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Vryn Wingmare so far is "ok" for me, I run in mono-white a 3-off atm, thinking about bringing it down, maybe split it to Wingmare/Mangara/Crusader
btw what about Celestial Crusader? I think it can give us some depth, but maybe not taxing enough? what you guys think?
I believe iatee was referring to Magus of the Wheel, I have no idea what the numbers are for that since you can't even tutor for it.
I don't really think Mangara is a substitute for Council's Judgment, Judgment is there when you need an answer, and Mangara is there to lock them down.
I think I only faced one matchup where I could've tutored for him in a good spot, which was against Mono W D&T, but I'd sided him out, which I think was a mistake. He had the Revoker in hand for it anyways, but I think it would still have been correct for me to tutor for it. Every other time I considered finding him, I didn't have a Karakas in play, or Magus of the Moon was just going to do more work.
That's not to say he isn't insane. I like fetching him vs MUD, for example, and Miracles when you have a Mom in play. I agree that the card is really fragile, but it's also has the ability to lock up a game, so while I hated him before in Mono W because you could never control when you drew that son of a bitch, now we get him when the getting's good and don't get him when he's useless. I think his utility is far better now.
I started with three and went to four after a few games.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Can you give us a list to work with? I have a hard time to find the necessary cuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Sorry, you did ask for that before. I began with your list, though I think it may have been an old one. As I said, once I called them beaters it was easy to find room for Magi. 16 humans is a lot, and 2 caverns was good.
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
3 Magus of the Wheel
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Magus of the Moon
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
After trying a lot of stuff that sucked, I found myself wanting to mess with the mana to make room for 4 Chrome Mox. Strangely, there is actually too much durdling with this version. I first traded a Recruiter in for a 4th Magus of the Wheel. I ended up cutting the Recruiters to make room for 2 Chrome Mox, and that worked well, though I think the deck needs one more mox in place of a land. Cutting Recruiters entirely messes with the deck a lot. You want to go balls first with the way I am pushing. It's a bit different from what D+T has done in the past.
I am afraid that this is where my testing is likely to stop for some time.
Do you mean, you're outta da game?! I know you haven't been on the tourney scene last couple years from no time and whatnot, but surely you mean, "this is where my testing will stop because I'm happy with this configuration"...Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Anyway, I'm wondering if you could give me a breakdown on your key spots where you are finding you want Magus of the Wheel, because even the suggestion of 3 means it's an integral part to the gameplan, but 4 is even bolder than that still. What are the main situations where you want the Magus effect? I'm a little late to this idea as it's not frequently mentioned on MTGSal. Is it mostly used to restock against attrition decks, or is this a Vendillion Clique-type effect, used to breakup combo? Against attrition like BUG Cascade, Stoneblade, or Jund, you might load up a new 7 while they have 5 cards in card, netting you +7 vs. their +2 (nice!), but they still have 5 lands in play and now the bandwidth to do multiple things of 2-for-1 value in a single turn. Or if you activated Magus to stop a combo chain like Storm or Elves, there's always the pretty good chance that your opponent will just draw back his same needed combo piece and continue on, unfazed. I'm hoping you can give a summation of what it's done in actual game situations that warrants the "run a playset" conversation, because it seems somehow breakable, but I'm just not getting it at face value.
Wait, Chrome Mox???????????
What? Really? For real?
Even Painter uses Lotus Petal/Simian Spirit Guide, is Chrome Mox really something we can afford?
Hey guys, I have three questions
How are you guys sideboarding against Miracles these days?
+1 Ratchet Bomb?
+1 Magus of the Moon
+1 Sword of War and Peace - if you're running it
+2 Council's Judgment ?
I think keeping some or all copies of Swords to Plowshares is smart since Mentor is expected
How is Sword of War and Peace working out (for those playing with it)
I feel like SoFi is much better, but protection from white is very strong - especially with Snapcaster buying back Swords to Plowshares
Are you boarding equipment out to make room for War and Peace?
What are your sideboards looking like in general?
I saw Barook's list and would love to make room for Needle and Ratchet Bomb
Quote:
Barook's sideboard
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Sword of War and Peace
SB: 3 Fireslinger/Sudden Demise
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SoWaP is great against Mentor, as they can't toss a token in the way, plus Miracles likes to hold a big hand. If you run all 4 equipment in the 75, my question is if you'd take out Jitte, and run the two swords and Batterskull (can reset after Terminus/StP, etc.). Jitte is great against Snaps and Cliques, but I'm not sure if Cliques come in against us.
EDIT: I think Barook posted on Salvation that he runs three maindeck Revokers, which along with Recruiters reduces the need for Needle. Sudden Demise and such are meant to reduce the need for Bomb. Since you're talking about disruption of permanents though, I suppose you could remove a Judgment to make room for Needle or Bomb if you really wanted it. I don't mind the second Judgment though.
EDIT2: So I hate how Salvation doesn't include the text of posts when they send email notifications, but at least that forces you to read the latest version of the post. Editing an existing post on the Source often just makes people miss your edits. Sigh.
For RW I don't think Magus of the Moon is great against Miracles, I side them out rather than in. While in some cases you can spike wins g1 off them not being able to fetch, it's still better to have your Ports/Karakii/Caverns, and they aggressively fetch basics early.
I consider the matchup good enough that I just side out the Maguses and toss in whatever random grindy-game cards I have. Honestly, if you have 4 STP / always have an answer for Mentor, you don't have that much to worry about and the burden is on them to have a great sideboard.
@TokenSoldier: With Sudden Demise, I think there is less need to run Ratchet Bomb. Pithing Needle would be nice, but I can't really see cutting anything from my board right now since the numbers seem to be in the right place. The E-Tutor is already a compromise to cut down RiP and Canonist to 2 copies. I'm also currently testing 1 Mangara as Recruiter target in place of 1 Council's Judgment since they fill similiar roles, but Mangara can be tutored.
@kirbysdl: I went -1 Serra Avenger +1 Revoker in the MD from my current list. Even with 3 Recruiters, 2 Revokers feel like they're too thinly spread over the deck, especially with no Needle in the board. Although I'm considering to test a single Top in the slot of Serra Avenger for more library manipulation since the deck runs 13 (!) shuffle effects. Might be cool, but the continous mana investment is something to keep in mind.
@Finn: Slots definitely seem like an issue with that kind of build. I definitely want a 3rd Revoker, so that would either mean cutting into the count of Magus of the Moon/Wheel or Recruiter - and I'm not keen about doing either. One of the main problems I see with Imperial Taxes is the high amount of 3 drops, especially the utility ones, since the slow down the deck and take away beater slots. That's where the "durdly" feeling comes from and why I cut 1-of Recruiter targets from the MD to bring back more Recruiters/Serra Avengers.
With the right amount of CA, Chrome Mox might be a viable inclusion, but 4 right of the bat seems excessive, especially when you try to cut into your CA engines.
Edit: Jammed two matches against Miracles and Elves with a 2 Chrome Mox build. It felt highly unsatisfying because the card disadvantage hurts way too much. I don't like it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I think Mangara is a great call over Council's Judgement. I just played the Daily Event and had a hard time finding double white for Judgement when Magus was on the board. At least with Mangara we have Vial if we're in that position.
About what match-up are we talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by TokenSoldier
On a different note:
I'm testing to put my Sword of War and Peace in the MD (yes, 4 equips MD) and move the second MD copy of Magus to the board and see how goes. With more MD equipment, I'm going back to run a flyer in my flexspot - either Serra Avenger, or what I'm currently testing, Kor Skyfisher for being tutorable and providing utility.
Hey all.
I'm still playing Red/White, and finally had the opportunity to play a Legacy Daily. For me these Daily Events almost never fire at a convenient time. :(
I went 3-1, so I figured I'd write up a report.
Round 1: Miracles - Win
G1: Opponent was stuck on double plains for a few turns. I had Port, Thalia, and Revoker (naming Top) out for the beat down play. Eventually my opponent drew an Island so I ported that for a few turns.
G2: Was very close. Opponent eventually got through. I was looping Recruiters but they got hit with swords to plowshares to end the loop. My opponent closed it out with Batterskull and Jace.
G3: I had the recruiter loop very early and eventually equipped Sword of War and Peace to close it out.
Round 2: Lands - Win
G1: My opponent kept hitting me with wasteland, but I opened with basic plains + some non-basic. I managed to get a vial down and played Mom + Stoneforge to get SoFi -I had the Batterskull in my opening hand plus another land. This allowed me to get batterskull out. My non-basic got hit with another Wasteland. I played the land from my hand to get SoFi out, and got hit with another wasteland. Drew another non-basic and equipped SoFi to Batterskull for the game.
G2: An early Rest in Peace + Aether Vial allowed me to use my Wastelands aggressively and close the game out with a similar creature sequence to game 1.
Round 3: Titian Post (might have been mono green) - Win
G1: My opening hand was Thalia, Revoker, some lands (including a port) and maybe a Stoneforge Mystic = Keep. On turn 2 my opponent played two expedition maps after only playing snow-covered forests. I quickly deployed revoker and proceeded to beat down. Towards the end of this game my opponent had mana to resolve Ugin and exile all my white permanents. This left me with Vial on 3 (Mirran Crusader in hand), Revoker on the board and a Sword. I EOT played the Mirran Crusader off of the vial and my opponent scooped.
G2: I ran into a bad spot where I had Magus out, Council's Judgement in hand and only one active white source. I wonder if we should only board Council's Judgement in when we board Magus out - Thoughts? My opponent closed this game out with double attacking Primeval Titan.
G3: Mulliganed and saw Revoker on the scry. I kept a hand with vial + Magus. I opened with vial and on my next turn wasted my opponents first land which was a Cloudpost. I got the vial up to 3 and passed when my opponent had Cloudpost + Windswept Heath. My opponet played a Glimmerpost and I responeded to the trigger by tapping my Vial. Opponent let the trigger resolve and I dropped the Magus turning off the Windswept Heath. Obviously I half expected this sequence to work but it seemed like the optimal time to try it. From there I had a hand of 3 Flickerwisps and beat down.
Round 4: Burn - Lost
G1: Lost to Goblin Guide and Swiftspear beatdowns.
G2: won with a Batterskull and 3 Thalias - Wooh!
G3: lost to Fireblast. I screwed up some of my sequencing here. I had a Jitte, Thalia, Karakas, and a Revoker (ran out of cards to board out). I should have played the Jitte on Turn 2 but I played a Revoker. On turn 3 I played Thalia with Karakas up and now had no way of getting the Jitte out and Equipped.
Largely burn has always been terrible matchup. If I were to play in a GP I might throw in 1 CoP Red, but the sideboard feels rather snug at the moment. In this match I cut 2 Magus of the Moon and a Revoker for Sword of War and Peace and 2 Canonists.
I played with the same 75 Barook mentioned earlier including the +1 Revoker -1 Avenger. I agree that 2 Revokers felt thin, and having 3 definitely came through for me today.
Quote:
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Mirran Crusader
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Sword of War and Peace
SB: 3 Fireslinger/Sudden Demise
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
Grats on the finish.
Mangara is overall easier to cast (he works with Cavern and Vial), but I'm still sceptical. Fetched him up once today in the mirror, only to get him Pithing Needle'd immediately (I would have had Karakas in play). :rolleyes: Summoning sickness does matter. He doesn't get taxes by Thalia, though.
I don't see any space for CoP: Red in the current board. Space issues aside, Kor Firewalker might also be nice, but the :w::w: requirement is probably quite heavy for the deck.
I dont think I would play any Chrome Mox unless you are going to have Magus of the Wheel working. I also now think that 4 is too many. I have been clogged up. Chrome Mox is starting to feel crappy.
Played up at my shop yesterday against a guy who had brought 3 legacy decks: we played 30 games, 10 with each (4 pre-board 2play/2draw, 6 post-board 3play/3draw).
I played this build of imperial taxes:
I went 7-3 vs. the Pox deck, 8-2 vs. the Burn deck...Quote:
2 Plains
2 Plateau
3 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
1 Mirran Crusader
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Sword to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
S/B:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sudden Demise
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgement
1 Cataclysm
2 Rest in Peace
2 Pithing Needle
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Enlightened Tutor
But went 3-7 vs. his BUG Delver deck...
He wasn't a great player; but the BUG Delver deck just kept beating me regardless of his play mistakes.
Advice for the match-up? What's important? How would you sideboard given my s/b? How would you change the s/b to be better against the deck?
What exactly gave you trouble? BUG Delver shouldn't be a bad match-up, so I wonder about what went wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by AsmodeusDM
How did you SB?
I have been playing with a Path to Exile in my board for non-basics decks and liking it.
Common problems:
- Deathrite shaman limiting the usefulness of mana denial/magus
- Abrupt Decay destroying critical creatures and vials
- TNN in general; seemingly only answerable post-board CJudgement. [which isn't standard but he was playing 2]
- Card advantage has always been tough with D&T; so getting hit with Hymn or Lili's just wrecked my hand with no meangingful way to recover.