[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

i play 2 ad nauseams in my ant deck and i really like it - but for another reason ->burning wish is such a horrible card in ant so i have to increase the business spell count and the second ad nauseam is perfect to increase the powerboost on turn 1-2.

but back to TES: once i also suggested the second ad nauseam (but instead of empty the warrens).ad nauseam in your opening hand is just brillliant and is exactly what the deck want to do on turn 1 - slam the ugly card on the table to go crazy.
so for me it makes perfect sense.
haven't really tested it so far so if you have some testing results please let me know.

I've updated my TES sideboarding guide with Bryant's new list. Message me and I will send it to you! To prevent cluttering the discussion I won't post it here. Cheers :)

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Originally Posted by BrettF

I've updated my TES sideboarding guide with Bryant's new list. Message me and I will send it to you! To prevent cluttering the discussion I won't post it here. Cheers :)

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Is there a current discussion going? For me, the preboarded IT is a matter of your metagame and the only topic ongoing.

Overall, I think your last SB guide was fine (we discussed some parts via Facebook) and I guess some people prefer the clear +/- boarding advice given over Bryant's general strategic directions given in the OP (which I prefer as even upcoming printings not named can be fit in the strategic corset). I would prefer it to find it's place here.

Just pointing out, many of the early " Feature matches" on the OP are no longer active links.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Just pointing out, many of the early " Feature matches" on the OP are no longer active links.

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Perhaps best to mention this in PM to Bryant.
He does follow the discussion here, but not as closely as he used to, so he might miss a remark like this. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Perhaps best to mention this in PM to Bryant.
He does follow the discussion here, but not as closely as he used to, so he might miss a remark like this. :wink:

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I messaged Jupiter this morning to find out what happened, it appears that UStream may take down inactive account videos after a certain amount of time.

As for not following, I pay close attention. I just don't comment as much anymore because I feel like I have different opinions than many of you, I'm at a point where I feel like I don't need to constantly defend my decisions or choices.

For example, you're all freaking out over siding out Probe against burn. I think it's perfectly acceptable, it's a card that helps their game plan that's relatively low impact. I understand it's synergies with Cabal Therapy or it's ability to add a storm for an early Empty the Warrens. But it's actually not that good in the match-up, Duress hitting Mind Break Trap or Pyrostatic Pillar is more important. Cabal Ritual has more value as it makes Past in Flames a more lucrative option as our life-total will dwindle quickly and Burn can just race goblins. As for the lack of synergy with Therapy, we were likely going to name Eidelon anyway or if they don't have it in play Mind Break Trap. The card will hit the same problematic issues whether or not Gitaxian Probe is in the deck.

I just don't have the effort to repeatedly tell people how to play the deck or that their small change from my list is slightly worse in the grand scheme of things. I just don't care if anyone kills themselves more often than I do because they think running two Ad Nauseam and Empty is a good idea. I'm constantly working on the best list possible, if anyone disagrees with a change I make, they're not forced to do the same. But I weigh my changes heavily and if I make them, they're for good reason.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

As for not following, I pay close attention. I just don't comment as much anymore because I feel like I have different opinions than many of you, I'm at a point where I feel like I don't need to constantly defend my decisions or choices.

I just don't have the effort to repeatedly tell people how to play the deck or that their small change from my list is slightly worse in the grand scheme of things. I just don't care if anyone kills themselves more often than I do because they think running two Ad Nauseam and Empty is a good idea. I'm constantly working on the best list possible, if anyone disagrees with a change I make, they're not forced to do the same. But I weigh my changes heavily and if I make them, they're for good reason.

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Wouldn't you having a different opinion than the rest of us mean that the discussion benefits from having you commenting more and not less? Not even from a standpoint of winning over the other person to your side, but just engendering a more complete view of the issue. For example, I read the first TES thread all the way from '06, (I read all the post in this thread, working my way through all the threads) and there were debates about cards like Trinket Mage or the balance of lands vs. Chrome Mox (back then you were at 10 lands/4 Mox, now youre at 12 lands/2 Mox, with Cabal Rituals in both builds, its actually really interesting to look at how much changes/stays the same over time). These discussions often didnt end cleanly or simply, but people were compelled to put some detail and thought into all the viewpoints. Regardless of which one is ultimately correct, that puts so much information out there and can really only improve the overall design. I don't even necessarily think you have to try to refute one option or defend another, if you put an idea out there and someone else puts out something different, the people who actually care will go out and test or think on those ideas.

On a different note, I wanted to bring Diminishing Returns to people's attention. With Infernal Tutor in the SB, I understand that Diminishing Returns appears somewhat unnecessary as Tutor -> Ad Nauseam can win a game as opposed to just giving you a Timetwister sort of effect. While Returns might just be seen as a good card in a discard-heavy meta, what I want to note is how good it can be in combo matchups. I run into a lot of storm and dredge on MTGO, and for a while I was looking for a way to put myself ahead in those matchups. The problem I was having was cards like Surgical Extraction, Telemin Performance and the like are too narrow for my taste, and anything I have to maindeck just makes the deck diluted, so it can be a hindrance. It's really hard to make an already fast deck faster (marginal cost vs stability) and trying to slow down both decks with silver-bullets feels like a misalignment of roles in the matchup. And then I just looked at Diminishing Returns and realized it was everything I was looking for in that sort of matchup:

If you're playing the SB'd Infernal Tutor, you've probably encountered the frustration of knowing that Wish > Tutor > Ad Nauseam just isn't as strong a line against other combos when you either need 9 total mana (not impossible, but it is a high amount in a matchup with discard spells) or need to somehow dodge the giant signal for the opponent to throw a discard spell at you if you try to set up with Wish. With Returns in the side, you can maindeck all your Tutors for maximum threat density and still have productive lines with your Wishes, since you can either discard with Thoughtseize or spin Diminishing Returns for cards. The ability to destroy ANT's hand-sculpting or reset Dredge's graveyard while pulling yourself out if you were behind from opposing discard spells is great stuff, especially when you can make your maindeck more threat-dense with 8 total tutors while you do it. If you're running 4 MD Tutor and 3 MD Chrome Mox, the Returns can be even better since you have a greater chance to continue your combo with more Chrome Mox (it is worth noting that Returns obviously does conflict with Cabal Ritual, though Cabal Ritual is fantastic pre-Returns, for the same reason that it's good pre-Nauseam).

Diminishing Returns also has some nice interactions in lots on non-blue matchups, which is what seems to have concerned a lot of people during the switch to SB Infernal Tutor and MD Cabal Ritual. Has anyone else been missing Diminishing Returns since they removed it? I think, in much the same way you might add another Xantid for SnT-heavy metas, Diminishing Returns is a wonderful card for Storm/discard heavy meta.

I've never needed Dimishing Returns. I could win throught other ways and against Storm/discards, we're faster than all of them, so we needn't use Dimishing Returns to recover our hand. That's the reason I agree with that change.

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Originally Posted by Boghald

I've never needed Dimishing Returns. I could win throught other ways and against Storm/discards, we're faster than all of them, so we needn't use Dimishing Returns to recover our hand. That's the reason I agree with that change.

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In other words: Dim.Ret. was bad in your opinion because you simply didn't understand it's use (see bolded part).

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

Wouldn't you having a different opinion than the rest of us mean that the discussion benefits from having you commenting more and not less? Not even from a standpoint of winning over the other person to your side, but just engendering a more complete view of the issue. For example, I read the first TES thread all the way from '06, (I read all the post in this thread, working my way through all the threads) and there were debates about cards like Trinket Mage or the balance of lands vs. Chrome Mox (back then you were at 10 lands/4 Mox, now youre at 12 lands/2 Mox, with Cabal Rituals in both builds, its actually really interesting to look at how much changes/stays the same over time). These discussions often didnt end cleanly or simply, but people were compelled to put some detail and thought into all the viewpoints. Regardless of which one is ultimately correct, that puts so much information out there and can really only improve the overall design. I don't even necessarily think you have to try to refute one option or defend another, if you put an idea out there and someone else puts out something different, the people who actually care will go out and test or think on those ideas.

On a different note, I wanted to bring Diminishing Returns to people's attention. With Infernal Tutor in the SB, I understand that Diminishing Returns appears somewhat unnecessary as Tutor -> Ad Nauseam can win a game as opposed to just giving you a Timetwister sort of effect. While Returns might just be seen as a good card in a discard-heavy meta, what I want to note is how good it can be in combo matchups. I run into a lot of storm and dredge on MTGO, and for a while I was looking for a way to put myself ahead in those matchups. The problem I was having was cards like Surgical Extraction, Telemin Performance and the like are too narrow for my taste, and anything I have to maindeck just makes the deck diluted, so it can be a hindrance. It's really hard to make an already fast deck faster (marginal cost vs stability) and trying to slow down both decks with silver-bullets feels like a misalignment of roles in the matchup. And then I just looked at Diminishing Returns and realized it was everything I was looking for in that sort of matchup:

If you're playing the SB'd Infernal Tutor, you've probably encountered the frustration of knowing that Wish > Tutor > Ad Nauseam just isn't as strong a line against other combos when you either need 9 total mana (not impossible, but it is a high amount in a matchup with discard spells) or need to somehow dodge the giant signal for the opponent to throw a discard spell at you if you try to set up with Wish. With Returns in the side, you can maindeck all your Tutors for maximum threat density and still have productive lines with your Wishes, since you can either discard with Thoughtseize or spin Diminishing Returns for cards. The ability to destroy ANT's hand-sculpting or reset Dredge's graveyard while pulling yourself out if you were behind from opposing discard spells is great stuff, especially when you can make your maindeck more threat-dense with 8 total tutors while you do it. If you're running 4 MD Tutor and 3 MD Chrome Mox, the Returns can be even better since you have a greater chance to continue your combo with more Chrome Mox (it is worth noting that Returns obviously does conflict with Cabal Ritual, though Cabal Ritual is fantastic pre-Returns, for the same reason that it's good pre-Nauseam).

Diminishing Returns also has some nice interactions in lots on non-blue matchups, which is what seems to have concerned a lot of people during the switch to SB Infernal Tutor and MD Cabal Ritual. Has anyone else been missing Diminishing Returns since they removed it? I think, in much the same way you might add another Xantid for SnT-heavy metas, Diminishing Returns is a wonderful card for Storm/discard heavy meta.

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This wall of text has basically 2 topics. First, if you participate long enough in this thread and the board overall, you'll realize that topics and discussions are repetitive and as I complain every once in a while, I explain the same shit over and over and over in this thread and grew tired of it. I'm sick of writing thousands of words as a response to some one-liners and lists posted without elaboration, therefore I tend to write short, edgy and douchy comments at times as I'm unwilling to invest more time for writing than people do for thinking and/or testing. I can imagine that Bryant is even more fed up of it and therefore, if you want him to participate in a discussion, pick up a fresh topic and invest gray matter.

Which brings me to the second part of your post which is Dim.Ret. in regards to storm mirrors and Dredge. Returns is horrible outside of turn 1's here as ANT will destoy you if you can't kill them the same turn and because they'll also likely have Flusterstorms in the SB. You have no Chance to win an attrition war against 8 "Black Lotus" a more stable manabase and cheaper access to a flurry of discard after your "Draw7, go!". While resetting Dredge during it's turn 2's and 3's is nice in theory, the problem is rooted in the possible Army of Zombies during those turns and numerous Cabal Therapies aimed at you, dismembering your hand and stripping you from all options to cast Diminishing Returns.

You'll see, that in both cases you picked for Returns to shine, it is actually a bad card if cast turn 2 or later and it stays the typical turn 1 value-play it ever was and I mentioned dozen of times in the history of this thread. Nothing more. Is this enough to cluster a SB slot? Personal choice


Edit 2:
I lol'd at the bolded part. Why does this pop up again and again: A deck with discard dismembers your hand, people claim that they SOMEHOW STILL HAVE ENOUGH MANA to cast DimRet and REFILL THEIR OPPONENTS HAND WITH MORE DISCARD/THREATS and think that puts them into a favorable position?



Edit 3:
Is that one of the edgy, douchy posts I mentioned? Dunno

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Which brings me to the second part of your post which is Dim.Ret. in regards to storm mirrors and Dredge. Returns is horrible outside of turn 1's here as ANT will destoy you if you can't kill them the same turn and because they'll also likely have Flusterstorms in the SB. You have no Chance to win an attrition war against 8 "Black Lotus" a more stable manabase and cheaper access to a flurry of discard after your "Draw7, go!". While resetting Dredge during it's turn 2's and 3's is nice in theory, the problem is rooted in the possible Army of Zombies during those turns and numerous Cabal Therapies aimed at you, dismembering your hand and stripping you from all options to cast Diminishing Returns.

You'll see, that in both cases you picked for Returns to shine, it is actually a bad card if cast turn 2 or later and it stays the typical turn 1 value-play it ever was and I mentioned dozen of times in the history of this thread. Nothing more. Is this enough to cluster a SB slot? Personal choice


Edit 2:
I lol'd at the bolded part. Why does this pop up again and again: A deck with discard dismembers your hand, people claim that they SOMEHOW STILL HAVE ENOUGH MANA to cast DimRet and REFILL THEIR OPPONENTS HAND WITH MORE DISCARD/THREATS and think that puts them into a favorable position?

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The scenario I cited regarding discard was about how Wish > Infernal > Ad Nauseam is so vulnerable to discard. It's not devastating like Thoughtseize into Hymn to Tourach, but you are way behind if your only line is through Burning Wish and you're playing against possible Duress/Therapy. If you're hit by discard beforehand, it's going to be very hard to go ahead and get that 9 mana, and if you go "Burning Wish for Infernal Tutor, go" it's a huge tell for their discard and makes their Cabal Therapy 100% accurate. By having Dim. Ret in the sb you can do something with Wish + 6-8 mana, you can also play all your Infernal Tutors main deck after board without turning all your Wishes into less productive cards.

In my big paragraph about Dim Ret, you bolded my reference to it interacting with discard, but the main point mentioned before and after it is threat density. I can go in with 8 tutors that need only either 6 or 7 mana minimum to go do stuff, instead of 7 that need 7 or 9. Logically, by increasing the number of tutors and lowering the resources needed for them to be useful, I would then have more opening hands on average that just go off without giving the opponent a chance to touch me. It's not as though the fringe benefits of resetting GY or hands that i noted are the primary allure, it's just about having more combinations of cards on any given turn that let me play some bomb of a spell. The opportunity to foil a t1 Breakthrough/Ponder or strand them on a less-than-great 7 is just a little bonus that makes the situation potentially better.

You say yourself Returns is a value turn 1 play and in a combo mirror where both players are trying to be as fast as possible, isn't increasing the number of big turn 1 plays just the sort of thing you'd want to do? Roughly 25% of the matches I've played this month were against Storm combo (3 of which were tes mirrors) or Dredge. When combo has that much of the meta it seems only naturally to try and grab an edge against those matches. Cards like Flusterstorm, Surgical Extraction and the like just felt too narrow or reactive, whereas Diminishing Returns is something you can be very aggressive with and seems to fit TES better.

I do get the logic that TES is one of the fastest combos, and that nut hands just happen on either side of the matchup, and with those 2 facts combined it becomes really difficult to have any worthwhile considerations for combo matchups specifically. However, I don't want to be flipping coins against 25% of my meta if I can avoid it. I don't mean to overvalue the card, and if anyone thinks of better tech I'll be down to try it, it's just a frustrating situation and I'm looking for solutions

I have never needed dinishing since I cutted it. I usualy always could grab pif and win on the same manner. Cabal ritual does miracles.

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

The scenario I cited regarding discard was about how Wish > Infernal > Ad Nauseam is so vulnerable to discard. It's not devastating like Thoughtseize into Hymn to Tourach, but you are way behind if your only line is through Burning Wish and you're playing against possible Duress/Therapy. If you're hit by discard beforehand, it's going to be very hard to go ahead and get that 9 mana, and if you go "Burning Wish for Infernal Tutor, go" it's a huge tell for their discard and makes their Cabal Therapy 100% accurate. By having Dim. Ret in the sb you can do something with Wish + 6-8 mana, you can also play all your Infernal Tutors main deck after board without turning all your Wishes into less productive cards.

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You asume that the discard aimed at you isn't stripping the Wish in the first place here. 9 mana in the combo mirror is hardcore but there is still the option to run cards like Bribery or Telemin in the side over Returns as it is possible to board in the SB infernal. Diminishing Returns remains a turn 1 gamble card which can even help you opponent after he mulled or such. It's a nice tool to recover from a mulligan or a Chrome Mox, but tight play and keeps do this too while DimRet just resets the game in most cases ... and nearly as often: not in your favor. As non-blue or non-black decks are no longer existing in Legacy (minor hyperbole), DimRet is a miserable storm-engine now and left as a risky walk-right-into-FoW/Daze/Pierce-and-then-still-not-win-on-it's-own-card, refilling your opponents hand with either counterspells or discard. For my taste, you can't argue for DimRet with the help of combo decks especially due to randomness dealing a low blow to yourself at times.

The last fatal DimRet backlash, I witnessed was at BoM8 as Sawatarix casted DimRet and passed against Sloshthedark's ANT.

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In my big paragraph about Dim Ret, you bolded my reference to it interacting with discard, but the main point mentioned before and after it is threat density. I can go in with 8 tutors that need only either 6 or 7 mana minimum to go do stuff, instead of 7 that need 7 or 9. Logically, by increasing the number of tutors and lowering the resources needed for them to be useful, I would then have more opening hands on average that just go off without giving the opponent a chance to touch me. It's not as though the fringe benefits of resetting GY or hands that i noted are the primary allure, it's just about having more combinations of cards on any given turn that let me play some bomb of a spell. The opportunity to foil a t1 Breakthrough/Ponder or strand them on a less-than-great 7 is just a little bonus that makes the situation potentially better.

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Again: I sure see your topic of mana in the combo mirror and I agree that you might want cheaper options than the 9-mana-line, but I can't see Returns being the answer to the question of "what is the cheapest sorcery blowout to play in side against combo?". However, the answer is pretty simple: Thoughtseize

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You say yourself Returns is a value turn 1 play and in a combo mirror where both players are trying to be as fast as possible, isn't increasing the number of big turn 1 plays just the sort of thing you'd want to do? Roughly 25% of the matches I've played this month were against Storm combo (3 of which were tes mirrors) or Dredge. When combo has that much of the meta it seems only naturally to try and grab an edge against those matches. Cards like Flusterstorm, Surgical Extraction and the like just felt too narrow or reactive, whereas Diminishing Returns is something you can be very aggressive with and seems to fit TES better.

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The first sentence is correct to the point where you have to ask what a "big turn 1 Play" actually is. Is it being on the play and giving your non-FoW-opponent a random, crappy hands without mana? It is. Is it being on the draw (with your opponent potentially mulled before) against a deck with FoW or it being able to fling discard at YOUR new, random 7 or it being able to combo you out turn 2? Not in the slightest. DimRet is an equalizer and situations in which this might be desired became too rare to reserve a slot. Moreover, an equalizer isn't what I consider the best "big turn 1 play".

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I do get the logic that TES is one of the fastest combos, and that nut hands just happen on either side of the matchup, and with those 2 facts combined it becomes really difficult to have any worthwhile considerations for combo matchups specifically. However, I don't want to be flipping coins against 25% of my meta if I can avoid it. I don't mean to overvalue the card, and if anyone thinks of better tech I'll be down to try it, it's just a frustrating situation and I'm looking for solutions

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The SB discard spell is just there for these situations, where you have to stall your opponents combo. If you want to blow out your 25% storm meta, use Telemin as it was a viable meta choice in Berlin as well during it's time.

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I always have a draw-7 in my board regardless of what everybody here is trying. I just had too many times where I had just one Wish and no way to win with Past in Flames, while my opponent had lethal on the board. I know this isn't that way Returns should be used, but I'd rather have the option than to have a guaranteed loss there.

Infernal on side helps cover many of these situations, but not all of them. The new list plays just two Cabal Ritual to try and give us the wealth of mana needed for a Wish->Infernal win. I don't seem to draw hands very often that can actually do that. Returns with two mana floating is a fine alternative then. Not against counterspell.dec of course, but there's Jund, D&T, Pox, Burn and I know not what else out there that I also have to beat with my awkward hands.

Funny thing: if I can squeeze it in, I am also still running Ill-Gotten Gains. I know sideboard space is limited, but during my games I often find that having a flexible Wish board just feels good. Terrible argument, I know, but if I feel uncertain and uncomfortable, I am more prone to making mistakes. And let's face it, a well tuned list means nothing if you blunder away your games. Success factor nr. 1 in TES has always been the skill of its pilot.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

In other words: Dim.Ret. was bad in your opinion because you simply didn't understand it's use (see bolded part).

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I've said that beacuse he defended that it was great to recover hands, not because i think that ¬¬ Read his post again.

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Originally Posted by Boghald

I've said that beacuse he defended that it was great to recover hands, not because i think that ¬¬ Read his post again.

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I just saw the topic in 3 different posts covered before I posted, so I felt like dropping a line

Alright, I will give Telemin some more testing. Between that and Thoughtseize, I can probably keep up with Storm just fine. I'm a bit irked by Telemin being worthless against Dredge, would it be overkill to run Bribery and Telemin to really come down on all the combo decks?.

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

Alright, I will give Telemin some more testing. Between that and Thoughtseize, I can probably keep up with Storm just fine. I'm a bit irked by Telemin being worthless against Dredge, would it be overkill to run Bribery and Telemin to really come down on all the combo decks?.

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I don't see a reason to run both. If you expect 12-Post, Forgemaster MUD, Reanimator or SneakShow, Bribery is a save bet. Telemin is a risky gamble and even more in storm postboard games as peeps board in some Confidants, Pyromancer or shit to prevent that angle. Both are however pointless against most Dredge variants. I still think what IF you are looking for a wishable Kill-condition in the combo-mirror, both options are more viable than DimRet atm.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I don't see a reason to run both. If you expect 12-Post, Forgemaster MUD, Reanimator or SneakShow, Bribery is a save bet. Telemin is a risky gamble and even more in storm postboard games as peeps board in some Confidants, Pyromancer or shit to prevent that angle. Both are however pointless against most Dredge variants. I still think what IF you are looking for a wishable Kill-condition in the combo-mirror, both options are more viable than DimRet atm.

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I'll try them each out then. The frustrating thing is that storm is more likely, but telemin is risky, whereas bribery is a sure-hit but i'm less likely to see decks itd be good against (although that may change as SnT is the next MOCS promo), so the EV of both seems fairly close, lol.

I'm still not impressed by either Telemin Performace nor Bribery.
I know if you cast it against reanimator or sneakshow it's a great feeling but the card isn't a necessity because most of the time you can stil combo off via past in flames or infernal->ad nauseam or whatever.
And even if you have a fatty (say griselbrand/emrakul) the win is not guaranteed and that's probably the reason why i really dislike bribery/tp in the deck.
There is nothing worse than a combodeck which can loose after executing the combo.
(logically i'm also not a big fan of decks like reanimator or sneakshow for the same reason)

instead, i would increase the copies of real important spells in the sideboard such as abrupt decay (up to 3) , xantid swarms (up to 3),...

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Originally Posted by sawatarix

I'm still not impressed by either Telemin Performace nor Bribery.
I know if you cast it against reanimator or sneakshow it's a great feeling but the card isn't a necessity because most of the time you can stil combo off via past in flames or infernal->ad nauseam or whatever.
And even if you have a fatty (say griselbrand/emrakul) the win is not guaranteed and that's probably the reason why i really dislike bribery/tp in the deck.
There is nothing worse than a combodeck which can loose after executing the combo.
(logically i'm also not a big fan of decks like reanimator or sneakshow for the same reason)

instead, i would increase the copies of real important spells in the sideboard such as abrupt decay (up to 3) , xantid swarms (up to 3),...

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PIF needs at least 3 DR/RoF, Wish into infernal into AN is 9 mana ... It's all a matter of speed.

P.S.: if you draw 14 cards with Griselbrand and still cannot win, I would ask myself some serious questions.