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Oh another thought that I can't remember if it has been mentioned yet, but surgical extraction can be cast in response to miracles tapping their top, ruining their attempt at a miracle (unless they have it all with a BS in hand). I like the card a lot better now, even if it is a 1 for 0 (but so is the card pitched to FoW), but we need every edge we can get.
If you've already hit a copy of the miracle card with Therapy or Thoughtseize, you can also let the Top resolve then respond to the Miracle trigger by extracting it, so you get to strip it from their hand and they have to shuffle their Top away. They also can't Brainstorm out of it that way.
Haha, yes, I'm aware of the dream scenario too. But stopping the first entreat is necessary / what I'm talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
But you're right, a good point to make.
And this is the main reason I have come to the conclusion that Abeyance has no space in the sideboard. I mean, I like the card because I have played it, it has potential, but I really want to play more impactful hate cards (at the core: discard, surgical, Sgames, combo hate, 1-2 PW).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
Surgical, as you said in the quoted post, seems to fill the role that is covered by abeyance, while being a multi purpose tool at our disposal that hits other strategies.
Tldr: I like abeyance but It's job against miracles (and storm to a lesser extent) is done by surgical already, the 76 is real packed and abeyance seems like a card that fills the 16-17th slots in the sideboard, if you know what I mean.
@Rubblekill, I see what you're saying but I would never run more than two surgical extractions against miracles.. The card isn't good, it's just better than veteran explorer. I prefer abeyance to surgical against miracles, storm, elves and shardless. Hence I run a split.
But you're right space is tight and maybe the absolute answer of slaughter games is better than the tempo play of abeyance. I just really don't like playing a taiga. Could play Tiaga in the side, since we want more lands when we cut veteran explorer.. Or could run the mono black counterable version of the card in exchange for better mana against all matchups but with the risk the card gets countered (unlikely, though possible..)
Infact I play two SE. And the problem I was referring to is that I got not space for both SE AND abeyance (and 3 Sgames). In g2-3 the n1 goal is to survive until turn four to game them, and I think we have all come to the conclusion that games is a necessary evil. I also hate that taiga but games is necessary unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
If the assumption is "does it overlap with SE sometimes" ?Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
The answer is: "Yes, it has some overlap"
But, it does not mean overlapping is a bad thing.
SE CAN mess with a miracle trigger. But with SE + Abeyance, you will play SE/abeyance more aggressively against SCM shenanigans; and thus messing with their next best card in their deck.
Abeyance can also protect one of your key spell (preventing any counterspell from being played once resolved): like sticking a deed on the board.
In the "grand scheme of things", SE + Abeyance are just making games against Miracle faster and thus your match winnable.
SE, only, is already very nice but you will durdle far more and thus you will likely end up drawing the game.
@ Thread:
From my point of view, we are already "high" on the Legacy curve, so that, in my sense, we should not seek to keep the curve as high post board.
It means the following:
1) Against better control decks, we are not in the control seat and we should be the beatdown. 2 PW/2 SLG coming from the board will not help enough to win the match. Sure you'll have chances to take G2 but very likely you won't be able to finish G3. Why ? PW/SLG does not kill miracle fast enough. If you didn't scoop fast G1, there is a good chance that the miracle player will drag you into a draw.
2) Against combo deck, we are supposed to be in the control seat. But to really be in the control seat means that we have to interact with the stack or to lock the game, in some way. Nic Fit is already a sorcery speed deck and adding further sorcery spells demanding 4+ mana is clearly not where I want to be. G2 might be winnable because we are on the play. G3 is a really different story.
Interacting with the stack while not playing "blue" is really difficult, I acknowledge that. But overall, I think it would be harder to transform into a prison shell.
3) It's been 6 months (at least) since the last time I saw many lists playing Liliana. Wake up gentlemen... SHE is one of our best tool against other control decks and a very nice addition against combo decks. Why does she have disappeared from our tools ? Liliana + SDT is likely one of the most disgusting synergy we can offer to any opponent.
If I could scan my LotV into my computer and play them on modo I would... I draw the line a $90 cards on modo, so unfortunately she really isn't an option. I could buy her and then sell her back again at a $10 loss per card. But yea, I guess I can test her in paper when I can.
That said, in my experience playing Junk before nic fit, LotV really doesn't do much against miracles. She gets them hell bent like our discard currently does and then they either entreat anyway, cast a mentor and make a token, or you use her to kill a Jace or half of their 8 lands. Really not a big deal.
@Matt, you've also played s lot of junk and still post in the forum, what's your thoughts on Liliana against miracle?
You come to valid conclusions, but I don't really see you presenting a solution here. I think it's safe to say we (as a community) won't be agreeing on LotV as answer to Miracles and vs. ANT/TES she's too slow. Building further on your premise, how would you want to attack this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
I understand your point, but my reasoning is: I like Games and SE better and before Abeyance. The overlap would not be a problem, heck it would be a bonus instead. I still like Abeyance for all the reasons you have listed, I am not denying the fact that the card plays well with other hate effects (like SE). I simply don't have space for more cards in my sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
My plan in G2-3 against cancer.deck is "reach 4 mana asap and game their wincon", I often feel like I am in the one in the control seat while they durdle in the first turns with top and counterbalance, I won't play a rhino before a games if I can afford to do it; meanwhile abeyance is a 2 mana card that can be countered or balanced (just like SE). Imho games remains a necessary evil and has to be played at least as a 3-of, and this doesn't allow me to play abeyance AND games AND SE AND other stuff I feel I need.
So in conclusion I'm not saying you are wrong, instead I do even agree with most of what you have said. Only I have other priorities for my sb.
I have to agree with Echelon here: LotV is too slow in the matchups where she is needed and miracles float their key cards in the top 3. Instead of a 3 mana discard spell I'd rather play 1 cmc discard against them and choose the card to discard directly. And lili does not complement, in my opinion, the philosophy of this deck: EVERY card in our deck matters and is basically gas. I don't want to discard any of them.
Isn't that why we all pilot this deck? We love our cards too much to discard them and want to play them no matter what, be it SFM or Karador!Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Anyways. People aren't satisfied with Slaughter Games, Abeyance and LotV for one reason or another so let go of those as possible solutions and let's see if we can Sherlock Holmes this shit.
I reckon Miracles and ANT/TES both are MUs where we'd like to board in 10 cards or so. That means that out of 15 available cards, at least 5 need to pull double duty vs. those decks.
Now I believe the general consensus for the Miracles MU is that we need more threats and that those threats must be incredibly hard to remove and that cards vs. ANT/TES cannot cost >2 mana b/c that makes them too slow.
This puts the basic requirements model for our SB at:
- Cards used during the ANT/TES MU may not cost >2 mana
- At least 10 cards must have value for the Miracles MU
- At least 10 cards must have value for the ANT/TES MU
- Card selections must be done under the assumption there is no access to red or blue mana
So... Who wants to start? I'm also looking for a way to describe requirements for a portion of the Miracles cards (something along the lines of threats may not be killable by StP/Terminus or something along those lines).
That's not what we are saying at all. I was beating them down with main deck threats that were hard to remove while being up in cards all 3 games and I still lost two of them because of entreat. We need answers for their threats (unless you can think of a threat that is an answer for entreat?), there's no way we can go under them with just more threats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I used to play humility + equipment as a sideboard plan against a lot of decks. It works against entreat as well, something to consider for those on SFM.
Have we ever tried?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
Besides, I excluded it from the requirements for a reason. Give it a go. Saying "We can't" (right off the bat, mind you) has never solved shit.
Between Grip and 3 Deeds (and pulse theoretically) angels are not a problem usually. JTMS is. At least with how I play/how my deck is constructed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
It can be and variance is a thing, you know that. It's a valid point to want to address it.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
I'm confused. You said "the general consensus" was to add more threats post-board against miracles and used that as part of your requirements. I don't think that is the general consensus at all :/ By all means you can try it and make it one of your requirements, I don't think it's going to work since without any tempo plays they can just one for one you until they entreat or Jace, but that is neither here nor there, I was just addressing that you seemed to think more threats is the conclusion we have come to, when that isn't the case? We are talking about answers. I'm confused.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I'd add these as board conditions:
- Must have a SB replacement for cards which cost life against Delver/aggressive decks
- Must have at least one way of dealing with artifacts and enchantments with cmc>3 post board
Putting these in just so we don't auto-lose to rogue decks because we can't kill a Smokestack or similar stuff post-board. Obviously a lot of our lists have a Reclamation Sage or QPM in the maindeck so it's not a problem, but it should probably be in the requirements.
For Miracles - I think Humility might be worth more of a look here. It's particularly relevant when combined with Sorin. I remember we discussed the possibility of running Elspeth (KE or 6CMC) in combination with Humility because she wins pretty well with it, but Sorin does basically the same thing but also kills Jace which is pretty big.
@Navsi, tbh I don't think you should be running unmaking specifically because you are siding it out against delver. There are painless options that are just as good that you could be playing instead that allow you to keep in more removal against delver, pulse, vindicate, council's judgment etc
Also, humility shuts down snapcaster, clique, entreat, mentor, venser, all of shardless's threats, tribal decks (merfolk, goblins, elves, eldrazi lol, D&T), reanimator, show n tell etc etc The problem with it being that you have to play equipment to break the symmetry. Also humility + engineered plague is a dream that has been realised a few times ha
EDIT: I typed miracles to begin with when I meant Delver -.- miracles on the brain.
I was more referring to Painful Truths than Unmaking really, I consider most of the Vindicate variants relatively interchangable (I play Unmaking currently because my meta is light on delver and has quite a bit of Lands and Miracles).
Ah, I see, then I entirely agree :) though I don't mind a thoughtsieze or two against the non-burn buildsQuote:
Originally Posted by Navsi