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About Show and Tell
This trick save me just tonight, but damn it's hard to work, my opponent was still able to brainstorm into cunning wish to find (but fail) a solution (thx to a second red blast) . And Snapcaster just do the job alone ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Minniehajj
how can he do that if he is out of Sorceries while Snap/Clique trigger is on the stack?Quote:
Originally Posted by kravkenov
Against Miracle, anyway the wise Omnitell player will just Probe/Seize before SnT anyway.. it's just free or for B
Omnitell is a bad matchup imho, as well as Eldrazi
We should find a way to take Boseiju out of them Rishadan Port would be a solution, but it's out of question. Is there a "tap enchanted land forever" card around?
EDIT. yes there is:
Convincing Mirage
Lingering Mirage
Imprisoned by the Moon
Phantasmal Terrain
Sea's Claim
Spreading Seas (very fine baby that also cantrips)
Of all these I would say Spreading Seas but it's just way too narrow. It also affects Eldrazi if you place it on Eye of Ugin or Cloudpost, but still, too narrow.
I written to speedily. It was Brainstorm and two of the wish that tutor for instant or sorcery in sideboard.
First post edited ;)
we still need Containment Priest anyway
With the trigger trick we can prevent him from dropping Emrakul on the spot and then destroy the Omniscience with Wear, Disenchant and Pyroblast, but we still need something that prevents him from SnT into direct Emrakul because.. it's just a killer.
Karakas helps against SnT fatty.
hey guys im getting back into legacy after a long hiatus. does anyone know of a good primer for the deck. I remember there was a community premier that was being made. what happened to that? any help would be appreciated. thanks in advance
Normally I agree with this, but infect is a deck with only 12 threats we care about. If Wear//Tear is in your sideboard, I'd definitely bring it in for the match up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
Karakas does not help against Omniscience. Karakas doesn't help against Sneak Attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
We don't NEED Containment priest, and it doesn't leave a trigger. If you have Priest, and they have omniscience, you are beat.
Rishidan port is just garbage. If you wan't that effect, you play Tsabo's Web. *Or do it like the Japanese at GP Kyoto and play two wastelands.
Your MU analysis makes Zero sense. Zero. Lossett has defeated Omnitell plenty of times, I've done the same in my testing as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
You don't fight Boseiju, and you don't fight Show and Tell, you just Don't. When they play Show and Tell off Boseiju, you put down Canonist. Once they put down Omni, you Red Blast/enchantment removal the Omni, it's done, the cunning wish route doesn't even work. When they ponder/brainstorm to try to setup Show and Tell + Omni, you do the same to setup your counter-combo.
If they Show and Tell and put down the 15/15 without Omni, you will still put down Canonist, then you can just Venser/Terminus the spaghetti monster, or just play Karakas later. I know most people don't like to run that land anymore, not me.
The only route we have trouble defending from Omnitell is Show and Tell and put Griselbrand into play. Some variants start doing that recently.
You have yourself to blame if you run zero Karakas and zero Canonist, then proceed to conclude that this MU is in Omni's favor. You built your deck to attribute to that, don't generalize it.
Last but not the least, some Show and Tell players even abandoned the combo approach all together facing Miracles, they just go for Mentor or YP win-con. Therefore you cannot SB-out all the board wipes.
possibly that's why.
I play 0 Canonist and 0 Karakas.
Canonist is useless against everything but this (also against storm combo we already have 4 Counterbalance and 3 Flusterstorm as well as 4 FoW)
So: Omnitell is a good matchup for legendary build? I can see that. It's just that.. I don't play it.
I find it too weak to Blasts
He never said the matchup was unwinnable, congrats on winning some games, he said it's bad. It is bad, Boseiju is a big problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Since DTT got banned Omnitell has declined in play, for good reason. Canonist is hardly seeing any play in Miracle SBs anymore, which I agree with since this matchup doesn't happen enough for it to be necessary. If these were your arguments with DTT in the format I'd agree, but that's not the case.
Look at all the recent Miracles lists making top 8s / winning events, there are very, very few Karakas and Canonist. Sure, you play them, but you're in the minority.
if the Omnitell player starts the combo with a Trickbind in his hand the matchup is simply unwinnable (apart from fancy happening, like CB with 2 on top)
Boseiju, Snt --> Omni (Trickbind in hand in case a trigger appears), empty stack he gets priority, Emmy
If triggering permants are going to spawn they'll just add a piece to the combo.
What's the only problem they have?
Disruption, discards, and tempo.
We don't run discards and they have all the tempo in the world.
IMHO: It's a bad matchup. Luckily they get hated a lot by Infect, DnT, Eldrazi and Grixis.
That's why you never see one around
Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Would you mind sharing your list?
4 SDTQuote:
Originally Posted by mike1987
4 CB
3 Snapcaster mage
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will
4 StP
1 Kozileik's return
2 Mentor
2 Jtms
1 Council's Judgement
1 EE
1 Entreat the angels
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
2 Arid mesa
4 Flooded strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
2 Plains
3 Scalding tarn
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic island
SB
1 RiP
1 Surgical
1 Canonist
1 FoW
2 Flusterstorm
1 REB
2 Pyroblast
2 Clique
2 Wear//Tear
1 From the Ashes
1 Pyroclasm
It's a typical list, not all that special. Moved a FoW to SB and a K-Return to MD because my LGS is messed-up.
Containment Priest is just a bad card against Omnitell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Once you play it you are much more likely to lose because you can't show a snapcaster/clique anymore.
You are supposed to keep some copies of terminus/jace to fight against show emrakul.
Can't you just play Seal of Cleansing instead of Containment Priests? Isn't that still pretty strong? Seems pretty good against Vial, Chalice, doesn't turn on Displacer. It's not good against some things Priest is, but helps other matchups. Has anyone tested it? Is o-ring better? Or unnecessary altogether?
Seal of Cleansing is very good but just there and in the mirror (and it requires set up in both cases).
Contaniment Priest shuts down:
- Shardless Sultai cascade creatures (which is always super sweet)
- Reanimator
- Dredge
- SneakShow
- Ather Vial decks
- GSZ/Natural Order decks like Maverick and Elves
it's just a matter of present metagame.
apart from Counterbalance and Omniscience how do you use it?
For Sylvan Library, Needle and Null Rod Disenchant/Tear is just better
Containment Priest doesn't shut down cascade creatures at all...Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Hah, yeah. Containment Priest does do a pretty neat Ashcoat Bear impression though :cool:
Another reason not to run Seal is the anti-synergy with Snapcaster Mage.
I have been playiing it bad all this time then haha
good to know thanks
I've been testing with some friends and online and I think I have a tuned list to take to GP Chiba. Here's what I got:
4x Flooded Strand
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Arid Mesa
4x Island
1x Plains
1x Mountain
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Sensei's Diving Top
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Terminus
4 Force of Will
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Jace, the Mindsculptor
3x Counterbalance
2x Counterspell
2x Predict
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Monastery Mentor
SIDEBOARD
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Wear // Tear
1x Containment Priest
2x Vendilion Clique
3x Flusterstorm
1x Blood Moon
2x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
There are a few things of note:
I wanted to find a way to fit in 2 counterspells and 2 predicts. Counterspell is just a great catch all for problem cards. The 2 predict are great because they can help me dig when my other cantrips are otherwise locked by a chalice or if my top becomes useless due to a needle. In order to fit these cards, I cut 1 counterblance, which I feel is either hit or miss based on the matchup. Despite the lower amount, I still feel confident to be able to find them when I need them with all of my cantrips. I feel that this main is pretty solid but I am still open to criticisms.
Another point that I have been working on but am less sure about is the mana base. I wanted to be able to have a basic mountain in my deck. Because I am not running Entreat nor Council's Judgement, I felt it was ok to change one of the plains into a mountain. I also like having access to 4 islands so in order to fit them in, I cut a fetch. While these changes have been ok in testing, I am not very adept at building a mana base so please let me know what you think.
Lastly I hate having to run Blood Moon in my side but I am at a loss for what else to run. I have been seeing some Japanese players take Eldrazi to the local GPTs and legacy FNMs for testing and they seem to be doing well. Most of the rest of side seems to be where I want to be but the blood moon is the one card I wish I could leave at home. What do you guys think?
I'm gonna continue to do more testing as the GP gets nearer but I feel that this list is pretty close. Let me know what you guys think and I'll try to update my progress.
This list looks very similar to what we played at GP Columbus, basically -1 EE MD for +1 Cspell to go up to 3 and the game plan becomes almost all instant speed interaction. I liked the list, but it had a few inherent weaknesses and I can't imagine leaving home without 4 balance anymore, simply due to how Delver decks have come to adapt to us these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misersoneof
From the Ashes is another wonderful card to play right after a Terminus.
Even tough I would play Ruination because they play Wastes and you can skip that with the basic Mountain + usual basics.
I would consider 2x Ruination for every matchup but DnT and Infect in place of Blood Moon
Grixis, Sultai, Eldrazi, 12 posts and many others are totally busted by a well timed Ruination with Countertop set.
This is what my test partners keep saying. Running anything less than 4 counterbalances seems crazy to them. What do you suggest Minnie?Quote:
Originally Posted by Minniehajj
yea, you need 4 Counterbalance because they will break the first one or even the second
No, you don't. I've played three counterbalances forever, and I have yet to miss the fourth one. The only matchup where counterbalance is required to even be able to compete is against Burn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Three counterbalances is completly viable, if you tune your list to only contain three. That could be due to playing a counterspell more maindeck, a spell snare, a clique or some other piece of interaction. The counterbalance has to be replaced by something that gives you interaction.
Looking at DTB at the momentQuote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
MU 4 CB 3 CB Miracles mirror better worse Eldrazi worse one less dead card DnT worse one less dead card Shardless BUG depends on what the replacement of 4th CB is depends on what the replacement of 4th CB is
If you can replace the 4th CB that would be diverse enough to help you in these DTB MUs, I don't see why not. Looking at the chart, don't think Counterspell is the clear choice as the replacement. You preferably want something that's Not CMC 1 and it would either get rid of a problematic permanent and/or deal damage to creature and/or planeswalker. EE seems like a nice catch-all, but at sorcery speed, unlikely to get rid of Prelate, any Eldrazi dudes, Tarpit, or opposing Jace.
we have to make a reason we will need to be prepared very well to the mirror match
time for fancy testings!! Sulfur Elemental + Clique back again?
Shardless = creature-based, Eldrazi=creature-based, DnT= creature-based, Miracles: has SCM and Monks.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Looks like Supreme Verdict + more basics (3/4 play Wasteland) could actually be a sensible replacement for CB#4 :cool:
If you view it as an uncounterable Wrath that is a CJ+:u: and consider that more often than not CJ hits creatures anyway, it doesn't seem so odd.
Being better prepared against Elves, Infect, Dredge, Reanimator, Painter, Grixis Tempo, Bob.dec, Tribal.dec, etc. is a nice bonus.
What is more we'd free up another creature hate SB slot.
Making sure to win G1s against creature-based strategies certainly is a viable alternative to "catch-all" MDs.
Verdict is very weak to Thorn and DnT in General, but yes it's a great card.
In a meta which is creature infested Cavern and Vial male CB much less important.
The point why I will keep 4: multiples will pitch to FoW, everyone will aim to remove it and overall it is necessari in he mirror which is like the average matchup around
ifQuote:
Originally Posted by Poron
I play 4 myself, however at the end of the day that number is meta-dependent. And the current DTB looks like 4 is not a given any longer. Moving one to the side seems like an elegant solution to me, if one is annoyed by drawing multiples too often.
Regarding less than 4 balance: I think, it's okay to go down to 3 but you have to compensate in your main deck for matchups where you are hurt by not having that 4th balance. We did this at the GP thinking that the 3 counterspell would compensate okay, but you can do this in other ways depending on what your priorities are. Things like EE cover a percentage of matchups like Delver, Elves, etc where balance is good, while things like MD blasts or additional counterspells are good in the mirror. Doing this tilts your deck in a variety of ways, but just keep in mind when constructing. You have to compensate for any weaknesses you create!
I play with 3 Counterbalance for quite a while and I have to say, I don't miss the 4th. Playing 3 copies let you draw into one CB relugary without being "flooded" by an unneeded second one. To compensate this, I play a 1x Spell Snare and a 1x Counterspell along side to the 4x Force, and also a couple of Impulse. I know this card doesn't see any play, but it's a very strong card to search the appropriate answer at the right time, it dig so deep ! Being 2cmc also help against chalice deck to find Explosive, Wear//Tear or Disenchant. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Minniehajj
What about the rest of your main? Are you still running 2 pierce and 1 counterspell? Impulse seems like an interesting card but I don't know if I'd want to run it over Predict.Quote:
Originally Posted by kravkenov
I shaved the 2x Spell Pierce and 1x Explosives for 1x Counterspell (keeping in the 1x Spell Snare, which is better than Spell Pierce imo) and 2x Impulse. I also want to try 1x Karakas (-1x Plains) to see how it goes. So my main look like this :Quote:
Originally Posted by Misersoneof
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Monastery Mentor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Impulse
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
4 Terminus
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
Honestly, there is no need for the 4th CB, one is more then enough per game and there is no rush to land it in the first place.
Given the amount of cantrips we play having 3 or 4 of them doesn't make much difference, we are still likely to find one if needed, playing the full set is just helpful against abrupt decay, and we already beat most decay decks.
the mirror. in the mirror you want the fourth
There are much stronger card if you want to have an advantage in the mirror.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
I would suggest Spell Snare, but there are a lot more.
It's important to realize that CB is strong only in the game 1 of the mirror, postboard you dont want to rush anyway.
you feel Snare is better than CB in the mirror?
A CB with Wear/Tear on top will leave him with 1 Council's Judgment 3 finisher, 2 Jace and 54 stones
That's not what he said. He said Snare is a reasonable replacement for CB as it's very strong in the mirror too, not better than.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron