I'd love to hear your thoughts on the storm match up with Nic Fit. I won't have time to test more than a couple games against it before this weekend.
~Jeff
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I'd love to hear your thoughts on the storm match up with Nic Fit. I won't have time to test more than a couple games against it before this weekend.
~Jeff
Yes, HoneyT, please share insight.
Absolutely what HoneyT said. Storm is a much better matchup than anything that plays Griselbrand and/or Emrakul. With my Punishing Fire list I am not afraid of Storm Combo. The first game is not positive but you can steal it. G2 and G3 are positive with the additional discard and Red Blasts and Extraction effects. Can't speak for other versions, though.
Besides Cabal Therapy // Thoughtseize your key cards are Scavenging Ooze and Liliana of the Veil - if you play her (which I would advice you to do). Liliana is a great follow up to your initial Discard and stops them from just topdecking and cantripping into a win again which they can do pretty quickly with all the Ponders, Brainstorms and Preordains they play. You might know that I am not a fan of Ooze in general but the Storm matchup convinced me to play him maindeck. If you have enough time Ooze stops Past in Flames which is a common win plan for them against Discard while putting a clock on them which makes Ad Nauseam worse (he also makes Cabal Rituals worse but that is not terribly important).
EDIT: I think when evaluating the combo matchup for Jeffs deck, scapewish is a better comparison than Pfire. Honey Ts style of Pfire lists can have 8+ dedicated combo hate cards, and no BW board. While scape (and jeffs deck) will have less problem with a game 1 show'd emrakul thanks to BW, but against storm, wont have 8-12 real cards to bring in against it.
I disagree with the Slaughter Games names for S&T and mono U.
Against S&T you want to name sneak attack. Heres why; generally speaking, these are the most scary resolved things, to the least scary resolved things:
1. Show in Griselbrand
2. Sneak in emrakul
3. Sneak in Griselbrand
4. Show in Emrakul
However post board, since we have REB and more discard the scariest "combo" they can assemble is, in order:
1. Sneak in emrakul
2. Sneak in Griselbrand
3. Show in Griselbrand
4. Show in Emrakul
Lets break it down.
1. A griselbrand with at least 1 draw 7 is near impossible to get off the board. But we have REB game 2, so show is less likely to resolve.
2. ~95% if the time we lose if this happens. There is no way to interact with this, and unlike show and tell, it is less sucestible to discard since they can just play sneak and pass while they look for fatty (if they have to). This is the scariest "combo" they can game 2.
3. Basically the same as option 2 but we can sometimes get super lucky, and hope they brick on their draws, or we happen to have them at low life and have a threat.
4. This isnt even that scary. It requires 2 cards so they cant top deck the win like they can with sneak, we also have REB AND wish for innocent blood.
Sneak attack is their best way to beat us game 2 and 3. Name Show and tell with therapy (so you dont lose on turn 1/2). Name sneak attack with the first Slaughter Games because that's gives them their best chance of actually winning, not the Emrakul.
Against U Omnitell, you want to name Enter the infinite. If that resolves (off dream halls, or omniscience) you lose. Taking out omniscience just means they will draw they just draw their deck then show in an emrakul, and protect it with a deck and SB full of countermagic, with the support of dreamhalls.
Without Enter, the only way they can win is to find their 1 of emrakul (if they even run it, which half them don't) and then resolve a show and tell and then pass the turn to you without you resolving BW>IB.
ANT is much easier to beat than TES. ANT you resolve a games naming Tendrils and they lose. You basically have them on a 3-4 turn clock if you get a BW. TES can fight through any of your hate. The only times I've beat TES have been with scapeshift, and they were when I drew the nuts. Its waaay worse in testing, but in practice I think I'm actually like 3-3 in rounds against TES with scapewish, and 1-1 of those were against Cook himself. But seriously, it was mostly luck and opponent error. I did have one humorous game 1 against TES were by turn 3 I destroyed all his mana rocks, made him discard his entire hand and did lethal in angry mountain damage.
Also, worth noting. Alot of game 1s TES will just go for empty on turn 1-2 if they can. Unlike most decks, nic fit actually has like 7+ game 1 answers to that plan (deed and BW>pyroclasm). Be careful though, if they do empty, and for some reason you still have a therapy, cast it naming silence the turn before you wipe the board.
My approach to beating combo with nic fit is different than it is with a deck like RUG or stoneblade. With nic fit, you have no fast clock. You can SB out basically anything that wont interact with combo for cards that will (even if its only slight interaction). Surgical extraction is a good example of this. In RUG you would never take out a goose to bring in surgical against sneak attack. You need the clock. In nic fit, you will win if the game drags on. You dont need the clock. You arent going to win by winning faster than they do. You are going to win by making them not be able to win, and then slowly beating down with Ewits and vets or something.
You know, the more I think about it - the worse the two Trinisphers in my side board seem.
Playing Surgical/Extirpate with my discard spells seems more powerful (that is what I see many others doing), my only worry is a lack of interaction when my opponent has a Leyline on the table.
Thoughts?
~Jeff
As a Miracles player myself, Nic Fit is definitely a matchup I feel comfortable against. I have all the tools to answer their threats, I have more manipulation than them, I have a combo that they have to prepare for regardless of if I have it available, and I feel safe Jacing them out. I have played on both ends of this matchup countless times (15x+ in competitive events at least) and I can safely say that:
1) Most Miracle players I faced in competitive events didn't play that well (it doesn't mean I don't face competent Miracle players outside those events)
2) Those players could still win games against prepared Nic Fit lists
3) I have never lost to a Nic Fit deck playing Miracles, and those include both good and bad Nic Fit players of all sorts (GB, Scape, BUG, GBw, Pod, Rector, NO)
4) Playing 4 copies of AD in your deck doesn't mean you can't lose to CB. It can still put you sufficiently far behind to put a game out of your grasp.
5) To any Nic Fit player that think they can get away popping Explorer vs. Miracle without falling behind, you probably haven't been on the Miracle end often...
It is almost always a mistake
Most Miracle players aren't good, it's a fact. The deck is difficult to master and requires in-depth knowledge of the Legacy metagame, fast decision-making, and a penchant for domination. Miracle won't die because of Abrupt Decay. The fact that the deck still plays CB is a testament to how strong it is in spite of a card like AD. The reason why it is still in there is because it is still the best card advantage engine of a 4Top deck. In summation, Miracles has as many tools against us as we do against them, they get the last word on what hits the board via counterspells, and they have the most manipulation. When you win against Miracles with Nic Fit it's because they bricked on answers.
I agree with Architect that EtI is the go-to card to Slaughter Game vs. Omniclash. Forcing them to find an Emrakul and a SnT is the right decision in almost every cases. As for SnT, it all depends on your hand, life total, and total amount of cards in your opponent's hand. Naming Emrakul and Sneak are both good options there.
As for Storm, It isn't a bad matchup by any means. Yes it is unpredictable and has a lot of potential against us, but the matchup is inversely proportional with time. We have the most disruption potential and the more it adds up, the more difficult it is for them to recover. Unlike SnT decks where they can dig themselves out of proactive disruption by finding the right 2 card combination, ANT and TES need to build up a significant storm count to win. They need cards to combo us out and time to deploy their cantrips (not always, but usually), and we need redundant disruption and enough time to deploy our disruption as well. That feeling you get in the early turns against a storm player is the same they get in the later turns with their depleted hands against a Nic Fit player.
Nic Fit vs. Storm is a bit like Miracles vs. RUG. Miracles has the most staying power and lock-out potential if it gets to a certain point in the game, and it has certain tools to accomplish that goal - It gets the last word. RUG has the most crippling power and disruption to win within a specific time frame or given a specific board state, but it gets significantly weaker as the game progresses - It gets the first word.
Given perfect hands on both sides, the first word tends to beat the last word.
Given statistical variance, the last word generally takes over the first word.
Overall, whoever has the best hand and makes the tightest plays without running into a wall generally wins.
@JeffHoogland,
Surgical is an essential compotent of Nic Fit's disruption suite. I won't re-explain in depth why but it has a lot to do with speed, versatility, and inherent synergy with TS/Therapy.
Leyline of Sanctity is a dent in our armor that has to be polished as much as possible. You can either try to go for a different angle of disruption in the form of counterspells or permanent hate, or you can find ways to deal with Leyline in time.
I deal with all combo decks using 4 GSZ, 4 BW, 4 Therapies, 4 Thoughtseize (3 main 1 side for BW), 4 REB, and 2 Surgical.
Green Sun's Zenith -> Gaddock Teeg to shut down most win conditions
-> Scavenging Ooze for a lock vs. GY decks
-> Deathrite Shaman for quick GY hate or as accelerant for BW and its targets
-> Eternal Witness for repeated disruption
Burning Wish -> Reverent Silence for Leyline
-> Tsunami for Miracles
-> Pyroclasm for EtW and creature-based combos (mainly Elves)
-> Innocent Blood for SnT Emrakul
12-Post is definitely manageable but it requires a stretch in our disruption suite in the form of Blood Moon, Wasteland, Ruination, etc... It represents such a small portion of any given meta that it is generally not a matchup worthy of consideration. Therefore, conceding to 12-post is rational.
So it was your list that I tested before, huh qweerios.
Ii know this because you are the only person ever I have seen put Tsunami in a list.
And Ii see why you did. I decided to test your list a little bit before joining the discussion and I caught a semi-compitant (read: remembered CB triggers immeadiatly instead of forgetting) by surprise with the card.
I find it quite ironic that Liliana of the Veil is flat out amazing against all the problem decks mentioned on the last pages (ANT, TES, Omnitell, Sneak and Show, Miracles) and yet people refuse to play her. She is an integral part of my game plan against the combo decks and one of the best threats available against Miracles.
So, a weird question: How is the "Mighty Quinn" match-up?
Someone in my meta has played it for god knows how long and im thinking about the match-up and I know RiP is an issue and that its run.
I never stopped playing her when I played this deck. I loved her in basically every MU. People always said she wasn't that good but she was always MVP for me. Especially in PFire listsQuote:
Originally Posted by Tao
I haven't tested it but based on my experiences with both decks I think it should be very positive, with any of the versions, except for Thune Combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by kavaki
Scapewish should have the best matchup. A win condition that works under Humility and access to Slaughter Games in G1 should make this almost a bye. Slaughter Games seems insanely good.
Punishing Fire should do well, too, though not as good. This is a matchup where I would be hesitant to trigger an Explorer. But I think they have a hard time ever winning the game because of Liliana, Deed and Decay supported by Therapies and Witnesses and G2/G3 you also have Slaughter Games.
- O-Ring is very bad against Deed and all their removal is bad against your EtB triggers.
- You can interact with them via Therapy/Thoughtseize but they can't interact with you except for Abeyance which is useful but not nearly as good as your Discard
- Humility is a concern but you have Deeds for that (and G2/G3 hopefully Golgari Charms). The trick is to use Deed during their EoT (always use Deed during their EoT in matchups like this), then main phase Witness it back so that a second copy of Humility doesn't screw you.
Good to know I am not alone with this!Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Alrighty here goes the Storm coaching:
Without being given specific scenarios and questions it's hard to give more than just general advice but I'll do my best. (Bear in mind this is for the Lily-less lists and she makes these matches even easier)
1. MULLIGAN HANDS WITHOUT INTERACTION. Period.
2. Learn what makes hands keepable/good in whichever Storm variant you're playing against. You're playing a Cabal Therapy deck. You need to learn what's important. On the play your best Therapy call is LED regardless. On the draw is where it gets trickier; assuming you get a turn. If all they've done is cantrip on turn one your best Therapy call is Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish. If they just pass and Brainstorm in response, they're most likely hiding business (AN,BW,IT), in which case Dark Ritual becomes the best name. There's a lot more mana in these decks than business spells so they need to protect those.
3. Play extraction effects. It's pretty easy to win when they can't. Also, don't be afraid to fire them off on a cantrip if they're Brainstorming in response to a discard spell. Messing up the top of their deck can really set them back.
4. Play Scavenging Ooze and Eternal Witness are the win conditions post board. Don't be afraid to trim the fat. You need to clock these decks.
Hope this helps. Any more questions or specific scenarios just ask.
Also, Tao; I've actually been on the Liliana plan for awhile now (more combo, less on-board decks in my meta now). I'm just having problems with Google and haven't been able to update my lists in my signature.
E witness is the green mages snapcaster in those match ups basically right? Get back more discard and extraction?
The Levin version was better tn at my weekly than any of this lists I've seen on this thread..
I would be interested to see a list TimHarding.
Somtime I hate not having Premium...
Arian posted his list on the last page. I like the idea of combining Jace and Fire in general and I like the fact that he is on the value plan, but I have two big concerns with the list:
- the mana base: Playing 3 Lilianas, 4 Jaces with 4 Groves, 2 Mountains and a Forest sounds adventurous for a deck with only 4 Explorers.
- the list is very thin on win conditions. For example how does he beat a deck that runs Punishing Fire, too (like Jund or Maverick). He just doesn't it seems to me. Neither G1 nor G2. They can Wasteland his Groves and use their Fire/Grove to shoot down his Planeswalkers and then?
/barn RE@Levin's list.
Tim Harding, I think that a large reason for why Levin's list is superior in your local meta is because it has Karn, and Karn seems really good against 12post, which IIRC your meta is inundated with. That's just my gut read without any actual further thoughts from you on what you liked.
/barn Tim's (HoneyT's) thoughts on vs storm, especially on Cabal Therapy names.
@Evan -- my experiences vs Sneak are just different, I guess. There have been multiple games where I take my opponent's Emrakuls, and then he's incapable of killing me with Griselbrand -- half the time they need to Intuition to actually find a Griselbrand, which means that they have a grand total of 2 Griselbrands for 14 points of life that they can actually do. From what I've seen, the Feldon's Cane effect of Emrakul is actually surprisingly important to Sneak. I agree that as long as you're bringing in 3+ REBs, Show and Tell isn't as big of a threat, but I'd rather attack on all angles rather than just focus on one (you focus on the enablers, I split my attention more between enablers and monsters). It's probably just a personal style thing, since we both have results with Scape vs Sneak.
RE@Liliana, I still say that I won't touch her outside of specific versions because I'd rather that me and my opponent both have cards in hand than neither of us do, since my cards are better than his cards. That being said, Punishing is one of those versions.
On a related topic, I think I'm going to actually give PFire a spin at my local tomorrow night. I've never actually tried Punishing Fit, and I think it's past time.
So proud of you. Kevin's all growed up. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
(Got a sick list for you too) :wink:
Yeah, what is your latest, while we're on the subject?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyT
Unrelatedly, I'm not sure I'm going to make it to Indy now. Apparently, what SCG doesn't tell you is that if you drop from an event, you don't get the 1 SCG point. So, when I thought I qualified at Philly, I actually didn't, and still have 14 points.
I do still have a potential out in the form of Jupiter on the 12th, which is an SCG elite IQ now -- but I NEED to at least top 16, or I don't get any SCG points. So.....pressure's on, I guess. I've still got Champs and DC, obviously, but I really would like to make the invitational. Ending the year with 14 points is gonna really suck, since they don't carry over from year to year.
If you plan to do Grand Prix D.C. it isnt in D.C. this time. Its a good 30 minute drive to the West in Dulles.
Place is kinda in the middle of nowhere-ish (right near a major airport though)
Just something to note since that topic was brought up.