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My experience with Cabal Pit in Junk was that it was alright, but that I rarely fetched it. It's a nice out to a Mirran Crusader or a Mom, but it's a mix of "too slow" a lot of the time (filling your yard) and too unnecessary (if you're untapping with KotR you're often in an ok spot.)
In Junk I had great success with it in a SCG open, I used it to snipe SFMs all day long. I haven't used it recently though.
I'm currently running Maze of Ith as the flex land right now. I took Sigarda out of my main which now makes my curve end at 3. I don't believe cradle is necessary because I don't need a giant green sun zenith anymore (6 CMC for Sigarda). Maze can act as a "removal" land of sorts and work extremely well against fliers. Not to mention, the combat tricks. The only advantage of running Cradle is scooze in my opinion. However, there are enough green sources that scooze shouldn't be an issue to keep their graveyard down once you have stabilized the board. Against the super grindy matchups where they have ton of removal/board sweepers, cradle is the worst. I would rather have maze to hold back their goyf, batterskull, venser, flipped delver, etc. then run the risk of having a land that doesn't tap for mana.
I do agree, however, that Dark Depths combo is too greedy for our mana base. It can already be clunky as it is, and in certain matches it can be very unforgiving should you fetch for the wrong land. Now you're adding a colorless mana and a land that doesn't tap for anything (aside from when a blood moon or urborg is in play). Leave the dark depths combo for the lands decks I say.
Against miracles: Never ever empty your hand! Play your creatures step by step and start beating with one creature at a time. They always have Terminus! Make them use their best card for only 1 creature. I don't know how often I forgot that and my board got terminused... that's a loss. 1 card each turn loses to blue decks.
I see the point of the DD combo.... sad, but indeed a liiitle bit more consistent then. But what about a singleton Cavern of Souls? Great card against miracles, too. To land a 4/4+ Knight safely is huuuge. Against a lot of blue decks. Also Mother and Thalia benefit.
I think it's playable as there are 11+ humans in the deck and with 5 dorks one colorless land more shouldn't hurt that much! Of course it's much better if we play Nobles instead of DR, but I see that these days that's a no-go at some point!
Also, playing no DD combo I would go to 2 Horizon Canopies main. It's so helpful in longer games.
@DD/Stage:
My only reservation is that I'm averaging a free win each event I play in due to DD/Stage. I'm not sure Cradle + something > DD/Stage in the wins department. I totally agree about the mana consistency issues and the on paper arguments. The big upside for me would be running a 4th basic or 8th fetch -- things I really want in my manabase.
I still find DD = Cradle straight up. Cradle in the opener sucks and it's worthless when your board has nothing (ie; tapping Cradle produces no mana). The times my board is empty I tend to lose. Cradle's real upside is mitigating the "I can't play and equip in 1 turn to bury my opponent" situations I've seen myself fall into.
My greatest concern about not running Stage/DD or Maze of Ith is that it seems to change the value one can get out of KOTR. I understand dying before KOTR goes off is a big concern, however, when KOTR is out and Untapping, do those players still win the games that the DD/stage or Maze players win? I would argue that in many cases they wouldn't have the same chance. Is getting a fetch, wasteland, horizon canopy, Grove, bog really that big of an impact on the game, especially when we are losing in fair matches? I think further testing with the deck is the best proof one can give, but it sure seems scary to lower the power level of the Knight.
Been seeing lots of copies of Spirit of the Labyrinth in Junk and DnT. Has anyone done recent testing with the card in this deck against the Treasure Cruise meta? 1 toughness seems like a risk, but if he is unanswered it could make for a lot of dead cards.
Lastly, against UR delver, has anyone tried to play Mom not first to bate other creatures into getting bolted? It has seemed counter intuitive at times not playing her first, but when she lives to see an Untap phase it's really sweet.
I agree, once you drop all the utility lands for Knight then you may as well be playing Loxodon Smiter. Maze is good, but against UR Delver I feel like you'll lose to two Delvers or the classic Pyro swarm.
I think you're misconstruing it by pretending it's grabbing Bog/Karakas that wins with knight. KotR is relevant without Depths because he often swings as a 5/5 or bigger. Because he is huge you normally achieve lethal in the two untaps that Lage requires to setup (and often a third to swing.) Untapping with him means you've basically achieved board control in any scenario where the opponent doesn't have DRS + Goyf or you're facing lethal from Delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strassbaw
You make an assumption that untapping with KotR in a losing board state happens often. In the cases it happens I'd argue that Lage isn't going to save you terribly often (since you'll likely need to untap two-three times.)
As an aside, there's never a good reason to play Smiter, and similarly, if you didn't run KotR, you'd run Goyf. KotR outsize nic fit and goyf and skull, he helps you deal with Dredge/Reanimator/S&T/12-Post. He's a "hatebear" of sorts. Claiming that without Depths he's a terrible 3-drop misses why you run him in the first place. He's not here just to beat, he's here to improve the myriad matches where a timely double-Wasteland, Karakas, (or Bog if you are so inclined) would insta-gib your opponent.
In some situations I also played Dark Depths to make an opponent waste it. If it's on the board they are usually stressed and fear the combo out of nowhere. So they need to do something. The combo then is destroyed but the opponent lost some ressources. Against StP decks I usually boarded DD out anyway. It's difficult to say. I wouldn't say it's not working or bad in maverick, but it requires a glod feeling and some mind games with your opponents. Even if they StP the token you get 20 life and a bigger Knight. It's just dangerous to combo out if the board is small and you don't have something left.
Having DD isn't going to miraculously save you from any losing board state that Legacy can present, but I do think that having the DD option is very valuable, and it can swing some board states in your favor. Against a bunch of Pyromancer tokens, or DnT, or Elves, (the list goes on) a big ass Knight charging into battle just won't win the game fast enough for my liking.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
I will freely admit that even when I run DD, I more frequently skip it and just beat with the Knight after finding X Wastelands/Karakas/Bog/Cabal Pit, but it is not rare to find a game state where going for DD will end the game faster.
You certainly don't NEED to play DD to make Knight good, because Knight is plenty powerful without it. It's just another option you can keep in your wheel house, like Safekeeper is to GSZ, or Sword of Light and Shadow is to Stoneforge.
I agree with this...except KotR is female (she's a nice lady!)Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
When there's a team, I usually dig for wastelands to ensure my opponent can't come back. When KotR is alone, I debate about pulling the DD package -- it really depends upon the situation. Even if I don't go for DD/Stage, KotR is usually kicking so much ass already. Competitive players talk so much smack about her they often forget she's in and around 6/6 for 3 mana.
I've found KotR's role in the delver matchup is typically to fetch wastelands for their few duals. If Delver tosses out Island x2 + Mountain early, I just do my best to race them or keep KotR around to "value" thin the deck while blocking.
Against Miracles, I can't see enough KotRs. They are one of the few cards Miracles panics about -- because KotR has the ability to set up an insta-win in DD/Stage or beat them down a few times.
@Spirit of the Labyrinth:
I'm of the opinion that this card doesn't do enough. Against delver it's literally fodder. I'd much prefer Canonist, which can actually block stuff while limiting spells. Delver also can't 2-for-1 me with Forked Bolt. Spirit is only "strong" against Miracles, where it's 3/1 frame can actually attack.
Yeah, that's a good point. In the beginning I always tried to asemble the combo. That's a big fault. Sometimes just grabbing a Wasteland via Knight is better than setting up the combo. It's very situational and as I said requires some practice and a good feeling. For me it just always felt good to know that the combo exists somewhere in my deck and I theoretically have the opportunity to set it up. For the moment I will keep it in my deck I deck.
Thespians Stage alone also won me games. But copying EoT Dryad Arbor and then swing with Jitte. And if you ever played against another DD deck you will know that copying their DD is very ridiculous :P
I actually got to do that last night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuhl
Made it on turn 4 of turns, and attacked with it on turn 5... but he remembered he had a Karakas in play :( Given the mana available, and turns left, it was the only conceivable route to victory, so I had to gamble that he wouldn't see it.
That's not true actually. I think I can count on my fingers the situations where marit lage DIDN'T save me on a losing position. After that, I see it as an evaluation of the situation, case by case. Sometimes you wasteland them. Sometimes you make the 20/20. I feel like people think that having stage/dd in your list automaticaly means you are leaning on it, when it's simply an option. Sometimes you go for it, other times you just waste them to stone age. sometimes I even fetch my stage and copy my wasteland, and keep them in stone age.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
Also, untaping with knight is relative, as having knight alone on the board doesn't mean you have board control at all actually. Especially not in a world with pyromancers and TNNs and elves. What I can say tho, marit lage is a nice panic option, or a oups i win option (shockingly, sometimes you can just draw it too). It's just that it's not your main plan.
I used to be vocal about stage/dd, and say that it's horrible. after playing it for a few months on mtgo and in paper tournaments, I think i'm never playing without it. In fact, my only problem is trying to understand if I can fit 4 wastelands, craddle, stage and dd in the same list without terrible inconsistancy. And that's the frustrating part, I only own 3 wastelands online, I won't have time to have a good idea about that in time for NJ.
Congrats on your success with Maverick, good luck on GP. I like your list, and i play similar, but with few changes. I have 3 Teegs in my 75, and 2 Choke in my sb. Also I prefer Council Judgement over O-Ring, I think O-Ring is outclassed now by decay and Miracles playing Judgement mainboard. These 3 cards are key cards to beat miracles + 1 Cavern of Souls, if you want to beat Miracles consistenty play these cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by THerzog41
I also like to have 1-2 strong creatures sb to beat decks that board in GY hate to fight KotR. I play Linvala or Thrun.
Also I used to play 1 Fauna Shaman main. 5th Zenith is great, as is ability to find non-green creatures like Canonist.
E-tutor package anyone?? I've played this package a lot, currently on
2 e-tutor
1 engineered explosive
1 Garruck relentless
1 revoker
1 oring
1 path
1 zp
1 Stoney silence
1 cage
1 choke
1 mind break trap
1 dragon claw
1 e-plague
1 canonist
I don't have any GY hate because 2 ooze n 4 drs main. My list is basically herzogs with some edits. Any cards I'm missing or cards I should just cut?
I don't see the significance of some of those bullets. Namely 1x Mindbreak Trap. No offense, I can't see how that's going to save the day.
Why do you play Dragon's Claw and not Warmth?
Assuming you don't have a red spash and no counterspells, warmth should always be the better choice. Also it is harder to remove enchantments than artifacts for a lot of decks.
Especially for Red decks, which is the most important point.Quote:
Originally Posted by HungryMan
Red is good at killing artifacts, but has no way at all to kill enchantments.
This, plus the fact that Warmth is actually the more powerful effect. :cool:
The one thing I have to add right now is that I really do prefer Decay to Path in the sideboard. They're coming in during the same matches where you need extra removal, but vs. Delver decks you're effectively playing Path as a 2 mana spell already to avoid Daze. Path doesn't really have a major advantage there, but Decay is much more useful in other matchups where you want to hit something other than a creature.
Sadly I'm not headed to NJ, but if I were in the current meta I'd probably side something like:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Warmth
3 Zealous Persecution
1 Choke
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Abrupt Decay
I feel like that's a pretty good start, with some debate between ZP #3 and Tutor #2. Though I'm generally not a huge fan of Tutor-boards, right now it seems like enchantments are very strong (nothing in UR Delver or Burn handles them). It's mostly dead vs. fast combo, but that's a weakness of the archetype. If we can go first and lead Thoughtseize into Thalia, then storm and belcher are doable. Otherwise we'll just die on turn 0.