Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord Seth
But the relevant article was about a particular format.
Yes, it was, and I will admit my flaw there. I would like to point out this though:
"One of the problems is that Mana Leak is simply a much more powerful card than we would be comfortable printing under modern development rules."
Basicly, if they had their time over, according to the rules they have set themselves for all sets, this card would not have seen print to the Modern format. That's a touch crazy, a two cost Tax counter is now seen as too powerful to print.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
Yes, it was, and I will admit my flaw there. I would like to point out this though:
"One of the problems is that Mana Leak is simply a much more powerful card than we would be comfortable printing under modern development rules."
Basicly, if they had their time over, according to the rules they have set themselves for all sets, this card would not have seen print to the Modern format. That's a touch crazy, a two cost Tax counter is now seen as too powerful to print.
This.
Also, I don't see Memory Lapse in Modern. Not that it's that powerful spell, but seen how there are very few tempo tools available, one needs not to wonder, why the Top8s are Jund, Jund, Jund, Jund, Jund, Jund, Affinity, Jund.
Nice fromat.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Because all of the players that are actually good that play the format just play whatever they are told is the best deck
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
Because all of the players that are actually good that play the format just play whatever they are told is the best deck
That's ignorant. The good players test the top decks and settle on one based on it's expected performance in a field, and comfort level. If results are pointing to a select few top decks then it's because they're exactly that.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Norm
That's ignorant. The good players test the top decks and settle on one based on it's expected performance in a field, and comfort level. If results are pointing to a select few top decks then it's because they're exactly that.
True, but what does that say about the format when it is indeed Jund and Affinity with Merfolk trailing behind by 6 Top 8s?
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/met...?format=Modern
And just to compare, here's Legacy for this month as well.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/met...?format=Legacy
Not knocking on Modern players, just find the format a bit . . . limiting . . . in terms of viable strategies.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EpicLevelCommoner
Not knocking on Modern players, just find the format a bit . . . limiting . . . in terms of viable strategies.
They haven't seemed to figure out that some cards will always be better than other cards. Banning the good cards doesn't always make more cards viable; it just makes different cards viable... and usually the less fun ones at that.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
They haven't seemed to figure out that some cards will always be better than other cards. Banning the good cards doesn't always make more cards viable; it just makes different cards viable... and usually the less fun ones at that.
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post...it-needs#notes
*shudder*
Re: All B/R update speculation.
My real point being that people are not creative and just net deck the shit out of modern. No pros ever bring a brew anymore. I mean to be fair, everytime they brewed a deck, it was hilariously broken and it got banned, but the fact is that at this point, is that non Jund/Affinity can definitely win. The pros and grinders of the format however would rather just play Jund Affinity Twin or Tron.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Scott
MaRo is so much fail. He embodies what is wrong with magic. He seems to basically just take anything that non casuals enjoy and shit all over its chest.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Magic's target demographic is Bobby, the kid who buys maybe a couple of packs per set and plays at his friend's kitchen table. There are a million times more of that kid than there are of Neville, the neckbearded brony Legacy player who doesn't buy any packs at all and spends his free time composing 4000-word essays about why True-Name Nemesis is no fun. It just doesn't make any business sense for anyone to care about Neville. Maro's blog, and for that matter the entire organized play program, exists to advertise the game to Bobby.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
My real point being that people are not creative and just net deck the shit out of modern. No pros ever bring a brew anymore. I mean to be fair, everytime they brewed a deck, it was hilariously broken and it got banned, but the fact is that at this point, is that non Jund/Affinity can definitely win. The pros and grinders of the format however would rather just play Jund Affinity Twin or Tron.
Is that really any different from Legacy, though? How often, if at all, does someone's "brew" actually do well? You basically see the same decks in Legacy Top 8's over and over, and even the ones you're a bit surprised to see score a Top 8 are still established decks people knew about (e.g. you might be surprised to see High Tide get a win, but the deck is established and hardly a brew).
Maybe you're going with a different definition of "brew" than I do; to me a "brew" is something that's a genuinely original deck that hasn't been seen before that does really well. And that's pretty rare to see in Legacy.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord Seth
Is that really any different from Legacy, though? How often, if at all, does someone's "brew" actually do well? You basically see the same decks in Legacy Top 8's over and over, and even the ones you're a bit surprised to see score a Top 8 are still established decks people knew about (e.g. you might be surprised to see High Tide get a win, but the deck is established and hardly a brew).
Maybe you're going with a different definition of "brew" than I do; to me a "brew" is something that's a genuinely original deck that hasn't been seen before that does really well. And that's pretty rare to see in Legacy.
I agree, but I don't really think that it's a problem. Once an eternal format is established, there are basically only two ways for completely new brews to appear. One is for a card to be printed that has a unique interaction with a previously underplayed card. The other is for changes in the ban list to turn previously suboptimal or unplayable cards into more desirable ones. In any other case, new cards that are good enough will simply slide into relatively established archtypes filled with other good cards. Again, there's not a problem with that; you just have to have reasonable expectations for what a format can do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thefringthing
Magic's target demographic is Bobby, the kid who buys maybe a couple of packs per set and plays at his friend's kitchen table. There are a million times more of that kid than there are of Neville, the neckbearded brony Legacy player who doesn't buy any packs at all and spends his free time composing 4000-word essays about why True-Name Nemesis is no fun. It just doesn't make any business sense for anyone to care about Neville. Maro's blog, and for that matter the entire organized play program, exists to advertise the game to Bobby.
This is quite possibly the case, but I'm not entirely sure why. Magic isn't successful because of the neckbeards that never leave their home, but magic isn't successful due to the assortment of Bobbys that may play FNM irregularly or may never leave their kitchen tabletop. Magic is successful due to the players in the middle. They are the skilled players that regularly attend FNM, local PTQs, and local big tournaments like SCGs, GPs, etc. If it weren't for the grinders, new players would have nothing to aspire too.
There's a reason that Bobby buys the MTG packs instead of Pokemon or some other game or a book or bubble gum or whatever. Even if Bobby never does more than an FNM every other week, he still gets to idolize the guys that win tournaments, whether it's 4-0ing every FNM or taking down a GP. If R&D wants to dumb MTG down and suck all the skill out of the game then there is no reason for skilled players to play the game, and that means that the Bobbys of Magic have no heroes.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord Seth
Maybe you're going with a different definition of "brew" than I do; to me a "brew" is something that's a genuinely original deck that hasn't been seen before that does really well. And that's pretty rare to see in Legacy.
That's because the number of staples in the format is very high. One of the consequences is less innovation. The reason why the metagame isn't stale are its cycles where archetypes rotate in and out, so we're fine.
What are reasons to play Modern? Being somewhat cheaper than certain Legacy decks? Price support? Because as a format, it's fucking horrible. I think it's quite ridiculous that Wizards bans the fun out of a format and then expects people to like it. They banned Wild Nacatl, for God's sake. Legacy has a deep card pool that helps to balance most of the problems that can occur. Modern can't do that in its current state and Wizards doesn't print answers to "solve" the format.
Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
If R&D wants to dumb MTG down and suck all the skill out of the game then there is no reason for skilled players to play the game, and that means that the Bobbys of Magic have no heroes.
I don't think Bobby aspires to become this:
http://media.g4tv.com/images/blog/20...2105904528.jpg
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
I agree, but I don't really think that it's a problem. Once an eternal format is established, there are basically only two ways for completely new brews to appear. One is for a card to be printed that has a unique interaction with a previously underplayed card. The other is for changes in the ban list to turn previously suboptimal or unplayable cards into more desirable ones. In any other case, new cards that are good enough will simply slide into relatively established archtypes filled with other good cards. Again, there's not a problem with that; you just have to have reasonable expectations for what a format can do.
I don't think it's a problem either. But I object to the argument that "in Modern you can't win with brews!" as an argument in favor of Legacy because I don't see Legacy as particularly conducive to them either.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
I'm not so sure really. We already lost the "cool" kids from the start. The giant nerds are busy doing even nerdier shit in poorly lit basements somewhere. We're working with the middle-of-the-road nerd, the guy that gets excited when their friend texts them a spoiled new planeswalker but not so excited that he forgets about date night with the gf. Maybe they aren't aspiring to become cheeky, overweight guys, but I'm pretty sure most repeat MTG players have indulged in the fantasy of "going pro," even if only in their own head.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord Seth
I don't think it's a problem either. But I object to the argument that "in Modern you can't win with brews!" as an argument in favor of Legacy because you can't really do that in Legacy either.
Oh yeah, I never meant that you could. Modern and Legacy both favor the staples and long-established archtypes, although Legacy does have more established, playable archtypes. The biggest difference between the formats is: Would you rather play some of the most powerful and skill-testing cards in magic or would you rather play their watered down, neutered equivalents? I don't want to Serum Visions; I want to Brainstorm. Urza can keep his shitty lands; I want City of Traitors and Cloudposts. I don't want to flinch when I see a bunch of undercosted artifacts pop into play on turn one; I'd rather chuckle and then proceed to play approximately 19 Dark Rituals and a Grapeshot (for the rub-ins).
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord Seth
Is that really any different from Legacy, though? How often, if at all, does someone's "brew" actually do well? You basically see the same decks in Legacy Top 8's over and over, and even the ones you're a bit surprised to see score a Top 8 are still established decks people knew about (e.g. you might be surprised to see High Tide get a win, but the deck is established and hardly a brew).
Maybe you're going with a different definition of "brew" than I do; to me a "brew" is something that's a genuinely original deck that hasn't been seen before that does really well. And that's pretty rare to see in Legacy.
Fair point, though I think Modern is much less established. There is certainly unexplored territory there. People just from the get go were all over Jund, Affinity, Cloudpost, Twin. And A lot of people instead of actually looking at the rest of the stuff that hadn't been played yet just never changed decks. There is definitely unexplored potential in Modern is what I am saying. A guy at my LGS Thursday was playing a Mono Blue devotion deck of sorts with Grand Architect and Master of Waves and it played Slate of Ancestry to just go fucking broken. If he were a better player and had tuned his deck a bit he would've probably beaten me and Top 8'd. My point being that there are stll powerful things that you can win with, but most people that I see play modern don't even try.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
Fair point, though I think Modern is much less established. There is certainly unexplored territory there. People just from the get go were all over Jund, Affinity, Cloudpost, Twin. And A lot of people instead of actually looking at the rest of the stuff that hadn't been played yet just never changed decks. There is definitely unexplored potential in Modern is what I am saying. A guy at my LGS Thursday was playing a Mono Blue devotion deck of sorts with Grand Architect and Master of Waves and it played Slate of Ancestry to just go fucking broken. If he were a better player and had tuned his deck a bit he would've probably beaten me and Top 8'd. My point being that there are stll powerful things that you can win with, but most people that I see play modern don't even try.
I think Spike Feeder + Archangel of Thune could have it's uses in a Rock shell. Not sure how it would work out though.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
It's harder in Legacy to have a completely new 75 because the card pool is too old with too many clear choices. I.e. we have the beta dual land cycle. We have Swords to Plowshares and it's tough (not impossible) to justify another 1cc white creature removal spell if that's what you are looking for in your 'brew'.
Modern is wide open to win with any well constructed 'brew' because it's the first eternal format for the generation of players who would never even think to build their own deck. Modern from the ground up was on MODO and spammed all over the deck / strategery sites. The modern breakdown locally is like 70% card for card 75s, 20% unsleeved garbage / childs standard deck because the modern tourney is free so why not try, 10% decks the creators believe to be original or not netdecked.
In modern you have to accept a few things
1) Sometimes you are going to mulligan to find lands or spells, maybe to 5 lets say and you'll just draw garbage and lose. You had no hope because there's no spells that can salvage a mulligan like Brainstorm, Top, Stoneforge, Ancestral Recall etc.. This is frustrating but all the efficient card / deck manipulation is gone from the format.
2) There are 2-3 derp I win 2 card combos that you just might not be able to stop given your inability to filter your draws or accelerate your mana (outside of dorks). Sometimes you aren't playing blue or mindcensor/teeg and you just get scapeshifted by a shaved ape. Sometimes an unbathed child top decks splinter twin and you don't have removal and had to burn your removal earlier. Sometimes a feral mouthbreather just casts Summoner's Trap, you Mindcensor him and he still finds Emrakul.
3) As a rule of thumb the play skill / rules knowledge / card pool knowledge is ~50% of the average legacy players. Most are standard converts. I'll sit there ticking a fucking imperial regimen of planeswalkers upwards with like 2 ghostly prisons out and my opponent won't freely attack my walkers with his men. God forbid you have a chalice out, it'll be a counterspell auto-cannon.
I think the format is fine, I'd tweak the b/r list a little bit though. There are a few things on it right now that aren't as irritating or offensive or 'derp' as some stuff that's unbanned. The whole derp kiki-jiki or derp-shift thing to me is no less offensive then a slow dredge deck with GGT with no Dread Return.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EpicLevelCommoner
I think Spike Feeder + Archangel of Thune could have it's uses in a Rock shell. Not sure how it would work out though.
Both at least are moderately useful on their own unlike some of the other life.dec combos.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord Seth
I don't think it's a problem either. But I object to the argument that "in Modern you can't win with brews!" as an argument in favor of Legacy because I don't see Legacy as particularly conducive to them either.
Tell that to Caleb.
