All B/R update speculation.

Okay, my turn again. Can't we just ban Ponder, and Preordain? Then your "cantrip cartel" would be reduced to what? Brainstorm and Opt? You know it's bad when Miracles starts running x4 Ponder, and not just RUG. Now it's Miracles, Delver, and combo all running x3-4 Ponder. That's okay?

I see Darken replied above. Yeah, it is damn good, but it would be a lot worse if you had to run it alongside cantrips that weren't Ponder, Preordain, or Probe as those cantrips make a synergestic enviroment where you have 8-16 super cantrips. Cantrip based decks run on the fact that there are many good and cheap cantrips printed, and to think that Brainstorm is only amazing and cheap cantrip printed is fallacy. Once again, 29/32 Ponders in the top 8. If that isn't turning your head, but Brainstorm is, I don't know what to say. Both should be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kanti

Okay, my turn again. Can't we just ban Ponder, and Preordain? Then your "cantrip cartel" would be reduced to what? Brainstorm and Opt? You know it's bad when Miracles starts running x4 Ponder, and not just RUG. Now it's Miracles, Delver, and combo all running x3-4 Ponder. That's okay?

I see Darken replied above. Yeah, it is damn good, but it would be a lot worse if you had to run it alongside cantrips that weren't Ponder, Preordain, or Probe as those cantrips make a synergestic enviroment where you have 8-16 super cantrips. Cantrip based decks run on the fact that there are many good and cheap cantrips printed, and to think that Brainstorm is only amazing and cheap cantrip printed is fallacy. Once again, 29/32 Ponders in the top 8. If that isn't turning your head, but Brainstorm is, I don't know what to say. Both should be.

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But then you are simply banning some weaker cards that do a similar (but generally weaker) thing rather than simply banning the main offender.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Brainstorm is worlds more powerful and ubiquitous than Earthcraft, Mind Twist, Black Vise, Survival of the Fittest, and probably Frantic Search (especially if Brainstorm were not legal).

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The thing is, most people who see inconsistencies in alcohol and pot legality prefer to legalize weed, rather than criminalize alcohol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scott

The thing is, most people who see inconsistencies in alcohol and pot legality prefer to legalize weed, rather than criminalize alcohol.

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This is exactly how I feel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Darkenslight

1) In Discard matches, you can effectively 'hide' your key cards whilst on the play;
2) Brainstorm is the most efficient tempo card in the formet, even taking into account the possibility of locking yourself for two turns if you whiff on your needs.

It is head and shoulders above everything else in the formet in terms of quality.

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I completely agree that Brainstorm is a better card than Thought Scour (or any other card in Legacy - though there will always be a "best card"). nedleeds was arguing that Brainstorm is better fuel for delve, which is absurd and a demonstration of his pure irrationality regarding cantrips.

There was no argument. I presented a top 8 with 16 DTT and zero Thought Scour, and 32 Brainstorms, pairing DTT with Brainstorm is obviously superior to pairing with Thought scour. You opined about 'broken' delve spells none of which touch or touched in the case of cruise the usage rate of Brainstorm but yet dont consider brainstorm broken. You seem to be unable to confront my earlier question.

This thread is getting heated. Calm down and keep the discussion civil. That includes you too, nedleeds.

I'm leaning with nedleeds here. Brainstorm is just the best cantrip period. That's why it works so well with delve spells, its additional synergy. thought scour and probe aren't as powerful as brainstorm even though they have better delve synergy with DTT. The reason everyone plays brainstorm instead in decks with DTT is because its well umm.. amazing, and it just happens to have additional synergy with DTT. Probe and thought scour as stand alone cards don't hold a candle to BS. You can keep a one lander with BS and DTT, you can't keep a one lander with probe and DTT or thought Scour and DTT- this is just a corner case example but the point is to highlight the versatility of BS.

Yeah, Brainstorm is a better card. Here's ned's argument though:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Thought Scour is pretty good. Brainstorm enables Delve cards far more than even Thought Scour otherwise it would be played at higher levels. Brainstorm is a far better enabler for delve than Salvage style cards and there is indisputable proof in that it's 100%, 32/32 in a top 8 with 16 DTT (50%) and there are 0 Thought Scours.

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To get back to my point, the actually important thing about Salvage is that it only hits creatures or lands, which makes chaining cantrips or digging counterspells impossible. This makes the Salvage less powerful in blue decks than in fair decks. Legacy needs that kind of cantrip for B/G/W because if you give those colors that type of card selection ability at a powerful enough manacost, blue's card advantage is diminished without making the format less consistent as a whole.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iGrok

Yeah, discard isn't an effective way of dealing with the stack, but it does, to some degree, prevent the blue mage from interfering. What black does get is raw card advantage (Hymn, Lili, Therapy). It's okay for different colors to interact more or less with the stack as long as that advantage is made up for elsewhere. Otherwise, we get what you said - clones of blue decks in every color.

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Discard is more effective in helping a blue mage abuse the stack unimpeded than in preventing them from doing so. Duress is used ONLY by blue mages looking to run a ton of spells through the stack for a quick win. Thoughtseize is mainly used by blue mages looking to clear removal or counters out of the opponent's hand so they can play a win-con and win unimpeded.

Black discard has joined Tarmogoyf as a mostly blue asset.

That's not exactly a new point. There is a reason that Underground has been the most expensive dual for years.

Since my post got deleted: Happy 420!!!

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

This thread is getting heated. Calm down and keep the discussion civil. That includes you too, nedleeds.

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http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...19/226/8ca.jpg

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Originally Posted by Blastoderm

Delver is the problem... not brainstorm.

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+ TNN
+ Snappy
+ V. Clique

All four of them are the problem.

The more people start to play Dig Through Time now, the more I think it should have been banned alongside TC, similiar to Modern.

The card is just plain dumb and not far away in terms of powerlevel from TC. I wouldn't be suprised if we saw a significant increase soon when people realize how busted it is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ahg113

+ TNN
+ Snappy
+ V. Clique

All four of them are the problem.

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Snappy and Clique are fine, expect they are abominations of the color pie (at least Clique).

As for cards that ruined the format, I'd say:
- Delver (the starting point where everything went to shit)
- Griselbrand
- S&T (due to the stupid shit Wizards printed)
- Terminus
- TNN

They all sucked the fun out of the format.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barook

The more people start to play Dig Through Time now, the more I think it should have been banned alongside TC, similiar to Modern.

The card is just plain dumb and not far away in terms of powerlevel from TC. I wouldn't be suprised if we saw a significant increase soon when people realize how busted it is.

They all sucked the fun out of the format.

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Concepts such as fun and beauty are very subjective. In Magic, does fun equate to winning? Can you win frequently but still not having fun?

Wizard had plenty of chances to do something about Brainstorm, Delver, Show and Tell, yet Wizard didn't. The only new kid on the block is DTT. This rise of Omni-tell will make GP Lille more important than ever.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barook

The more people start to play Dig Through Time now, the more I think it should have been banned alongside TC, similiar to Modern.

The card is just plain dumb and not far away in terms of powerlevel from TC. I wouldn't be suprised if we saw a significant increase soon when people realize how busted it is.


Snappy and Clique are fine, expect they are abominations of the color pie (at least Clique).

As for cards that ruined the format, I'd say:
- Delver (the starting point where everything went to shit)
- Griselbrand
- S&T (due to the stupid shit Wizards printed)
- Terminus
- TNN

They all sucked the fun out of the format.

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I agree here. DTT is fucking nuts. Watching Julian stream the new Omniscience deck earlier was insane. Then Not having to run another clunky spell like ETI makes it really dumb.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I agree here. DTT is fucking nuts. Watching Julian stream the new Omniscience deck earlier was insane. Then Not having to run another clunky spell like ETI makes it really dumb.

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It's funny to look back into the Spoiler thread and see the people making fun of my statement "That DTT will replace Enter the Infinite in OmniTell".

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

It's pretty much the purpose of this thread. Ignore me. Or come up with a cogent argument against my statement:

Brainstorm is a significantly more powerful card than cards currently on the Legacy banned list. Even if some of those cards were to be unbanned Brainstorm would drown them in usage rate. Brainstorm has achieved 100% saturation in Legacies highest level event(s). Other cards have been banned with less saturation (Survival, Mystical). Thus Brainstorm should be banned.

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There was a podcast shortly after the Fate Reforged bannings where Chapin was discussing what happened in each format (if someone remembers what it's called, please post a link) and he pointed out that the entire Legacy format "hinges on the illusion that Brainstorm is a reasonable card". I agree with that assessment. I'm willing to buy into the illusion and keep playing because I don't think that Legacy without Brainstorm would be substantially better than Legacy with Brainstorm, and I certainly don't think that as many people would be playing. You may disagree, but many people don't; I know I significantly cut back on Vintage after Brainstorm got restricted as did more than one person I know. So yes, based on power level, Brainstorm should be banned. Based on what's good for the format, it shouldn't. I think the same thing about a number of cards on the banned list right now, but that's not what we're discussing. Even though we disagree about what's best for the format, surely we can agree that Brainstorm is incredibly unlikely to ever be banned and that WotC wants it this way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

It's funny to look back into the Spoiler thread and see the people making fun of my statement "That DTT will replace Enter the Infinite in OmniTell".

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Another wonderful example of not trusting the crowd.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I think Dig Through Time should replace Enter the Infinity in OmniTell as it's never really dead. Guess it's awesome in any S&T deck

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ellomdian

... that can afford to wait until it has 5+ cards in the GY until it goes off.

I think people are seriously underestimating how hard it is to 'accidentally' get delve fodder in the GY early. Fetch, Discard to Thoughtseize, Ponder, Brainstorm, Spell Pierce - typically at that point I want to be killing them, not digging. If you want a Tutor, run Intuition...

Know what Treasure Cruise is? It's AK, at Sorcery speed - an Engine-esque card that just draws more cards. Don't get me wrong, I would love to live in a world (for a while) where AK was the Bee's Knees in Legacy, but it requires too much setup, and the decks that benefit most from it aren't very strong currently.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by dune2k

Are you kidding or did you name the wrong card?
Everything else does not make sense.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

How is a format where everybody effectively kills by turn 4 better than the current format?

I'd offer a competing vision...
The way to make the game better is to lessen the consistency for everybody and widen the playable card pool in the process. Then you wind up with games that can go over quickly with great draws but that also can stall to the opponent's denial or to their own draw petering out for awhile. You get real value out of 4cc and even 5cc cards because the game isn't guaranteed to go over before they become playable. You don't have to win the game with any play over 3cc as is generally the case now.

It's the huge emphasis on the first 2 or 3 turns that makes Legacy such a boring repetitive experience at this point.

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This is extremely well-written post and I really like it.

While I'm a huge fan of short games - contrary to what most of the true causals like -, the speed is unbearable today. Moreover, lots if what I liked about Magic , e.g. big dumb creatures or amazing effects in cmc4 range (Mystic Enforcer, Armageddoneddon, Cataclysm, Smokestack, etc.) are either unplayable anymore, or are limited to 8Tombs deck. But if you're erious about MtG and play deck with Sol lands, then you definitely play Show & Tel, not geddon and such.

It'll be interesting to see a bit slower format, one where there is abit more variance both speaking of decks, and speaking of gaming experience, something more akin to QL Magic or the old Legacy back in cca 2008.
Needless to say: it won't happen.

If there is a card we should ban, it should be terminus. One mana instant wrath effects should have never been printed. It's been a while since we've seen a viable aggro deck in legacy.

Cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LOLWut

Another wonderful example of not trusting the crowd.

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Plain awesome that you dug that up :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ahg113

+ TNN
+ Snappy
+ V. Clique

All four of them are the problem.

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Honeslty, two of those are mistakes. I still contend that Snappy would have been a much better fit for Red, though I have no doubt that it also fits in Blue. And TNN should have been pre-emptively banned, IMO. Clique might have been a better fit in Black, but it also works in Blue. Delver is also a mistake, but I can live slightly more with that one.

As for the side discussion on DTT, I agree that ti's a very potent card, but there are only a few decks that improve with DTT (blue-based combo springs to mind), and it's still as good a spell as Cruise, but it's not as raw-power as Cruise.

There, want to shake up the format for real? Ban Ponder, Preordain, Terminus, and Show and Tell. I doubt a new slew of blue decks would dominate as much as those that around right now. I don't understand how Show and Tell isn't banned but Survival is, in the sense that Survival got banned because better and better targets kept coming out/would come out and rather than ban Vengevine (rather than ban Grisel/Omniscience) they banned Survival (Show and Tell).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kanti

There, want to shake up the format for real? Ban Ponder, Preordain, Terminus, and Show and Tell. I doubt a new slew of blue decks would dominate as much as those that around right now. I don't understand how Show and Tell isn't banned but Survival is, in the sense that Survival got banned because better and better targets kept coming out/would come out and rather than ban Vengevine (rather than ban Grisel/Omniscience) they banned Survival (Show and Tell).

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Why ban Ponder and Preordain instead of the card that's clearly better than both? Ponder and Preordain are much closer to the power level of Elves' engines, GSZ, Confidant, Library, Top, etc. than Brainstorm is. You're suggesting the same damn course of action that caused a neverending series of bans with Necro.

IMO, there is room for "Keep Necro" style bans when the card is less oppressive - ie. if not everyone is playing, say, Survival, a few creatures on the banlist are worth keeping an interesting engine. With Brainstorm, though, we're not far from literally everyone playing it, and it's not that it works with specific cards for strong results, it just makes nearly any deck better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kanti

There, want to shake up the format for real? Ban Ponder, Preordain, Terminus, and Show and Tell. I doubt a new slew of blue decks would dominate as much as those that around right now. I don't understand how Show and Tell isn't banned but Survival is, in the sense that Survival got banned because better and better targets kept coming out/would come out and rather than ban Vengevine (rather than ban Grisel/Omniscience) they banned Survival (Show and Tell).

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You can just ban Brainstorm and Ponder and the format will shift to become substantially less blue.

Yes, Preordain will then become an auto-include in every blue list, however the overall number of blue lists will decline dramatically. It's about the consistency alongside the denial and lately the problematic creatures and Show and Tell. Remove the extreme consistency from the equation and the format becomes a much more balanced experience. Aggro becomes real again. Control remains viable. Aggro Control is what suffers when extreme consistency is removed from the equation because those are the lists that rely on sorting out 10-10-10 quickly and always from a low land base that is prone to bad draws in the absence of a bunch of good cantrips. Fast combo suffers when extreme consistency is removed.

Right now Legacy is dominated by blue-based Aggro Control with Combo and a single Control list as the only other really viable options.

Cute. The same people with the same arguments like before the TC ban ... should I copy & paste the last 30 pages and the whole discussion about Preordain + SDT still being miles better than Zoo.dec?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cheerios

If there is a card we should ban, it should be terminus. One mana instant wrath effects should have never been printed. It's been a while since we've seen a viable aggro deck in legacy.

Cheers

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... how exactly does the terminus in the hand opener get turned into one mana instant wrath? Seriously.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

... how exactly does the terminus in the hand opener get turned into one mana instant wrath? Seriously.

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Cabal Therapy on self, naming terminus with Noxious Revival? Obviously.

The problem with Survival was that it led to a massive reduction in strategic diversity. There is a big difference between a top 8 full of Brainstorm and a top 8 full of survival. Towards the end of the Survival format the best aggro deck was a Survival deck (the GW survival variant), so was the best combo deck (the Ooze version) and the best control deck (the blue version).

People clamoring for a Brainstorm ban are trying (or are going to try) to draw parallels by saying that best aggro = Brainstorm Delver, best control = Brainstorm Miracles, and best combo = Brainstorm Omni, and it is perhaps a valid comparison in terms of format saturation but nowhere near the same in terms of actual gameplay. The strategies and endgames of these decks are all completely different. It's not at all like late 2010 where the only viable decks could all kill you by cycling through Rootwallas and Vengevines. The way a Delver deck plays out is very different to the way a Miracles deck plays out and this means the format is still enjoyable to watch and play. If you're honestly trying to suggest that every blue deck is "hurr durr cast Brainstorm, everything afterwards is trivial" then I think you're delusional.

Quote:

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With Brainstorm, though, we're not far from literally everyone playing it, and it's not that it works with specific cards for strong results, it just makes nearly any deck better.

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By that logic we could also ban fetchlands.

I agree that Brainstorm is clearly the best card in legacy right now by a significant margin, but I won't agree that power level is a good enough reason to ban a card. If the card is so powerful that it eliminates strategic diversity and leads to a bunch of degenerate mirrors (Survival, Flash), then sure - get rid of it. But having all the best decks be Brainstorm decks is no more of an issue than all the best decks being fetchland decks. A lot of decks are improved by adding Brainstorm. A lot of decks are improved by adding fetchlands. Why is this an issue?

The colour pie argument ("blue is too good") has no validity either. If there was a hypothetical format where you had to use one of 5 monocolour core set precon decks and the blue one was way too good, then this would definitely suck! Everybody is playing the same 60 cards, all the games play out the same. That situation isn't entertaining to watch or play. This is in no way comparable to current legacy though. Even though GP Kyoto hit the 32/32 Brainstorm count,
the top 8 was:

ANT
Omni
Grixis Delver
SFM/Mentor Miracles
URW Stoneblade
Legend Miracles
RUG Delver
Omni

Another way of looking at it is

1 Combo A
2 Combo B
2 Control
2 Tempo/Aggro
1 Midrange

If the top 8 in our blue-neutered alternate universe was somehow this instead:

SI/Charbelcher/Oops
12 post
1-Drop Zoo
Lands
Jund
Lands
Big Zoo
12 post

How is this an improvement? You still have
1 Combo A
2 Combo B
2 Control
2 Tempo/Aggro
1 Midrange
And people complaining that Nacatl is way stronger than any one-drop creature deserves to be, and that board wipes cost too much mana, and wtf no way should Cloudpost be allowed to exist in the format because one day Wizards is going to print an expensive colourless card that just pushes it over the edge!

I would have zero problem having a top 8 that looked like my nonblue hypothetical, and in no way am I trying to suggest that banning Brainstorm would turn the format into that overnight, but I don't understand why pushing the format in that direction is so desirable when the format we have currently is equally balanced in terms of available strategic options.

@nedleeds

Yeah, you can brainstorm it back but you should know better that there are other ways to set up a miracle. :)

Regarding the issue on the cantrip cartel, I think the level of consistency it gives players is one of legacy's attractions. Sadly, not all colors can have the same level of consistency.

I also don't understand why we argue on deck diversity based on colors (ie: blue deck, green deck etc) instead of archetypes.

Cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

...
I agree that Brainstorm is clearly the best card in legacy right now by a significant margin, but I won't agree that power level is a good enough reason to ban a card. If the card is so powerful that it eliminates strategic diversity and leads to a bunch of degenerate mirrors (Survival, Flash), then sure - get rid of it. But having all the best decks be Brainstorm decks is no more of an issue than all the best decks being fetchland decks. A lot of decks are improved by adding Brainstorm. A lot of decks are improved by adding fetchlands. Why is this an issue?
...

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Treasure Cruise and Mental Misstep saw play in a bunch of different decks, so by that standard, those bans were unjustified.

I do think that the prevalence of the cantrip shell is in no small part a symptom of the format's over-reliance on Force of Will.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cheerios

Yeah, you can brainstorm it back but you should know better that there are other ways to set up a miracle. :)

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No there isn't, not when the Miracle is drawn prematurely or in your opener. Ask a Miracles pilot if he would keep, Island, Strand, Terminus, Ponder, Brainstorm, Top, Counterbalance on the play in the blind?

Quote:

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I also don't understand why we argue on deck diversity based on colors (ie: blue deck, green deck etc) instead of archetypes.

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I don't I argue about color much at all. I argue that one card has 100% usage in a GP Top 8, and if it were Survival, or Lion's Eye Diamond it would be banned. But the sacred cow is allowed to roam free and shit all over the countryside. The counter argument to 100% saturation is just hyperbole like "pillar of the format", "glue", "would quit", "play modern", "consistency".

WotC on Banned Cards:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wotc

Cards are usually banned from play if they enable a deck or play style that heavily skews the play environment. What does that mean? If the card were legal, a competitive player either must be playing it, or must be specifically targeting it with his or her own strategies.

Some cards are banned because they have proven to simply be too powerful in their respective format. While hundreds of hours are spent rigorously playtesting sets before their release, the complexity of Magic makes it nearly impossible to accurately predict all the ways the new cards interact with older ones.

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Seems pretty straight forward really. The frustrating part that makes it even more irritating is there are several bad cards still banned, and the most recent unbannings are not even played.

Force of Will is fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rufus

Treasure Cruise and Mental Misstep saw play in a bunch of different decks, so by that standard, those bans were unjustified.

I do think that the prevalence of the cantrip shell is in no small part a symptom of the format's over-reliance on Force of Will.

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Treasure Cruise favoured a particular archetype of deck (UR(w) Delver) far more than others, reducing strategic diversity.

MM also negatively warped the format by nerfing all archetypes that relied on 1 mana spells. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing as an isolated statment it turned out that it created a narrow metagame dominated by blue-based Natural Order decks, so again, it was banned because it reduced strategic format diversity, not because it 'saw play in a bunch of decks'.

Edit:

Quote:

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I don't I argue about color much at all. I argue that one card has 100% usage in a GP Top 8, and if it were Survival, or Lion's Eye Diamond it would be banned. But the sacred cow is allowed to roam free and shit all over the countryside. The counter argument to 100% saturation is just hyperbole like "pillar of the format", "glue", "would quit", "play modern", "consistency".

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If Survival or LED saw 100% GP saturation and you wanted to ban them I would probably agree with you, because from a gameplay point of view those cards do very different things to Brainstorm and it is likely that such a format would be highly degenerate.

Again, if Polluted Delta or Volcanic Island had 32/32 GP top 8 results, would you want to ban those?

It's ludicrous to claim that support for Brainstorm is all in the form of baseless buzzwords like "pillar" or "glue" and in the same sentence attempt to argue for its banning by labelling it a "sacred cow".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

I don't I argue about color much at all. I argue that one card has 100% usage in a GP Top 8, and if it were Survival, or Lion's Eye Diamond it would be banned.

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If Survival or Lion's Eye Diamond had 100% usage in a GP top 8, it would mean that the top 8 consisted entirely of the same archetype. The same cannot be said of Brainstorm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

If Survival or Lion's Eye Diamond had 100% usage in a GP top 8, it would mean that the top 8 consisted entirely of the same archetype. The same cannot be said of Brainstorm.

---

Doesn't matter. If it was 3 Storm decks, 3 Arrogant Wurm Aggro decks and 2 Dredge decks LED should be banned according to the text below that you (and WotC themselves) seem to want to ignore.

WotC on Banned Cards:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wotc

Cards are usually banned from play if they enable a deck or play style that heavily skews the play environment. What does that mean? If the card were legal, a competitive player either must be playing it, or must be specifically targeting it with his or her own strategies.

Some cards are banned because they have proven to simply be too powerful in their respective format. While hundreds of hours are spent rigorously playtesting sets before their release, the complexity of Magic makes it nearly impossible to accurately predict all the ways the new cards interact with older ones.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Doesn't matter. If it was 3 Storm decks, 3 Arrogant Wurm Aggro decks and 2 Dredge decks LED should be banned according to the text below that you (and WotC themselves) seem to want to ignore.

WotC on Banned Cards:

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So are you trying to argue that banning Brainstorm would make the format healthier/more fun/more diverse/more interesting or are you simply trying to hold wizards accountable for some kind of "Simon Says: Ban this card"

If it's the latter case do you also support the reserved list? I want things to happen for the benefit of the game, not because 'WotC says this'.

If I may ask Nedleeds, from your point of view, why does Force get a pass and Brainstorm does not while both cards fit into the quote from WotC your posting. What is the divide for you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

If I may ask Nedleeds, from your point of view, why does Force get a pass and Brainstorm does not while both cards fit into the quote from WotC your posting. What is the divide for you?

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I don't want to put words in Nedleeds mouth, but FoW gets a lot of slack because it's purely a reactive counter.