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I'm not super concerned about that. You'd have to play Thespian as a spell, and I don't want to be cutting a spell slot right now. I might try it as Dark Depths since it's only replacing Maze (which comes out in many matchups anyway). I'll let you know how it goes.
-Matt
I cut a Wasteland (going to 3 Wasteland) for my Thespian's Stage, but that's fine for me because I run 4 KOTR and 1 Crop Rotation. It makes mana so it's not that bad as a land. In your build, I would try -1 Savannah +1 Stage. Without the flexibility of fetching both halves of the combo EOT, I don't think Marit Lage will be as good, but hey, try it anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
So Depths was bad. Not super terrible, but because I'm not fully built around that combo, Dark Depths as part of the combo was worse than Maze of Ith would have been, in general. I never stuck Knight and Hexmage at the same time ever, so it never mattered. The combo is fine if you're building around it, but sliding it in as a nice "got you!" never worked out. Depths will be cut for Maze again.
Glissa was VERY solid in the creature matchups. Against Jund, it just wrecked the board. In Miracles, it was nice against Cliques (don't want to attack with Teegs into surprise Clique blockers and doesn't die to RIP), etc. In the matchups it's bad in, it's still as bad as Lingering Souls. The only difference is Souls is better against walkers, Moat, and Humility. Otherwise, very solid and would run again.
3 GSZ is still where I want to be.
I didn't miss the 1 Maelstrom Pulse I cut. It's fine.
3 Souls was fine. I like 4, but 3 was also okay.
Golgari Charm taking out 10 Goblins on turn 2 was a nice play of the day.
Hexmage pulled her weight in keeping Jaces off the table and first striking in combat, killing Lilianas, etc.
I placed 3rd to win a Badlands, losing only to TES in game 3 by getting manascrewed. This is the list I played:
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reqliquary
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Vampire Hexmage
1 Glissa
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Lingering Souls
3 Sylvan Library
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Dark Depths
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
------
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Golgari Charm
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ooze
1 Cabal Therapy
-Matt
Well, you didn't really run the combo in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
edit:
By "the combo", I meant Stage/Depths, which is really different from hex/depths.
What are you recurring with Glissa, nothing? So she's just a 3/3 first striker for 3 mana? I find that hard to justify, even as a singleton. If you were doing Engineered Explosives, I would be ready to test her. With nothing, I'm not sold.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
EDIT: I forgot she had deathtouch as well. Definately better, but I think not using EE is somewhat of a missed opportunity.
Gibs Batterskull, opposing Goyfs, even Jitte carrying non-fliers. I can see her benefit in a creature heavy meta.
Other than the part where an engine with Explosives (or hell even Executioner's Capsule, hello anti-Emrakul lock) could have put in work, how many times would you have seen her ability be used?
Also, she does get pretty sweet with equipment that gets killed or creatures like Tidehollow Sculler and Ethersworn Canonist. Especially Sculler.
She also gets stronger with a Loam engine in the deck to fill your 'yard with tasty treats. This could be a decent way to get aboard the Thespian Depths train since the combo gets immensely better once you start recurring the pieces for when Marit Lage gets STP'd.
A 3/3 First Strike Deathtouch in combat is insane. I killed creatures only about 4 times since most of the time, Glissa went unblocked. Most players just start taking 3 and digging for removal unless I'm attacking a Planeswalker (in which case, Deathrite usually takes a trip under the bus).Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
As a one-of I think she's fine as-is, I think you could run a build around her, but Capsule doesn't kill Deathrite nor Dark Confidant (but EE does). I think if you were playing a build with her, running EE would be just fine. I mean, if you cut the Hexmages and added in Glissa (so 2-3 Glissa total), you could then run 2-3 EE and really start going to town. I'd also run 2 Jitte with her, so when the new rules changes come around, you've got something to get back Jitte when they start packing more real removal to kill it.
Of course, I just wanted to try it and see. It didn't help this time around, but it didn't REALLY hinder me either. Again, I think running this combo is fine but you must be running 4 Knights and some number of Crop Rotation to make this work. I feel like Hexmages in a Thespian Depths build would not only be good as a backup way to start the combo, but also just great in creature combat/anti-Jace. Even if this test didn't work for me specifically, perhaps it's something you should look into.Quote:
By "the combo", I meant Stage/Depths, which is really different from hex/depths.
-Matt
She's Ophidi-Crypt with a Nihil Spellbomb running around.
This is also true.
-Matt
Oh definitely, I think Hexmage is a very good call and I will be running at least 2 when I get them. Come to think of it, it should be very obvious in a deck with Dark Depths / Stage but I never even considered it until you mentioned killing Jaces and Lilis. The build I would run is actually almost identical to yours, Matt. The only differences are -3 Goyf -1 Glissa -1 Library -1 Decay +1 Swords +1 Crop Rotation +1 Knight +1 Ooze +1 Safekeeper +1 Teeg and some manabase differences including a Thespian's Stage.
Edit:
I was responding to Matt's previous post.
Also, Glissa + Blazing Torch = colorless Punishing Fire.
@matt
the list you posted is the same one I playtested this week (only I ran 4 stp and 3 decay, 6 discard spells, and liliana instead of hexmages). I brought kitchen finks from the side to help against burn (zenith makes it much more feasible). As I said on my last post, the opponents get so crazy about glissa they stop caring about knights and bobs. And active knight=immortal glissa since karakas is there so save her. All in all I'm pretty confortable with the deck.
I totally forgot Glissa was a legend. Go go Karakas!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sughayyer
-Matt
I played the glissa/artifact route a while back. Glissa plus EE is dumb against most of the format especially with he possible Karakas to back her up. She is easily GSZ able and stalls the ground while Lilliana/deathrite do work. I was a huge fan back when I tried her.
She was a reason I was justifying the strength or BWG rock.
How many EE did you run for that to work consistently? EE is pretty good in this deck, and recurring it can be backbreaking. Why did you stop running Glissa? I really want to try running her but I don't have any right now. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
"glissa+blazing torch = colorless punishing fire" (this phone's browser is not letting me to use proper quotes)
this, or moonglove extract. The first one requires 2 mana and tapping acreature (and most of our creatures have a hard time sticking on the field and already do nice things by themselves) and can be fetched by sfm.
The second one costs 3 mana, works alone, can't be fetched, but is a colorless source of damage (blazing can't get past protection because it's an "equipped creature has....." kind of ability)
EDIT:
Actually ditch that. For 2 mana (or less) we have abrupt decay or swords to plowshares, wich doesn't cost tapping a creature.
For 3 mana we have lingering souls.
We don't need infinite recursion or drawing a ton of cards. We simply have cards that outclass most of the other classes in the format, any attempt of going "infinite" in a the rock shell will be very clumsy and unoptimal. Bg loam, Nic Fit and Jund can already "go infinite" in a better way than us, but none can end the game as fast as us - or stall as long as we can if need be (except maybe bg loam)
Yeah there's no real need for Punishing Fire style cards. EE Recursion would be really good however. We can only really deal with 1-2 threats per turn, and it's not easy to beat a deck that puts out more than that. EE would help tremendously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sughayyer
Found this list on TC decks:
Maindeck is 63 cards, but still doesn't seem too bad. I dislike the lack of manipulation, but it just jams very good control elements in the metagame. Obstinate provides life and is good against other discard, Thrun evades everything. Hymn, Thoughtseize are backbreaking discard, and Liliana is mitigated by Lingering Souls. The sideboard seems to be against Planeswalkers a ton, but I feel like you're already really good against them anyway.Quote:
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Obstinate Baloth
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
Instants [8]
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sorceries [15]
3 Lingering Souls
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
Planeswalkers [3]
3 Liliana of the Veil
Lands [23]
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Oblivion Ring
Just thought I'd point that out.
So I think if people are wanting to move in a Glissa direction (or at least, a more artifact oriented direction), I think something like this could be good:
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Glissa
17
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
15
3 Lingering Souls
3 Sylvan Library
6
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
23
If you choose to cut GSZ from my list, a piece of hand disruption, and the Hexmages, you have room for 2 Jitte, 3 EE, and an extra pair of Glissas. You're a bit heavy on the 3-drops for my liking, but you're running Jitte to attach to Glissa (since Jitte battles will be super intense in the future I predict). You have recurring EE if you need to, as well. Very likely the list is worse in the unfair matchups but incredible good in the fair ones. EE is great against Delver decks, and Jitte is good against the rest of the midrange piles.
In combat, First Strike + Jitte means Glissa can attack/block a guy, kill it, then muck another guy with the Jitte counters. Seems sweet.
-Matt
With having Glissa and EE main, would there still be a need for pernicious deed? I'm thinking they almost do the same thing except deed is more flexible, but only a one time use.
I'm really excited to try out this build that includes Glissa, seems like a boss against any creature oriented decks.
I think if you're running 2 EE main, then 2 Deed in the board may be overkill unless you're facing a ton of Affinity. This would open up slots for grave hate and/or combo.
-Matt
I'm very curious as to why this deck isn't a DTB. It can be built like Deathblade and has Maverick's hate bears? What's preventing this deck from dominating? Combo?