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WotC judge chat says nope for Thespian's Stage, it would would copy with 0 counters and die. The loyalty counters starting amount only happens when it enters the battlefield. This is why you can cheat around dark depths. Vesuva will work.Quote:
Originally Posted by maCHOOga
I'm considering splashing white just for containment priest if I don't run show and tell. The card does heavy lifting against non omni/storm combo that grip doesn't hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
@ nice run!
First song of the dryad combo seems nice:)
But yeah you have to find a target for it..
Like you said sometimes it's better to play standard plays like copying a land with vesuva but yes its allowes to copy some nice tricks if i understand it right.
I just dont understand why you not play mono g if you cut BS and SnT..i mean that's why you want to play blue if you can play those cards..
If you cut BS and SnT you should play mono G..
And 3 BS is just really sad ..i mean play 4 or 0..
It's not casual..it's legacy..
I understand your passion, and maybe my observation is due to speaking with native English speakers too often, but you assume much. I have had great success with the deck where the only blue card in it is brainstorm, no flusterstorms and I have only run 3 brainstorms many times to top tournament finishes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
You are running a combo deck reliant on your current mana, which will vary from 2-20. That variance means bricks in your hand, that hinder your plan, are lethal. Brainstorm fixes this. All the suggested cards (sylvan library, ancient stirrings and others) are almost always not at instant-speed, which is the fundamental trait of the blue list. I know of these cards. I have tested them exclusively. Mentioning them multiple times doesn't make that testing less valid. Without reasons to re-test them, I see no reason why they are now good. The deck plays best when reactionary, almost exclusively EOT.
My interest in Mono Green was increased with Warping Wail's printing, allowing for more EOT plays, and now Grapple with the Past has me very intrigued, giving you a brainstorm-similar play with serious outplay potential (counter one drs activation, anti-surgical, return chasm after sacrificing it) at a low cost. My critique of Mono Green wasn't the colors, it was the steps/phases it played in.
@rocklee
Sorry but 10-5 isn't a nice run and this just shows me how bad your choices are..
3 BS is wrong in legacy..I don't care about your testing.
And please don't judge people just because they try to write english correctly..maybe they are trying to learn it..
I'm confused about your disagreement with Rock. You said nice run, then because you two disagreed on a point of his decklist, you then say "no it isn't a nice run"Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
On the point of brainstorm. It can be a great tool to clean up bad draws, it can also lead to being locked into your next 2 draws. I highly doubt it is 100% incorrect to run 3 at times. I would doubt that running 1 or 2 is ever correct though.
Personally I'm an advocate for mono green or green with a light white splash. I run two Savannah to enable two copies of rest in peace and two copies of sacred ground. That is all I have for the white splash for because those two cards give me what I need in the matches they are meant for. I don't think there are better green options even though one may suggest that having access to four cards post board isn't worth it, I may as well not splash white.
On the other side. I am not sure why the "Native English" comment was posted but it was likely unnecessary Rock. Keep in mind that people from other countries often know 3 or 4 languages relatively well to the point of holding up medium conversation, if you felt like some thing was lost it's likely more appropriate to ask for clarification and teach them so they do in fact learn.
Mono green has pros and cons that I am not going to be able to speak about intelligently.
I guess having some extra lines available from Song plus Vesuva can't be bad, but it can't ever really be good, right? This deck wins with a superior endgame of hardcast Eldrazi. The other player loses because he brought a knife to a gun fight. According to Rock's own testimony, the deck had all the usual winning lines available in the subset of games where the Vesuva value copy was possible. I surmise that the green O Ring might not be worth it.
Throughout the thread, Rock has emphasized the value of testing and data over theory and conjecture, and in principle I must agree. However, as a newcomer, I have a lot of experimentation yet to do, and brute force experimentation is not humanly possible given the card pool. Experiment is always conducted to investigate hypotheses, which are formed on theoretical grounds, so I think the best thing for newcomers like me is to develop a sound understanding of what this deck really does. With that done, experimentation can be done more efficiently, which is good considering how time consuming it is. So please correct me where I'm wrong.
Posts, Karakas, and Eye are the base game winning combination, requiring no cards in hand or nonland permanents, immune to counters. There are sub combos along the way that can win for less mana, but this is the flagship one. It's so hard to disrupt that it doesn't feel like other combos. It plows through control decks, mostly, due to this. They are poorly equipped either to race or to disrupt it. So where other combo runs discard or defensive counters, Turbo does not for the win requires no protection except against Wasteland. Similarly where other combo fears Reanimator pairings since that deck is both faster and more disruptive than other combo, every combo deck is Reanimator to us (at least G1).
What puts control into the deck is the relationship to aggro, which in Legacy today means tempo, Eldrazi, and Jund. Where other combo can beat those creatures on speed alone, we bring tools to interact with their clock like Repeal, Chasm, Wail, etc, as well as some stuff to reduce this problem, like those cheaper non-Emrakul win cons alluded to above, and Show and Win.
Accordingly, I'll be looking for a MD that just functionally does what I want, stopping Wasteland and getting Cavern into Titan on turn 4 often. It's the sideboard that will receive the most attention. I'm looking for cards to make the combo matchups winnable, fight the few cards that are haymakers like Moon and Price, and resist troublemaker cards like T1 Chalice on 1 and Hymn to Tourach. Once I have a pool of candidates I'll start testing. Suggestions are welcome, I'll share data from the results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mykatdied
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
Per these statements, my mentioning of English as 1st and/or proficient language was only an assumption because the mindset of "I have no testing, nor do I care to do some, but I have a strong unwavering opinion" was conveyed in the phrase:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
"And 3 BS is just really sad ..i mean play 4 or 0.. It's not casual..it's legacy.."
I gave the benefit of the doubt, that the speaker was learning English and assumed I had lost the meaning in translation. Had such a statement come from a person I know to be fluent in English, my response would be more akin to "Clearly you have no interest in playing a competitive deck. Feel free to play whatever you want, and I will be content knowing your victories could always have been more frequent."
Of all the slots in the deck, I doubt the fourth Brainstorm is the weakest. If we use Rock's builds as a metric, more of those play 4 than 3. If we applied statistical weights according to event size and placing, I doubt the data would be conclusively on the side of 3 BS. The deck has run Ponder in the past, so 5 might even be the right number. I'd run Ponder in a second if I weren't constrained into making a lot of colorless land drops.
I'm going to test the white Leyline against the Hymn decks and Storm. My idea against Storm is that they need Chain to bounce it, but can't strip my Swan or Fluster beforehand. Their backup goblin plan sinks to a Tabernacle. The games I tet this configuration should be won, right?
Let me begin with, I run Gw. I ran leyline as a concession to how bad the storm match up can be. Between discard decks and no countermagic to help stop the combo I felt that I needed something. The issue with running leyline of Sanctity against storm is that, you HAVE to have it in your opening hand or it's way too slow. This means you need to mulligan to it. If you mulligan to it you either give up explosive hands that are more likely to win, or you are unlikely to have the necessary countermagic to stop the chain of vapor before they bounce leyline. If you give them 4 turns to dig before you can fine these things it is not difficult for them to be able to ad naseum to find the bounce spell and then kill you, or be able to build enough mana to use multiple infernal tutors to not only find chain of vapor but also the kill. I found that my best bet was usually a combination of tax effects, plus graveyard dumping. Grafdigger's Cage can go a long way in that match as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
I've run white Leylines in a couple of decks before, most successfully in Omnitell, so I'm used to using them. It really helps when you have Brainstorm to keep useless copies away from your grip, as well as countermagic to protect them.
I'm not the type of player to engage in idle speculation, and fortunately Leyline numbers are easy to crunch since they happen so early in the game. With the assumption that we definitely win games where we have a Leyline, blue mana, and a counter to defend the Leyline, we get these from the hypergeometric distribution (thank you deck-u-lator):
Chance of Leyline in hand: 39.9% on 7 cards, 35.1% on 6 cards, 30.1% on 5 cards, 24.7% on 4 cards.
Chance of Leyline + blue source + counterspell with 10 blue sources and 4 counters: total 23.1% mulling from 7 to 3
Same with 6 counterspells: 29.9%
Including Brainstorm and SDT as virtual counterspells: 41.1% when 4 are boarded in, 55.2% when 6 are boarded in
...so getting the Leyline is not the problem, the problem is getting the counterspell after the Leyline makes the numbers icky. I simplified things, for example not calculating the probability that the library manipulation actually finds a counterspell, not looking for a second blue source to cast it on Turn 2 if it's found, not accounting for the card drawn G3 presumably on the draw, etc.
There's also the consideration that my Storm opponent is probably not going to be looking out for a Leyline from a UG Cloudpost deck, since these are much more widely known for playing the 12 counters plan, the GY hate plan, or the resistor plan. I agree that the resistors would probably be better against Storm specifically, but since we can't power them out T1 like the other decks playing them, they need to survive a Storm deck untapping with an Underground Sea in play.
If we accept the premise that a Storm player surprised by a white Leyline G2 loses that game (that is, ignoring the probability that I fail to find one in all that mulling or that he wins regardless), though, along with some of the above simplifying assumptions, and assume I lose 100% of G1s, then boarding Leylines + 6 counters would give Cloudpost a barely positive Storm matchup. About a 55.2% positive Storm matchup, though obviously with all the assumptions that number is not precise.
@ some storm hate
A friend of mine tried to hate storm with 3-4 leyline and 3-4 mindbreaktraps..As a storm player if he had it it's hard to handle.
The only problem here is do we really want to waste 6-8 slots just for storm? Of course leyline is fine against Discard like hymn, but the problem here is if we don't have the card in the first 7 then it's just getting bader if we mulligan just for leyline.
If some have a Stormbased Meta then you should use 8-10 slots maybe..but in a big open meta you should just ignore storm
@ Julian123
Yes i see your point! I'm really sorry for that!
Greets dingo
1. Songs of the Dryad:
I tried that card for a few games in my Knight&Gitrog build. Don't know if i'm keeping it yet, but it's a solid card. This is a catch-all answer against any problematic permanent, and that's the reason to play it. The interaction with Vesuva is nice and can sometimes be relevant, but it's just a little bonus, nothing more. Without the Vesuva interaction it's basically a green O-Ring, and that card sees fringe play. With the bonus it might be good enough - or not, but i won't dismiss it without testing it.
2. Leyline:
I'm playing 3 copies in my board, for a while now. I can't mulligan to it with just 3 copies, but it's not the only way to beat Storm. Warping Wail and Crop Rotation are both very good cards against them.
The biggest problem i see with many 12post decks is that you can't close the game against Storm fast enough, especially not without tapping out on your turn. That's why i like Dark Depths so much against them, i just don't tap out at all and kill them in their end step if they don't go for it. Dark Depths is usually not faster than Storm (although it can happen, and is my best way to win Game 1), but if you have just 1-2 pieces of interaction they have to play around, they might not be able to go off before you do. Crop Rotation doubles as an answer and a win condition that way.
The Leylines just win games against Storm. More than once i had an opponent concede to a Leyline when he didn't expect it. And even if they do, they usually have just 2 answers for it, it's not that easy to find them and might just give me enough time to kill them.
I don't play any Spheres, because they expect them. Every Storm deck will board in Abrupt Decay.
And the Leylines are good in other matchups too - especially against Burn, sometimes against discard.
Well it looks like the candelabra boat has just set sail. I hope you got on board. According to MTGO stocks, the Candelabra buyout occurred last night and they are now $675 each? That is just bananas!
I bought an MP one yesterday for $300. TCG still has 12 copies listed, and while the prices are a little higher, they haven't really skyrocketed. And "market price" is still listed at $384.Quote:
Originally Posted by maCHOOga
I think that until copies actually sell at $675 each, I don't believe this buyout stuff anymore.
EDITED TO ADD: TCG mid, which is not only viewable through TCG collection tracker, lists $675, which I think is where MTGStocks may get a lot of their information.
I just had a crazy idea: Doubling Cube. While Candelabra has a lot of secondary utility — mitigating Port, untapping Maze, etc. — Doubling Cube can do a respectable impression of Candle's primary function as an accelerant. Perhaps it could be a better budget alternative for folks who don't have their Candles yet.
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The card is neat, but I remember math from when playing slaver in vintage 10 years back, that you only start net'ing positive at 8 mana thresholds, meaning you need 8+ mana to even make the card worth running.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
I'm more a fan of Doubling Season, since if you copy planeswalkers with Songs->Vesuva they have double loyalty on them and you get 2 tokens instead of 1.
It does look like a Candelabra buyout is in progress. Maybe it's different from earlier buyouts because I still see plenty of Candelabra for sale at the old prices. I'd like to pick up another one, but as my Magical dealings this month have already included a Tropical Island, one Candelabra, and a Tabernacle, my resources are a bit depleted. I think one is enough for me anyway, I'm running Trinket Mage.
The question of whether it's worth the slots is of course primary. As my meta is unusual and isolated (I play in Beijing, and plan to head out to Chiba for the GP this year), I can work publicly on this forum without much worry that the local Chinese players will stumble across this forum, notice my plans, and get an edge on me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
OK, so first we need to identify what cards come out against each of the DTB, and I'm going to throw in a few decks that I know I will need to play against (since my meta is closed and well known to me).
Grixis Tempo: -Crop Rot -SnT(blasts) -Bojuka Bog
Miracles: -Crop Rot -SnT(blasts) -Bog -Chasm -Wail
Lands: -Chasm -Wail -Ugin
ANT: -Chasm -Trinket -Needle -E.E. -Repeal -Ugin
Eldrazi Stompy: -Wail -Repeal -Ugin
Infect: -SnT -Crop Rot
Shardless BUG -Chasm -Wail
BUG Delver Stifle: -Crop Rot -Trinket -Chasm
BUG Delver Hymn: -Crop Rot -Chasm
DnT: -Chasm
Sneaky Show: -Chasm -E.E. -Trinket
Food Chain: -Wail -Bog -Repeal
Once we know what should come out from a typical deck against all of these, we'll know how many live cards we want to bring in for the matchups, and we'll see whether it's feasible to meet the Storm menace with 10 cards. So, if you can think of any other cards typically run that should come out against each MU, or there's a card you take out for them that I missed, please let me know.
And yes, I do need a rock solid plan against Food Chain, one of the best players in the area has dedicated his life to that deck. He's ferocious with it.
Not counting the turn you play it, you only need 7 mana to begin netting mana, which is pretty easy for the deck to hit. So between Ugin and Emrakul, we have:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
(7-3)x2 = 8
(8-3)x2 = 10
(9-3)x2 = 12
(10-3)x2 = 14
(11-3)x2 = 16
It's definitely no Candelabra, but it's only a 2 drop and 1/30th the price for people new to the deck.
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I never board out SnT against the decks u mentioned... I board out SnT only if it can benefit my opponet in a way that i could lose (mirror, sneak, etc.) and even in these situations u can still win through it g1 with a bit of luck and good timing. In my opinion snt is one of our best cards. Its almost never dead, for example sometimes i play snt without a good target in hand to clear A counter for crop or another spell i need to resolve (they always counter it if they can and if they dont know what u're holding...). They can protect your hand against discard as they almost always take snt first (even if u dont have a target4it) leaving bs or sdt in your hand. Dont 4get the old snt-cloudpost (or a utility land) play, which is valid more often than i thought when i started playing. Sometimes snt-ing stuff that Doesnt work2well with it (like ulamog) can win u the game or stall long enough...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
Ok enough of my snt propaganda :tongue: