Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mackan
Regarding Flusterstorm or Entreat.
I think both are fine choices in the mirror and which is better depends on the rest of the list(s). If you are experienced playing the mirror flusterstorm gets better too. Entreat can win games you screwed up while also saving a lot of time sometimes you are under a quick cb-lock+jace and from that point Entreat also is an out. I don't think it's fair to say that flusterstorm do nothing against CB/Jace because most things resolving involve counterspells of some kind.
TBH Flusterstorm is perfectly acceptable especially if they have a counterbalance in play, because it'll only counter the first copy (same as the Chalice of the Void interaction)
Quote:
Im currently stretching that fact as far as saying EE/disenchant/CJ are bad because neither help you fight the stack.
I'd say it more depends on HOW you approach the matchup, as noted in Ein's article. If you want to fight it out on the stack, you board such that you're best equipped to do that. If you want to fight it out on the board, you side in with respect to that. That being said I think I'd never bring in a disenchant vs. Miracles, if that's the deck this bit is referring to.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Derailing a bit, but need to know this - what is our game plan vs Dredge G1? Float Terminus and ETA together?
Also, just polling this out there - using Einherjer's 75, against ANT would you guys board in REB/Pyroblast? I noticed in the SCG article that Philipp does not do this, and I feel strongly against this. I think the emphasis on RIP is to strong, as well as the number of STP left in. In other words, I think the changes to Philipp's sideboarding schema as following is appropriate:
-1 STP
-1 RIP
+1 REB
+1 Pyroblast
Can I get feedback on this?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Not to sound like a prick, but are you taking a RiP out against Dredge? Because that is simply wrong. We would play 4 and additional Relics and stuff if we could.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
BBD's exact 75 with 2 SFM main, 2 SFM side popped up again, this time winning an SCG IQ: www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14375&iddeck=106066
Cutting Entreat takes away your "oops, I win" ability--which I'm not the biggest fan of. I generally like Entreat more against the fair decks, which I think double Batterskull is also viable against. One point that I've liked about SFM is that it's easier to deploy cost-wise, which I prefer in combo/control match ups. Possibly room for a transition?
1) Is it a viable approach to completely cut Entreat or did these guys mostly win on high level play skill?
2) For those of you with experience using both, is it harder for your opponent to prevent an Entreat or deal with SFM?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mackan
Regarding Flusterstorm or Entreat.
I think both are fine choices in the mirror and which is better depends on the rest of the list(s). If you are experienced playing the mirror flusterstorm gets better too. Entreat can win games you screwed up while also saving a lot of time sometimes you are under a quick cb-lock+jace and from that point Entreat also is an out. I don't think it's fair to say that flusterstorm do nothing against CB/Jace because most things resolving involve counterspells of some kind. Im currently stretching that fact as far as saying EE/disenchant/CJ are bad because neither help you fight the stack.
I dunno...
Flusterstorm is an answer to their answer to your threat. That or an answer to their answer to your answer to their threat. It's dead in hand if at least 2 spells don't enter the stack first. It can only protect your threat resolving relatively early game, since it's just a Spell Pierce for 3 in that scenario, and it cant hamper Spell Pierce or Counterspell for too long, nevermind Force of Will, itself. The second, "whammy" mode, where you throw it down at the end of a full stack feels powerful, but even then the card just managed to be a Dispel. I definitely wouldn't view it as some sort of replacement for Council's Judgment, since it's only defensive when used in conjunction with actual counters or removal, while being completely dead after that first counter-war where both players empty their hand.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Drede: you definitely want all your graveyard hate. I'm not sure how you could even consider not running a card that says "You can't win" for 2 mana.
Stps are very important in the matchup and REBs are also decent. Rebs can kills narcs, counter half of their spells and in a pinch off your own creatures to exile bridges.
With my 2 ponder, 2 snap, 2 clique build I SB like this:
+2 rip
+1 relic or cage
+3 reb
+2 fluster
-1 counterspell (all the 1 mana counters are better)
-1 judgment
-2 clique
-3 jace
-1 terminus
Jace is too little too late. entreat is a sweeper and win con. Terminus and stp are important for clearing up their creatures, but you don't reallly need 4 terminus. Don't slam rip turn 2 unless you have FoW backup, and even then wait if you can. They sometimes run counters of their own or natures claim type effects, so be ready for a fight on the stack.
The game plan game 1 is to not ever let them do any crazy dredging and then grind them out, answering all their creatures till the sputter out. It is important to try to exile their creatures before they get priority with therapys in the GY. Entreat is a good finisher here. The game 1 usually goes long, but it's a pretty fair fight. Unlike most decks miracles actually can handle everything dredge does with it's maindeck.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AnziD
Derailing a bit, but need to know this - what is our game plan vs Dredge G1? Float Terminus and ETA together?
Also, just polling this out there - using Einherjer's 75, would you guys board in REB/Pyroblast? I noticed in the SCG article that Philipp does not do this, and I feel strongly against this. I think the emphasis on RIP is to strong, as well as the number of STP left in. In other words, I think the changes to Philipp's sideboarding schema as following is appropriate:
-1 STP
-1 RIP
+1 REB
+1 Pyroblast
Can I get feedback on this?
Against dredge, GY hate can be a free win.
Game 1 really depends on your build. You've got no real ways to kill your own creatures (unlike Joe's list with MD rebs), so getting rid of their bridges is pretty hard. You're going to want to float a terminus and wait for them to try to go for a kill. Counter Dread Return, and deal with therapies as you can. I feel like entreat is your out G1, and it provides an extra "one sided wipe" if they happen to be on the Zealot plan.
Swords nicely deals with ichorid or with their wincon when they get it into play. I don't like keeping in REB, as I'd rather deal with their threats rather than their enablers. Countering a Tolarian Winds or Breakthrough is nice, but I'd much rather be able to swords their flayer or whatever else they bring back. Terminus is really good to float G2/G3 as well, as while it in no way wins you the game, it's a nice "reset" button when you need it.
REB Can kill our snaps to exile bridge, but that feels a little too cute (though I've seen it used to great effect, I feel like I'd rather just slam RIP)
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
@AnziD: I'd leave all copies of RIP in against Dredge. I've had opponents just scoop after resolving RIP against them. I also like STP to -exile- their creatures.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheArchitect
With my 2 ponder, 2 snap, 2 clique build I SB like this:
+2 rip
+1 relic or cage
+3 reb
+2 fluster
-1 counterspell (all the 1 mana counters are better)
-1 judgment
-2 clique
-3 jace
-1 terminus
The game plan game 1 is to not ever let them do any crazy dredging and then grind them out, answering all their creatures till the sputter out. It is important to try to exile their creatures before they get priority with therapys in the GY. Entreat is a good finisher here. The game 1 usually goes long, but it's a pretty fair fight. Unlike most decks miracles actually can handle everything dredge does with it's maindeck.
I wouldn't SB out Clique. Apparently, Blast your own Clique to get rid of Bridges can be a thing, saw it once on Lossett's stream.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
I wouldn't SB out Clique. Apparently, Blast your own Clique to get rid of Bridges can be a thing, saw it once on Lossett's stream.
He did it at an SCG event too... I think his opponent misplayed at the end of the game with an Ichorid trigger / flayer with joe at like 2 life, but Joe managed to beat Dredge G1 with that tactic.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
I wouldn't SB out Clique. Apparently, Blast your own Clique to get rid of Bridges can be a thing, saw it once on Lossett's stream.
Things that happen(ed) once or twice are not usable for reasoning. I once bounced a Delver of Secrets that was flipped with my Venser, does this mean Venser is good vs Delver? No, he is horrible.
I really do hope that the plan that involves cutting RIP and Swords was NOT vs Dredge, I didn't even talk about Dredge in my article. Hopefully he just forgot to mention the MU which he was talking about, it just can't be Dredge.
Greetings
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
YamiJoey
Not to sound like a prick, but are you taking a RiP out against Dredge? Because that is simply wrong. We would play 4 and additional Relics and stuff if we could.
I'm fucking dumb, I meant to post this:
"Also, just polling this out there - using Einherjer's 75, against ANT would you guys board in REB/Pyroblast? I noticed in the SCG article that Philipp does not do this, and I feel strongly against this. I think the emphasis on RIP is to strong, as well as the number of STP left in. In other words, I think the changes to Philipp's sideboarding schema as following is appropriate:
-1 STP
-1 RIP
+1 REB
+1 Pyroblast
Can I get feedback on this?"
Sorry about the confusion. Obviously we want as many RIPs as possible against Dredge.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Decks have had to adjust and learn how to play against Batterskull basically since its printing. Decks that couldn't deal with Batterskull are no longer decks. Entreat is much harder to set up and cast, but infinitely harder to deal with.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AnziD
I'm fucking dumb, I meant to post this:
"Also, just polling this out there - using Einherjer's 75, against ANT would you guys board in REB/Pyroblast? I noticed in the SCG article that Philipp does not do this, and I feel strongly against this. I think the emphasis on RIP is to strong, as well as the number of STP left in. In other words, I think the changes to Philipp's sideboarding schema as following is appropriate:
-1 STP
-1 RIP
+1 REB
+1 Pyroblast
Can I get feedback on this?"
Sorry about the confusion. Obviously we want as many RIPs as possible against Dredge.
The thing about ANT is that the deck is designed to be resilient and able to handle itself later in the game. This late game longevity does not solely rest on Past in Flames, but it is a huge enabler. Rest in Peace forces the player to play the short game, essentially only giving him one-time use of each spell he's holding. While he is more than capable of going off with this shorting of resources, there's no "reset" button for that player anymore. I am very much on the side of "counter the enablers" vs. Storm decks. Basically, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, and Ad Nauseaum. None of these cards are blue. The blue cards in the deck are generally brainstorm, ponder, gitaxian probe, and sometimes preordain. I don't think that bringing in a hard counter that forces us to fetch red mana to counter a spell that doesn't potentially win them the game is the right thing to be doing. Given our deck relies on us having the stronger end-game, Rest in Peace is a definite inclusion.
As for Swords, the kryptonite of this matchup for miracles is Xanthrid Swarm, as we can no longer interact with our opponent, save having a counter-top lock on the board, at which point we are probably winning anyhow. Boarding out our only reliable ways to deal with this card (save terminus, I don't remember the exact boarding plan, but I can see how terminus could be justified, though moreso vs TES), is an easy way to get ourselves killed. Furthermore, Dark Confidant is a pain, and I'd rather the storm player not be drawing two cards per turn, given that outside of vclique, we don't have the means to represent a strong clock until later in the game.
Just my thoughts.
EDIT: I've clicked "delete" on the post below this one but I don't know if it actually deleted for everyone. I did so to consolidate the two posts into one:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
Decks have had to adjust and learn how to play against Batterskull basically since its printing. Decks that couldn't deal with Batterskull are no longer decks. Entreat is much harder to set up and cast, but infinitely harder to deal with.
Especially when it can be done at instant speed. For example, a batterskull vs BUG Delver is an annoyance. A resolved Entreat for 3 or 4 is lethal. What's more is that after some contemplation, I am inclined to agree with Einherjer in that it doesn't really improve any of our bad matchups. In that sense, it's a bit of a "win more" card for the matchups it's effective in, and thus definitely not worth 3 slots in the sideboard (2x mystic + 1x bskull) at the least.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
Decks have had to adjust and learn how to play against Batterskull basically since its printing. Decks that couldn't deal with Batterskull are no longer decks. Entreat is much harder to set up and cast, but infinitely harder to deal with.
Especially when it can be done at instant speed. For example, a batterskull vs BUG Delver is an annoyance. A resolved Entreat for 3 or 4 is lethal. What's more is that after some contemplation, I am inclined to agree with Einherjer in that it doesn't really improve any of our bad matchups. In that sense, it's a bit of a "win more" card for the matchups it's effective in, and thus definitely not worth 3 slots in the sideboard (2x mystic + 1x bskull) at the least.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AnziD
-1 STP
-1 RIP
+1 REB
+1 Pyroblast
As a rule, I wouldn't have less than two Plows post-board against ANT, but I'd almost always board out the 4th. The third is sort of optional. I think RIP is very strong against ANT, so I would definitely bring both in. Sure they might have a hand that can play around it, but most of their wins (especially their easy wins) involve Past in Flames. I also really like REBs against them. ANT usually has to cast at least one or two cantrips to set up their hand. I'm not crazy about the EEs against them though, so if you're looking to make room for REB, I'd start there. I understand that leaves you with few or no outs to an Empty, but I feel like ANT shouldn't be trying to win with Empty anyways. I'd rather die to an Empty having fought over their cantrips than die to a Tendrils with an EE in hand. You could probably cut a Snapcaster or two also. One or two is fine, but three might be a bit much alongside RIP.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Dzra: Your evolutionary sense on Batterskull makes sense to me. The one deviation I'd throw out there is that these decks are playing double Batterskull. Generally decks are able to deal with one, but the second will often be surprising. My BUG testing partner also tells me that Batterskull is rough for him, when coupled with STP's on his Tarmogoyfs. However, it's a lot of cards to give up, whereas one Entreat or Blood Moon might just have the same end effect.
exallium: Batterskull doesn't seem to shut down 12 Post, but I think it has some validity against BUG. Was there another match up you were thinking of?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
exallium
The thing about ANT is that the deck is designed to be resilient and able to handle itself later in the game. This late game longevity does not solely rest on Past in Flames, but it is a huge enabler. Rest in Peace forces the player to play the short game, essentially only giving him one-time use of each spell he's holding. While he is more than capable of going off with this shorting of resources, there's no "reset" button for that player anymore. I am very much on the side of "counter the enablers" vs. Storm decks. Basically, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, and Ad Nauseaum. None of these cards are blue. The blue cards in the deck are generally brainstorm, ponder, gitaxian probe, and sometimes preordain. I don't think that bringing in a hard counter that forces us to fetch red mana to counter a spell that doesn't potentially win them the game is the right thing to be doing. Given our deck relies on us having the stronger end-game, Rest in Peace is a definite inclusion.
As for Swords, the kryptonite of this matchup for miracles is Xanthrid Swarm, as we can no longer interact with our opponent, save having a counter-top lock on the board, at which point we are probably winning anyhow. Boarding out our only reliable ways to deal with this card (save terminus, I don't remember the exact boarding plan, but I can see how terminus could be justified, though moreso vs TES), is an easy way to get ourselves killed. Furthermore, Dark Confidant is a pain, and I'd rather the storm player not be drawing two cards per turn, given that outside of vclique, we don't have the means to represent a strong clock until later in the game.
RE: Swords - I don't disagree with your points on Xantid Swarm and Confidant, but I still stand by that 3 Swords are unnecessary and that 2 will suffice. The primary point for this is that we are playing the extra copies of Ponder which will navigate us towards our copies of Swords. Once we find the first STP, Snapcaster also becomes an extension of what we are looking for.
RE: Your philosophy on ANT - Here's where I do disagree. I don't think that JUST countering the enablers is enough against a deck as powerful as ANT. I agree that stopping Wish, Tutor, etc is one of the strongest daggers we can throw at them, but you also have to understand that the deck doesn't just suddenly draw all these enablers off the top and kill you. There's a lot of construction and setup that goes into this process and stopping even one of those cantrips will set them back enough to hopefully allow us to resolve CounterTop. Against this combo deck, our goal for this turn is to make to the next turn alive. Hitting their Brainstorms and Ponders might let us see another draw step that could be that crucial Counterbalance needed to lock up the game. Also, postboard, what's wrong with having to fetch red mana against a deck that doesnt play Wasteland, especially when we're boarding out all of our WW spells? I am not saying Rest in Peace is not bad in this matchup. I definitely advocate having one copy. I just feel that the copy of REB and Pyroblast are stronger than RIP and the 3rd STP because they allow us to attack the ANT deck on an additional axis. You said it yourself, getting to Counterbalance seals the game, and having an instant speed counter for their gas feels a lot more secure than the 2nd copy of RIP.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AnziD
I'm fucking dumb, I meant to post this:
"Also, just polling this out there - using Einherjer's 75, against ANT would you guys board in REB/Pyroblast? I noticed in the SCG article that Philipp does not do this, and I feel strongly against this. I think the emphasis on RIP is to strong, as well as the number of STP left in. In other words, I think the changes to Philipp's sideboarding schema as following is appropriate:
-1 STP
-1 RIP
+1 REB
+1 Pyroblast
Can I get feedback on this?"
Sorry about the confusion. Obviously we want as many RIPs as possible against Dredge.
That makes much more sense!
My boarding is also different vs ANT/TES than Ein's. I also want to preface this by saying I have little experience playing against ANT, but TONS of experience playing against the best TES pilots. Cook and his TES playing friends are at most events that I attended, and TES is easily the combo deck that I have played against the most. I also used to have 2 friends that played the deck religiously and tested with/against TES with them a lot.
Against ANT:
-4 Terminus
-3/4 StpS
-2 Entreat
-1 Judgment
+1 EE
+1 Staticaster
+2 Fluster
+1 Relic
+1/2 RIP
+3 REB
+1 Counterspell
TES:
-2 Terminus
-4 Stps
-2 Entreat
-1 Judgment
+1 EE
+1 Staticaster
+2 Fluster
+1 Relic
+3 REB
+1 Counterspell
A few notes:
- ANT does not run emtpy MD and will not board it in against the deck that runs 4-6 sweepers.
- TES will still occasionally have to wish for empty in post board games. Most of the games I lose to TES with miracles is when they probe me turn 1, see I dont have force and make like 10 goblins and kill me. Having 4 terminus in your deck does not help against this THAT much. The upside of happening to topdeck/find a terminus in a couple turns is not worth having all 4 in your deck.
- Xantid Swarm or bob? Most ANT and TES run swarm these days. Its a 2 of, and good pilots like Cook don't even bring it against miracles, because the real battle is over top/CB. I like having EE, staticaster, and 2 terminus, as outs to swarm as well as empty. StP is NOT worth keeping in. Terminus is just better in the TES MU since it pulls double duty.
- Since ANT will not empty against you, you don't need terminus, and but leaving in more than 1 stps (as well as EE and staticasticer) against their 2of xantid swarm (which you can also counter) is pretty bad. Stp does have the very slight upside of being usable on your clique to gain 3 life in response to a tendrils. But that is really really really narrow.
- TES has been running needle lately to combat CB/top lock. I don't think SBing differently is worth doing, but just be aware of this.
- ANT sometimes has carpet of flowers. This card sucks. Having 2 EE is nice for this, but bringing in disenchant just for that probably not worth it.
- GY hate: Both decks use the GY somewhat, ANT much more so. RIP is still sometimes useless though. I like relic over it in the MU.
- REBs: REBs are not great here. I do think not playing them is wrong though. Not playing them means you have way worse cards like StpS #2-4 or Entreat in your deck. Just fire off REBs at every cantrip you can without leaving yourself too exposed. Their cantrips give them a lot of power, and give them ways to find discard, or decays which make our plan less good.
- This should be obvious, but dont clique them in the draw step unless you have a very very good reason to. Use it EoT, or in response to a long ritual chain.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheArchitect
TES:
-2 Terminus
-4 Stps
-2 Entreat
-1 Judgment
+1 EE
+1 Staticaster
+2 Fluster
+1 Relic
+3 REB
+1 Counterspell
TES is much more likely than ANT to go for Empty the Warrens and they are less likely to be relying on many cantrips to combo off. I love REBs against ANT, but I think they are somewhat lackluster against TES. I'd maybe bring in one or two REBs, but I think it's dangerous to cut any Terminus against TES and I wouldn't go below two Plows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheArchitect
- This should be obvious, but dont clique them in the draw step unless you have a very very good reason to. Use it EoT, or in response to a long ritual chain.
I think Clique is a really complicated card to cast correctly. You not only have to decide when to cast it, but who to target. Against Storm, I would probably follow these loose guidelines (emphasis on loose since it's difficult to pin down every situation):
- If I have no Counterbalance on board, no Venser in hand, and no countermagic (ie I have nothing to spend mana on except Clique), and it is the mid-to-late game then I'll lean towards casting Clique targeting them in their draw. This is because once they have several land in play, they can play around Vendilion Clique rather easily by casting Infernal (or BWish) first and then holding priority and casting all their mana. Early in the game (before they have 3-4 mana sources in play), they can't play around Clique like this, so it's fine to hold it until EoT or they cast a Ritual.
- If I have more productive/devastating ways to spend mana during their turn (ie Counterbalance, counter magic, Venser, etc) then I'll wait until EoT to cast Clique. Clique during their draw and bottoming business is good, but if you have a counter or Venser then that's almost always just better.
- If they didn't play any spells during their turn (especially if they didn't even cantrip) then I'll strongly consider targeting myself with Clique, especially if I have access to Karakas, multiple Cliques, or if my hand is just on the weak side.
