[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

On the topic of Lim-Dul's Vault: I do not reccommend adding it to your deck. There are a lot of reasons I can give if you ask me to, but the main issues I have with it are that on its own it doesn't make an immediate impact on the gamestate (ie more cards in hand, Storm's version of "board presence", I would say), for which it demands more resources.

As for Burning Wish, let me just say this. Having played the 16-cantrip build, my average gameplan has become something along the lines of cantrip/discard T1, cantrip+discard T2, win T3. This is simple because it requires only 2 colors (UB), and my mana base fully supports those two colors. At any time I can count on my deck to reliably produce lands giving me the mana I need for my early game work, allowing me to save my Petals for PiF or for post-Ad Nauseam action. Including Burning wish as a key card means that suddenly your deck depends on three colors to reliably produce you a win on an average of Turn 3. This requires you to either crack your petals early for Wish, or for you to use lands like your Badlands which will not allow you to fulfill all of the functions of your deck. Pre-combo turn, running a 2cmc prep spell cuts down on your actions-per-turn, making it much more difficult to dig+discard T2, say. During the combo turn, BW is nice as long as you can pay for it, but we're not worried about combo turn, we're worried about getting there. Also, this may be a non-issue, but if you're concerned about discard against you, Preordain is better in that sense than Wish because it puts things on top of your deck, safe and sound, instead of right smack in your hand for everyone to know it's there.

tl;dr, other decks, like TES, are faster than we are, but we are still competitive because we have an advantage of our own: disruption. We can't play all the same cards that they do, because we have a different gameplan. Balancing between dig and disruption pre-combo is something that makes us special.

If speed above all else is your objective, don't hesitate to consider other, faster combo decks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoldenCid

@Secretly.A.Bee : having decay, creature removal and so on i felt like c of vapor overlaps my side choices. Maybe i'm missing something.

---

Chain of Vapor is versatile. You may use it on anything from Lodestone Golem to Iona, Shield of Pure Win. Also, it's nice to have against Thalia, esp. when they have MoR. You may Decay EOT (Mothered) and then CoV during your turn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bjholmes3

On the topic of Lim-Dul's Vault: I do not reccommend adding it to your deck. There are a lot of reasons I can give if you ask me to, but the main issues I have with it are that on its own it doesn't make an immediate impact on the gamestate (ie more cards in hand, Storm's version of "board presence", I would say), for which it demands more resources.

---

Have you tried the card for long enough? Because two-mana instant (though poor man's) Vampiric Tutor/Doomsday is quite solid. I'm really surprised that you dislike the card, even as a fifth Infernal Tutor it isn't bad. Otoh, I like your reasoning on cantrips version and the firm manabase. Just that every time I play the Preordain list I just cantrip into oblivion...

I'll admit, I haven't given Tim's Vault much of a chance. I just don't feel comfortable with the thing. I mean, like I said, having an Index on steroids is nice and all, but I dislike it for the same reason I prefer Ponder to aforementioned Index. I mean, consider the following. We are a shuffle-heavy deck, given our propensity for fetches and for tutors. Combined with our desired combo turn, let's say that we'll only ever see 2 or 3 cards From the Vault, at best (I arrived at this figure assuming EoT2 LDV, draw 1st T3, 2nd if it goes to T4 and we don't shuffle, and cantrip at some point into 3rd), and these are cards that take us time and resources to access.

Now, I'm all about mana efficiency. With those same resources, I could run a T2 Brainstorm, fetch-shuffle, play Ponder, all of which adds two new cards to my hand, dumps unwanted stuff like Tendrils or extra lands, and potentially fixes my next two draws. Sure, those draws probably won't have as much oomph as they would have coming from LDV, but it's powerful enough for this deck to succeed. Or, say it's g2/3 and my opponent has stuff I really don't want to see the light of day. I can T1 Discard, T2 Cantrip/Discard, which in my experience would generally leave me pretty safe to combo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bjholmes3

I'll admit, I haven't given Tim's Vault much of a chance. I just don't feel comfortable with the thing. I mean, like I said, having an Index on steroids is nice and all, but I dislike it for the same reason I prefer Ponder to aforementioned Index. I mean, consider the following. We are a shuffle-heavy deck, given our propensity for fetches and for tutors. Combined with our desired combo turn, let's say that we'll only ever see 2 or 3 cards From the Vault, at best (I arrived at this figure assuming EoT2 LDV, draw 1st T3, 2nd if it goes to T4 and we don't shuffle, and cantrip at some point into 3rd), and these are cards that take us time and resources to access.

Now, I'm all about mana efficiency. With those same resources, I could run a T2 Brainstorm, fetch-shuffle, play Ponder, all of which adds two new cards to my hand, dumps unwanted stuff like Tendrils or extra lands, and potentially fixes my next two draws. Sure, those draws probably won't have as much oomph as they would have coming from LDV, but it's powerful enough for this deck to succeed. Or, say it's g2/3 and my opponent has stuff I really don't want to see the light of day. I can T1 Discard, T2 Cantrip/Discard, which in my experience would generally leave me pretty safe to combo.

---

I won't argue with you, as you're definitely right on the cantrips matter, esp. if it fits your playstyle. However having a instant-speed, cmc2 Doomsday possibility shouldn't be overlooked, even if it's a card disadvantage and a bit less effective than double cantrip. (Which configuration sadly can't be played from basic Island and basic Swamp if need for those lands arises.)

I urge you to give LDV a one more try, maybe just use a single one. I consider trying something similar. A build based on PiF, with eight fetches, two or three basics, lots of cantrips, and one of LDV plus AdN/EtW might be viable. I still can't decide which one of the secondary/tertiary engines I wish to use, but seen how EtW is working less and less in my meta (due to B-Skulls, Pulses, hordes, PiF combo and Deeds all over the place), I may just speed up the deck, give up the EtW plan and move it to sb keeping it for tempo matches... I read that turn2 AdN is > turn 3 EtW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bjholmes3

On the topic of Lim-Dul's Vault: I do not reccommend adding it to your deck. There are a lot of reasons I can give if you ask me to, but the main issues I have with it are that on its own it doesn't make an immediate impact on the gamestate (ie more cards in hand, Storm's version of "board presence", I would say), for which it demands more resources.

As for Burning Wish, let me just say this. Having played the 16-cantrip build, my average gameplan has become something along the lines of cantrip/discard T1, cantrip+discard T2, win T3. This is simple because it requires only 2 colors (UB), and my mana base fully supports those two colors. At any time I can count on my deck to reliably produce lands giving me the mana I need for my early game work, allowing me to save my Petals for PiF or for post-Ad Nauseam action. Including Burning wish as a key card means that suddenly your deck depends on three colors to reliably produce you a win on an average of Turn 3. This requires you to either crack your petals early for Wish, or for you to use lands like your Badlands which will not allow you to fulfill all of the functions of your deck. Pre-combo turn, running a 2cmc prep spell cuts down on your actions-per-turn, making it much more difficult to dig+discard T2, say. During the combo turn, BW is nice as long as you can pay for it, but we're not worried about combo turn, we're worried about getting there. Also, this may be a non-issue, but if you're concerned about discard against you, Preordain is better in that sense than Wish because it puts things on top of your deck, safe and sound, instead of right smack in your hand for everyone to know it's there.

tl;dr, other decks, like TES, are faster than we are, but we are still competitive because we have an advantage of our own: disruption. We can't play all the same cards that they do, because we have a different gameplan. Balancing between dig and disruption pre-combo is something that makes us special.

If speed above all else is your objective, don't hesitate to consider other, faster combo decks.

---

you are right about vault, but i think that burning wish is a really good card, but is a meta choice, i mean, with hatebears bw, or tnt, is just better, i mean, bw for virtues ruin and you can win, with ubg ant you cant beat a teeg md, but the problem with tnt is that splashing green for decay is awful with the manabase

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaberTooth

you are right about vault, but i think that burning wish is a really good card, but is a meta choice, i mean, with hatebears bw, or tnt, is just better, i mean, bw for virtues ruin and you can win, with ubg ant you cant beat a teeg md, but the problem with tnt is that splashing green for decay is awful with the manabase

---

That's where Disfigure/ET/CoV may work better. After all, if your main concern are bears (moreover taxing ones) and not Counterbalance, than CoV is clearly better as it costs half the price, is on color and works as a storm engine if it matters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bjholmes3

I'll admit, I haven't given Tim's Vault much of a chance. I just don't feel comfortable with the thing. I mean, like I said, having an Index on steroids is nice and all, but I dislike it for the same reason I prefer Ponder to aforementioned Index. I mean, consider the following. We are a shuffle-heavy deck, given our propensity for fetches and for tutors. Combined with our desired combo turn, let's say that we'll only ever see 2 or 3 cards From the Vault, at best (I arrived at this figure assuming EoT2 LDV, draw 1st T3, 2nd if it goes to T4 and we don't shuffle, and cantrip at some point into 3rd), and these are cards that take us time and resources to access.

Now, I'm all about mana efficiency. With those same resources, I could run a T2 Brainstorm, fetch-shuffle, play Ponder, all of which adds two new cards to my hand, dumps unwanted stuff like Tendrils or extra lands, and potentially fixes my next two draws. Sure, those draws probably won't have as much oomph as they would have coming from LDV, but it's powerful enough for this deck to succeed. Or, say it's g2/3 and my opponent has stuff I really don't want to see the light of day. I can T1 Discard, T2 Cantrip/Discard, which in my experience would generally leave me pretty safe to combo.

---

I've been testing with Lim-Dul's Vault recently, and the more I test with it, the more I like it. Here's why: It's not a weakened Vampiric Tutor because it usually tutors for more than one card. I often end up in the situation with this deck where I need a Lion's Eye Diamond + any ritual to win, or an Infernal Tutor + any ritual, or Infernal Tutor + any land. In these situations it's usually possible to find both of these in a 5-card Lim-Dul's Vault stack at the end of my opponent's turn, draw into one, and then Gitaxian Probe (or Brainstorm or something) into the other so I can win on my turn. Any cantrip that you have in your hand allows Lim-Dul's vault to tutor more cards into your hand quickly. For this reason, I don't think the comparisons to Vampiric Tutor are perfect - the card often has a different role.

I'm not saying Lim-Dul's Vault is perfect, and it definitely has its weaknesses - but being able to tutor for more than one card can get you out of some insanely bad situations. It has been better in my testing than I'd expected it to be.

LDV feels poor at first but the more you use it the more fluid it feels. Being EoT is also often just amazing and with any cantrip in hand it can go off the same turn. I really came to love that card after dismissing it initially. Its also good at finding removal for teeg and friends.

I've been running 1 CoV main for awhile now and lately ive also been testing 1 cabal pit as well since it dodges mom and isnt taxed by thalia.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tombstalker

LDV feels poor at first but the more you use it the more fluid it feels. Being EoT is also often just amazing and with any cantrip in hand it can go off the same turn. I really came to love that card after dismissing it initially. Its also good at finding removal for teeg and friends.

I've been running 1 CoV main for awhile now and lately ive also been testing 1 cabal pit as well since it dodges mom and isnt taxed by thalia.

---

I like the Cabal Pit idea.

That's a peculiar choice. What specifically are you trying to hit with the pit?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bjholmes3

That's a peculiar choice. What specifically are you trying to hit with the pit?

---

Hatebear.

As in Thalia or Teeg specifically? Because I would say Karakas is a better choice for those buggers.

Heart of the Storm Vol. 5 - Hero's Come Back! is finally online on MTG TheSource! Check it out!

THx once more!!!
I'll keep chain of vapor to side in against hatebears at the same time i keep massacre / virtue's ruin for wishing.

Sorry but i'm to fixed to BW builds i prefer answers to speed. :)

So...TES or ANT¿?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umRU6iYO0R4

Quote:

---

bjholmes3
As in Thalia or Teeg specifically? Because I would say Karakas is a better choice for those buggers.

---

Ya those mostly although other annoying non legendary hatebears too. Karakas is straight better for those and I do run one in the board but the on color of pit does matter at times for faster wins game 1. Its just an idea not sure ill stick with it yet or not but so far Ive liked upping the land count with something that doubles as an out. The life loss is also not really relevant.

Karakas doesn't add black and cannot remove Cannonist. Not that I gonna snap-swap one dual for Pit, but I still find it interesting!

Guys guys guys. I solved every hatebear problem for all time a couple pages ago. Teferi's Realm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thefringthing

Guys guys guys. I solved every hatebear problem for all time a couple pages ago. Teferi's Realm.

---

Can't tell if trolling or...

Has to be trolling. That card isn't even remotely close to being effective.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bjholmes3

Has to be trolling. That card isn't even remotely close to being effective.

---

Three mana kinda-WoG is not exactly ineffective. It's no Curse of the Swine...