mentor as their main win con.
- Doesn't bring in Relic-Warder vs Sneak (the plan doesn't list it vs Affinity, but he mentions it, so there's probably some typo there.)
- Sides out Mirran Crusaders vs Reanimator, when he can attack past Griselbrand and doesn't die to most of their post-board removal, but doesn't side out Jitte, which is really not a card you want very often, and becomes even worse without your Crusaders to put it on.
- He also doesn't side out Jitte vs 12 Post but sides out all of his STPs. As with Reanimator most of 12 Post's bombs are actually STP-able (Titan, Platinum Emperion, non-Emrakul eldrazi.) It sucks to give them a million life and if they got a Titan out they still got a ton of value out of the sequence, but still, you don't auto-lose at that point if you have a STP, so I don't think you can go down to zero.
Overall I think the amount of equipment you side out often depends on how much you have to side in w/ your particular sb. Mono-W boards are more e-tutor/non-creature heavy, and sometimes you just won't have the relevant cards to side in to justify siding out Jitte, even if it feels very weak in the matchup. RW boards can be more creature heavy so you can replace it with a more immediate threat vs combo - but in some cases the creatures that are left to come in still might not be better than a slow piece of equipment. e.g. Containment Priest is probably not better than a Jitte vs Storm, because it just makes Vial bad.
Generally speaking I don't want Jitte vs Storm, Reanimator, Lands, SnS, Omni, 12 Post. So - decks that play no creatures or really really big creatures.
I don't want Batterskull vs Infect, 12 Post, Omni. So - decks that really don't care about your life total.
I side out SoFI pretty infrequently, I think as long as you're keeping in any SfMs you want the potential for the card advantage engine. Even against something like Maverick or Nic Fit, where the protection is basically useless, they're going to have to play around any of our creatures getting through with SoFI. I guess I side it out against Elves, because you just have so much to side in, it's never your first target with SfM, and it's not good without a flyer.
It is true that sideboard plans depends on the list you are playing. In particular I agree with Wescoe in some discussion points:
- I sometimes side out SoFaI against RUG Delver, specially with Vryn Wingmare's version because this equipment is worse than Batterskull and Umezawa's Jitte in this matchup in lots of situations, usually will need a flyer to work over Tarmogoyf and it is too slow against a high clock like this. But depends on the list, I prefer side out it before than Mirran Crusader or Vryn Wingmare.
- I always side out the full set of StP against Miracles. For me does not matter the version. I do that because I do not want draw dead cards, I consider we have enough penalty depending on topdeck so I want to reduce dead cards. Usually side out a Plains and consider I have enough removal with Cataclysm, Ratchet Bomb and Council's Judgment. Des not matter StP against Monastery Mentor because when he hits the field the oponent very often has Counterbalance + Top unless he has the neccesity of a chump blocker so it is probably that StP be irrelevant.
- Do the same against 12-Post because when Titan or an eldrazi touch the battlefield you have lost. You will eat bomb after bomb until you cannot fight more. So here I prefer more Needles, Ports and Wastelands. I side out Umezawa's Jitte too of course. Same mechanic against Lands. We want to fight before Marit Lage not after. Consider Flickerwisp, Needles and Karakas enough. Usually 0 StP in those matchups.
Sorry if you read some mistakes. My english is nearly to poor and I am writing with Tapatalk.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee (this is about the RUG matchup)
If you go t1 Vial and use Wasteland/Ports to muck up their first few plays, vialing in a Magus lets you win even if they do happen to have plenty of lands and a better hand than you do.
Yeah, but this is living the dream. You beat half the DtB forum just with that opening. I prefer facing RUG with monowhite, and it is not a close call. I find that the red really plays into their wheelhouse rather than the other way round. The entire red package of D+T feels win-more to me anyway. Monowhite lets me leverage my skill and knowledge of timing and interactions rather than just landing a killer card. I guess it is the idea that I have more control over my fate. That's really what D+T classically does, rarely more clearly seen than against RUG.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I dunno, I feel like real control over your topdecks is precisely what Mono-w has always lacked, which is why Recruiter is actually the key addition and Moon is more of a band-aid for certain bad matchups and a way to cheat easy wins. D+T is the only deck in the DtB section with no card draw or card selection (beyond SFM) and that's not a small disadvantage when any game goes long. There's no controlling your fate if your top 4 cards are lands.
I got a playset of Magus of the Wheel in the mail today, we'll see how that guy plays. How many have you been running main for the lists you've tested with?
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
I dunno, I feel like real control over your topdecks is precisely what Mono-w has always lacked, which is why Recruiter is actually the key addition and Moon is more of a band-aid for certain bad matchups and a way to cheat easy wins. D+T is the only deck in the DtB section with no card draw or card selection (beyond SFM) and that's not a small disadvantage when any game goes long. There's no controlling your fate if your top 4 cards are lands.
I got a playset of Magus of the Wheel in the mail today, we'll see how that guy plays. How many have you been running main for the lists you've tested with?
3 recruiter / 2 magus or 2 recruiters / 3 magus (I personnally run 2/3 but more because I don't have the third recruiter).
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tylert
3 recruiter / 2 magus or 2 recruiters / 3 magus (I personnally run 2/3 but more because I don't have the third recruiter).
I like the the 3/2 split. Magus is a worse Gray Ogre in certain match-ups, so you don't want to draw too many of them there. More Recruiters also means more flexibility to find whatever you need, including SB bullets. E.g. against Dredge, I played T1 Vial, T2 RiP (which got Nature's Claim'ed), T3 Recruiter into Vial --> Containment Priest, salt ensued. :tongue:
I still run a 3rd Magus in the board for the match-ups where he's really needed.
I'm still not sure whether I should run 3 Sudden Demise or 2 Demise/1 Fireslinger in the board. I'd love to hear more input regarding Fireslinger.
Other than that, I really like my current configuration.
