Null Rod and needles are good too, but I don't want to sideboard out any small elves against miracles
and this is so exciting to hit Top with Grip and then to Surgical extract it :wink:
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Null Rod and needles are good too, but I don't want to sideboard out any small elves against miracles
and this is so exciting to hit Top with Grip and then to Surgical extract it :wink:
For sure you never side out any elves (keep scavenging ooze if you have it main). I side out 4 NO, 2 Hoof and 1 Cradle.Quote:
Originally Posted by EEk1TwEEk
Surgical extraction is great! You can disrupt drawing with top or target terminus in the graveyard while another copy is on the stack for its miracle trigger. However one needle or null rod disables all copies of top.
I don't use Null Rod and Needles just because Miracles often side-in 2 Engineered Explosives, that's why i play Grip.
I play Ooze in sideboard, i play Wren Run's Packmaster and daamn it's so good in mainboard!
I make Grixis pyromancer cry in game 1 and against miracles i always try to champion Visionary to draw an extra card after their terminus
But Null Rod shuts off Engineered Explosives too, plus is good versus Equipment and possibly even good versus LED combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by EEk1TwEEk
I'm waiting on my FBB Meekstone to come in, but I'll probably play this deck in a couple weeks. I'd love to hear other's ideas about Wren Run's Packmaster though, that seems very interesting (especially non-StP decks). Didn't Julian try Packmaster some time ago too?
The problem is really just resolving the bugger and whether or not it's needed to win. If resolved it's a card that overtakes most fair game states with relative impunity.
Lol, null rod really kills EE too (:
Packmaster is super good, trust me (:
I really liked Packmaster over a 4th Natural Order against Miracles, Jund, and BUG. It's a threat you can Zenith for in the mid-game.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
If you're expecting to play against combo or STP/Blade decks then I wouldn't be overly excited about it - really just depends what you're expecting.
Interesting list here:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18055&iddeck=136360
Elite + Shaman seems good.
That's the list that lightning bebbi posted last page. Assuming that's his list since the date of the event matches up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
Put this into Cockatrice just to goldfish some. It's surprisingly not horrible from what I tried. Would have to get to play real games to tell, but the Chalices felt pretty sweet and not terribly obtrusive.
Maindeck
3 Gaea's Cradle
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Quirion Ranger
3 Dwynen's Elite
3 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Ranger
1 Shaman of the Pack
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Collected Company
3 Glimpse of Nature
1 Sylvan Library
4 Chalice of the Void
Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collected Company
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
I played at GP Oklahoma City this past weekend and was able to go 2-2 in a legacy event on Sunday. There were around 100 players. 4 matches isn't much, but it was my first legacy tournament so I was pretty pumped. Here is my list, I also wanted to try the straightforward combo - basically same list that TheRedMenace mentions using on the last page.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Pendelhaven
SB:
3 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
---------------------------------------------
Match 1 - vs Young PyroMentor
Game 1...I thought he was on Delver, all I saw were G Probes, Brainstorm, Young Pyromancer. By my turn 3 I had full field of elves to his one Young Pyro and he scooped as I kept playing more.
+3 Choke added, slimmed Nettle/Birch/Glimpse I believe
Game 2...I had good grip with Choke in hand. Drew another after he G Probed me and so I slammed it down and it stuck. It and the second Choke lasted the entire game, but he was able to get out Mentor + lands while I just had a few elves and no gas. I misplayed a GSZ (thought I had 9 mana available, only had 8) which led eventually to a loss. Probably were some other things I goofed as well, but he was able to overload Elecktricity to wipe most of my board and then start swinging with Mentor and tokens for my loss.
+1 Ruric, -1 Hoof
Game 3...Figured the Ruric would be better. He played Meddling Mage T2 naming Choke. I carefully counted my available mana and hard cast Ruric Thar T3. Some turns later, he chumped Ruric Thar while taking 6 from Brainstorm and another spell. I took 6 for GSZ for Ooze which I think was correct. Eventually he had to play removal on Thar but I had the DRS activation to ping him dead.
First legacy event, and a win! I was excited :)
Match 2 - vs Burn
Game 1...I won the die roll and had a nice Nettle hand, so I did my turn 1 Nettle and he frowned in response. Turns out his hand wasn't so hot vs Elves. He played Swiftspear on T1 and couldn't attack in. My T2 ended with 3 Nettles, 1 Birchlore, and 1 Quirion on board. Pretty sure I had Cradle + Hoof and was ready to combo out next turn, and he scooped.
Wasn't too sure what to side but I tried adding some Decays. Kept Rec Sage and Ooze in, trimmed a Hoof and couple other things.
Game 2...Not much to say, he had two Swiftspears and removal for my creatures, easily won.
Game 3...This one went a little interesting - he played early Goblin Guide which 2 or 3 times let me draw a land from the top. I started with DRS and then several other Elves. Started to have a very NO heavy hand, with 'Hoof as well :/ spent one NO to grab Rec Sage and destroy his Eidolon. He called for a judge and asked for oracle text on Hoof, then played Ensnaring Bridge and Fireblasted my Heritage Druid. Nice play - but not as spicy as my next turn NO for Wirewood Symbiote, bounce Rec Sage, replay it. Next turn Hoof for win.
2-0 woo!
Match 3 - vs ANT
These next two were not so hot, and there isn't much to say about them.
Game 1...I had a T3 win in hand but he gambled on comboing out and was able to draw the mana to do it right before.
Sided in the 2 Thoughtseize, 3 Cabal Therapy
Game 2...I kept DRS active as I slowly built a board, but T4 I believe he cast Ritual, tutored, my DRS ate the graveyard Ritual in response, tutor resolves and he reveals another Ritual in hand, grabs another and combos off with exactly 10 storm. Welp.
Match 4 - vs Reanimator
Game 1...Not much to do about a T3 Elesh Norn. I did make the mistake of leaving DRS tapped and unavailable - he had only played Ponder before his combo and so I didn't think it was Reanimator.
Same thing, added the discard package.
Game 2...I was able to cast an early Cabal Therapy naming Ponder, his had revealed an Entomb (he had E Norn already in grave), Show and Tell, Lotus Petal. I sac'd a creature to take the Show and Tell. He EoT Entombed Burial Rites, then drew a second Petal and had the 4 mana to get Elesh Norn into play. Welp again.
I was glad to get 4 different games in against different decks, can't really help the last two very much. Had a buddy playing Stoneblade who went up against 3 Elf decks. He wasn't happy.
Today I'll try to register for GP Seattle, my mind is made up :) most of the players I encountered were very mature and had some good conversations before and after games. With the exception of the salty PyroMentor guy from the first matchup at least.
The Shaman list is definitely legit; Basti (Lightning Bebbi) approached me with the idea shortly after Shaman of the Pack was spoiled and he has put together a really solid list. It's slightly less explosive than what we are used to but also much less reliant on Natural Order. I eventually grew to really hate that card postboard and always ended up siding it out. Collected Company on the other hand is just amazing.
On another plus side, the deck is now very much on par with Miracles and shouldn't fear going into the matchup at all. This allows us to have the good number of 5 discard + 2 Surgicals postboard vs combo and still have 3 Decay+Ooze vs. Delver. Basti also chose to really shore up the Miracles matchup by adding 2 Krosan Grips and 2 Needles. I really love Grip and if you put in a creature with an EtB effect, it's also great vs OmniTell.
Question for those playing around with the Drain list:
Why 2 Shaman instead of 3? Without any testing at all, I just assume you might wanna have 3 to draw it more often. Or is 3 actually too many?
Just curious. <3<3<3. I'll test the Drain list tonight at my weekly. It looks fun at the very least.
I'm a little skeptical of the drain list but I'll try it out. If it actually has decent game against Miracles I'll be so happy. What does sideboarding with it look like?
From brief shuffling when the card came out, yes 3 is too many. It feels like it should be the right number (I think I said as much when I saw the card), but once you play out some hands it's just unnecessarily clunky.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
I'm still not sold on Shaman. I'm rather attached to my "I win"-button.
It's quite more complex. You lose your quick turn 2/3/4 wins alltogether which does not improve the decks Position against combo or fair decks. I really wonder which matchups this change should improve, but i'm quite sure it boils down to "Miracles, because I never get terminused/Balance-locked out of the game and therefore have always 4+ mana for collected company!".Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Well, in theory, with the absolute motherfucking nuts one could Glimpse through the deck and finish the opponent with the Shaman (or bounce the Shaman once for 2x 10+ lifedrain). The chances of that happening are just rather slim. Same goes for the Natural Order route, but the Natural Order route just takes less of a board presence to make the kill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I dunno, I like the speed of the Elves! deck. Making the deck more grindy seems like moving towards a bad Maverick build (yes, I'm hyperboling).
Except here you have no hatebears/NO for Ruric in the first place, which makes you a dog to combo. I get your point with the hyperbole, even if there is no Problem with being grindy in general, but being grindy while having no Stack/Hand interaction or denial at all is. It's like praying your opponent does not combo out or wipe the board till you attack/Drain your opponent to Zero lifepoints. In that terms you might rather want to compare this deck to Burn rather than Maverick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Either way, we'd be a shitty version of that. I guess we're on the same page as far as that is concerned.