[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

@Ralf,
I have played 4Drs / 2 Vet builds a year or more ago... I ended up deciding that deed was the card that was winning me the most games and I loved cabal therapy so I should play into those strengths and that means 4 vet 4 therapy all day every day.

That said, if I continue to struggle with miracles and nothing changes, I may move back to a more junkish build in which case we can start PMing like kids at the back of class and work on lists :P

EDIT: On the previous page I have two lists that I'm considering for the legacy challenge tomorrow, would appreciate thoughts on them, thanks peeps.

Deranged Hermit. Once a staple of Nic Fit style decks, seems to have fallen out of favor recently. He interacts very well with Recurring Nightmare as well as Cabal Therapy, plus he gives us a way to go wide on the opponent for very little investment. Thoughts on his usefulness in today's meta?

For reference, this is my 75 (took the 7th place SCG Milwaukee list and made minor modifications). The Deranged Hermit and Recurring Nightmare slots are flex slots, so they could be anything.

Main

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Deranged Hermit
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Siege Rhino
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Sensei’s Divining Top

1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Painful Truths
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith

1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Plains
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

Side

2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist

So much to comment on here, pardon for not using proper quotes and not spending an extra hour to polish all comments below.

@ Jain_mor, Rubblekill:
I tend to board out Ooze vs Miracles too. There are never gonna be enough creatures in the graveyards to grow him into a threat, and the only use you have of him beyond being a grizzly bear is exiling in response to Snapcaster trigger - most times they will be able to Swords Ooze before they play the Snapcaster (or Terminus).

@ Jain_mor:
Regarding Tireless Tracker or Painful Truths in your first list, I would definitely go with Tracker. You need bodies to attach equipments to, but more importantly Tracker is a GSZ-able Painful Truths (3 for 1) if you play it with a fetch land in hand (mention several times, I know) and from there it just gets better - it has the potential of growing large just like Ooze and it's not to be neglected, while drawing you plenty of cards. It's the one card (i.e. creature serving as a clock) I would keep in to have a clock vs combo decks, GSZ for Tracker and then draw into more disruption while beating down.

@ Jain_mor:
Comment on your second list, when I've played similar Rhino lists I've been fine with 3 Veterans and 2 Deathrites, so I agree about the discussion on the previous page about skipping STE (and I would skip one Veteran too, but that's just me). [edit: actually the same goes for my Mystic lists, they are usually lower in CMC:s than the Rhino lists so 3 Veterans probably make even more sense there. And I agree with you about missing Deed when lowering the number on them, that was my biggest problem with a 5 slot equipment package and 2 deeds.]

Arianrhod: "I feel a bit light for storm, Elves/DnT, Infect, and like 1 card off from Shardless."

I have written it previously but let me repeat it. I'm currently favoring the trio of Ethersworn Canonist, Engineered Plague and Enlightened Tutor. Vs Storm you want two Canonists, but don't particularly care if it's two copies or one tutor + one Canonist. The card disadvantage is more or less irrelevant. E.Tutor can even be better than Canonist, if you start and they open with discard you can respond by tutoring for Canonist. If they go for goblins you can actually get Plague instead, using your "second" Canonist (i.e. the E.Tutor) to stop their alternative win condition - pretty good for a fullgood replacement of a second Canonist. And then vs Elves you don't want a second Canonist (you probably don't want the first one either, at least I don't) but instead following up initial discard with a quasi lock peace in Engineered Plague. Note that the card disadvantage of E.Tutor is pretty irrelevant in this matchup too, once the tutored for Plague is played you will have plenty of card advantage. Vs Infect both Canonist and Plague are great. Plague takes out any 33% of their threats, including Nexus. Canonist makes it possible for you to destroy their attacker post pumping, etc. So I think these three sideboard slots are pretty perfect for the three matchups you mention, haven't looked thoroughly at your list though. Plague is also good vs Death and Taxes, Goblins and any Pyromancer deck (basically a hard lock vs UR Delver someone informed me). Once you have an E.Tutor in the board, you may want to add stuff like Choke (should be basically a lockdown vs Storm/Grixis Delver decks if they tap out and you know the coast is clear and without the tutor it's still good vs Miracles) and Ensnaring Bridge (hard for some Eldrazi decks to deal with, tutor for it and top in response to Show and Tell, also stops Marit Lage).

Arianrhod: "The trick is going to be finding cards that flex between Miracles and other decks. Honestly, looking at those 7 decks (and even beyond them, at Infect), Slaughter Games doesn't look great."

I've mentioned that I'm testing REB over Slaughter Games. It's t1-t3 interaction with Storm, and coupled with extra discard it can be good to keep them off cantripping into combo pieces. It stops Jace (much cheaper too), it stops Counterbalance, Clique/Snappy and cantrips. Slaughter Games shine vs Miracles but REB is good too. And vs Infect REB seems much better (than Slaughter Games), stopping the unblockable blue creature which is most relevant but also stopping cantrips, submerge and protecting your removal from FoW. I would suggest changing the third copy of Slaughter Games into a copy of REB to see how you like it. REB also stops Shardless, Visions and Jace from Shardless (without the card disadvantage of S.G.). I'm also thinking that REB can be good vs Painter: they usually need Painter to win so even if you're locked out of mana you can usually wait for a chance to REB their Blood Moon and then you'll have mana for using your spot removal on Painter/Grindstone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

@Ralf,
I have played 4Drs / 2 Vet builds a year or more ago... I ended up deciding that deed was the card that was winning me the most games and I loved cabal therapy so I should play into those strengths and that means 4 vet 4 therapy all day every day.

That said, if I continue to struggle with miracles and nothing changes, I may move back to a more junkish build in which case we can start PMing like kids at the back of class and work on lists :P

EDIT: On the previous page I have two lists that I'm considering for the legacy challenge tomorrow, would appreciate thoughts on them, thanks peeps.

---

I gave you other ideas as well. Just don't stare @ the first line:)

To be fair I also have a good experience with SFM builds as you might know.

There is kinda bad synergy with SFM + Deed.

Liliana is really a powerhouse and such a grind machine.

KotR pulls its weight against Drazi among its other abilities.

Ooze is must and should be somewhere in your 75.

Engineered Plague is very very neat. It comes in various MU (Elves, Miracle, Pyromancer decks, D&T, Merfolk, Gobelin, Infect...etc)

Good luck for your tournament tomorrow !

So this just happened and I am ever so close to giving up: http://imgur.com/a/uFhWW

Everything went to plan, I was drawing cards, I was getting damage in, I always had a threat in play and one in hand. I landed a sorin, he revealed a land for me, then opp plays jace and sorin kills it and kills a mentor next turn before dying to a token. I abeyanced his terminus and got the opponent down to one health, he then answers my tusk and its token, and my tracker then FoW'd my gsun for rhino that I drew from the clue... I didnt draw any decays and he counter spelled my deed so I couldnt answer the balances so I couldn't play my needle naming top or jace. And then I eventually ran out of threats in hand and he landed a jace it fatesealed me to death. After the game he told me he had an extra terminus on top the whole time and he just misplayed regarding the abeyance -.-

I guess it is now Slaughter Games or bust. Consensus on Slaughter games is play 3 or go home right? Has no one ever found a conflict between teeg and games, you run them together right? If we are running slaughter games, sorin, teeg and pulse to deal with jace, do we still want needles to name top since we play our own? I like Pettdan's REB idea, I wouldn't try it against delver though, just non wasteland decks.

SB ideas

1 Etutor
1 Needle
1 Canonist
1 RIP
1 E Plague
1 Humility/ensaring bridge? (??)
1 TS
1 Safekeeper
1 Teeg
1 RecSage
2 REB
2 Slaughter
1 Sorin

2 Needle (??)
2 SurgExt
1 TS
1 Safekeeper
1 Teeg
1 RecSage
2 ToxDeluge/??
2 REB
2 Slaughter
1 Sorin

I'm going mad over here.
And thanks Ralf, I'm going to need it haha.

Just try my board:

(1 Safekeeper in main, 2 Sorin in main)

1 Teeg
3 Thoughtseize
2 Canonist
1 Ruination
1 Tsunami
2 Slaughter Games
1 Sigarda/Elspeth/Garruk Relentless
2 Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm

Grip is still always good as well.

-Matt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sdematt

Just try my board:

(1 Safekeeper in main, 2 Sorin in main)

1 Teeg
3 Thoughtseize
2 Canonist
1 Ruination
1 Tsunami
2 Slaughter Games
1 Sigarda/Elspeth/Garruk Relentless
2 Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm

Grip is still always good as well.

-Matt

---

What's your main to go with that? I assume it's more than 3 sweet cards :P

You know it, babe.

4 Vet
2 DRS
1 Ooze
1 Witness
4 Rhino
1 Sigarda
1 Safekeeper

4 GSZ
4 Therapy
3 Path
3 Deed
3 Decay
3 Top
2 Truths
1 Sylvan Library

2 Sorin

22 Lands

Cheers bbz, I'm calling it a night. I'll will be testing something similar tomorrow morning and lunch before the tourney. I'll report my findings and inevitable victory.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Also, depending on the individual list, I'm getting increasingly closer to thinking that Terminus should be Slaughter #2 vs Miracles (#1 obviously is always Jace). It's attractive to systematically remove their win conditions, but realistically, we should be able to kill them quickly enough to not have to worry about Entreat or Mentor as long as they don't have Terminus to stop us from killing them, plus both Entreat and Mentor play directly into our Deeds, Decays, and Top hate anyway.

---

I actually like Terminus as the #1 name off of Slaughter Games. Once they don't have a board wipe Jace is a lot less effective at bouncing things because you can extend into it.

Quote:

---

My rough opinion of decks in terms of number of cards I want for them:

Miracles: yes
Shardless: 4 [-4 Therapy, same as for vs traditional Jund/Junk]
Delver: maybe nothing? Two Painful Truths should probably be boarded out.
Lands: 5-6
Eldrazi: 3-4
DnT: 4 (Meren/Dromoka, probably shaving a Path and maybe the Taiga)
Infect: 7
Painter: 7
ANT: 7
Burn: 4

---

Mine is
Miracles: 5 (-4 Vet, -1 Path, +3 Ramp, +1 Teeg, +1 Thrun... I don't splash Red)
Shardless: 0 (Bringing in Choke is nice splash damage but it's not any better than what you're taking out)
Delver: 0 (same issue with Choke)
Lands: Not much experience, probably 3-4? (-all Decay/Vindicate/Pulse, +exile removal, +disruption)
Eldrazi: 4 (-2 Decay, -2 Deed, +exile, +discard, +LD)
DnT: 4 (-4 Vet, +2 Ramp, +2 Thoughtseize)
Infect: 3 (-2 DRS, -1 Ooze, +Choke/exile)
Painter: No idea
ANT: No idea
Burn: 4 (-4 Vet, +2 DRS, 1 Ooze, 1 Shriekmaw)

So in those matchups that gives me a board of:
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thoughtseize
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fulminator Mage
2 Choke
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shriekmaw
2 Faerie Macabre

Like I've said several times in the past, my general strategy with the deck is to include things that can hit the opponent in the face. I've considered making Thoughtseize into Tidehollow for that reason. It costs the same under Thalia, it hits the opponent, and most decks I'm bringing it in for can't remove it anyways, in the event of something like Storm I would actually rather it be under Tidehollow than happily sitting in the GY. This also applies to something like keeping Lands off of a Life from the Loam.

I notice I SB far fewer cards than you do, perhaps a list of what you take out would be in order? I find that to generally be more helpful than what you bring in since you can't bring in more than you take out, but you can certainly pack your SB with too many cards that you want to bring in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brael

I actually like Terminus as the #1 name off of Slaughter Games. Once they don't have a board wipe Jace is a lot less effective at bouncing things because you can extend into it.



Mine is
Miracles: 5 (-4 Vet, -1 Path, +3 Ramp, +1 Teeg, +1 Thrun... I don't splash Red)
Shardless: 0 (Bringing in Choke is nice splash damage but it's not any better than what you're taking out)
Delver: 0 (same issue with Choke)
Lands: Not much experience, probably 3-4? (-all Decay/Vindicate/Pulse, +exile removal, +disruption)
Eldrazi: 4 (-2 Decay, -2 Deed, +exile, +discard, +LD)
DnT: 4 (-4 Vet, +2 Ramp, +2 Thoughtseize)
Infect: 3 (-2 DRS, -1 Ooze, +Choke/exile)
Painter: No idea
ANT: No idea
Burn: 4 (-4 Vet, +2 DRS, 1 Ooze, 1 Shriekmaw)

So in those matchups that gives me a board of:
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thoughtseize
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fulminator Mage
2 Choke
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shriekmaw
2 Faerie Macabre

Like I've said several times in the past, my general strategy with the deck is to include things that can hit the opponent in the face. I've considered making Thoughtseize into Tidehollow for that reason. It costs the same under Thalia, it hits the opponent, and most decks I'm bringing it in for can't remove it anyways, in the event of something like Storm I would actually rather it be under Tidehollow than happily sitting in the GY. This also applies to something like keeping Lands off of a Life from the Loam.

I notice I SB far fewer cards than you do, perhaps a list of what you take out would be in order? I find that to generally be more helpful than what you bring in since you can't bring in more than you take out, but you can certainly pack your SB with too many cards that you want to bring in.

---

It's definitely possible that I'm overboarding in an attempt to make popular matchups win-more and in the process and destabilizing too much. Here's my notes from my 14-card sideboard I mentioned earlier:

Miracles:

-4 Vet
-Meren
-Deadly Recluse
-3 Path
-4 Therapy
(13)

+2 Needle
+2 Grip
+Sorin
+Elspeth
+2 Carpet
+3 Slaughter
+P.Truths
+?? [15th slot]
(13)

By far the most conversion-oriented matchup, lots of ins/outs as a result. I don't want Vet or Therapy postboard, Meren will never bring back anything between StP and Terminus, Recluse's body and ability are both irrelevant here, and Path is useless.

Shardless:

-4 Therapy
(4)

+Sorin
+Elspeth
+P.Truths
+?? [15th slot]
(4)

In my experience, Therapy just isn't where you want to be in this matchup. You're going to get Hymned into oblivion (or Ancestralled into oblivion), so you just want to load up on as much power as you can, to punch through their nebulous defenses. They have to attack into your Veterans, so you don't need Therapy as a sac outlet, and most games are going to come down to a topdeck (or Top deck) battle. Furthermore, they're very much a Deathrite deck, and Therapy just gives them more opportunities to nug you.

Delver:

-2 P.Truths
(2)

+2 Carpet
(2)

Pretty self explanatory. As I said, I'm probably going to cut the Carpets since they're only good in two matches, but, this an easy in/out, I think.

Lands:

-Recluse
-Dromoka
-Meren
-2 Decay
(5)

+2 Needle
+2 Surgical
+Sorin
(5)

Recluse can block Merit Lage for a turn, but won't kill it. Same with Dromoka, which has the added problem of being legendary against the Karakas/Loam/Gamble deck. Meren has those problems as well as being hosed by Bojuka Bog. Decays are useful, but still fairly easily boarded out. The new Lands builds don't even run the stax elements anymore -- Ensnaring Bridge and the like -- so you're basically looking at taking out Mox Diamonds and Explorations, which Deed is better at anyway. Sorin comes in as an additional way to kill the opponent through Glacial Chasm lock. Needles and Surgicals are obvious.

Painter:

-Dromoka
-Meren
-2 Baneslayer
-Recluse
-Tracker
-2 P.Truths
(8)

+2 Grip
+2 Needle
+2 Slaughter Games
+2 Surgical
(8)

Postboard they frequently become more staxxy with Ensnaring Bridges and other such nonsense. Dromoka and Baneslayers can't get through very easily, Meren is a useful deterrent to hard-Grindstoning, but otherwise kind of lackluster, Recluse isn't good vs this opponent, Tracker gets burned out very easily and grows too large to get through Bridge if he lives, and Truths costs too much time vs their burn plan. All of the board-ins are fine -- I opted out of the 3rd Slaughter since I couldn't come up with another good cut, but I'd be open to bringing it in. I'd like to leave Meren in, honestly, but I don't know what else I'd leave out for her.

Eldrazi:

-2 P.Truths
-Sigarda
(3)

+Elspeth
+2 Grip
(3)

Elspeth's -3 is massive here, and Grip can handle Revoker and other obnoxious lock pieces (Winter Orb, anyone?). Painful Truths is too slow here, and the lifeloss can be kind of dangerous against Reality Smasher chains. Sigarda flat out isn't necessary here -- the game can be won just as easily by Dromoka or Baneslayers, or Pernicious Deed, and she loses in combat to an awful lot of their creatures.

Death and Taxes:

-Meren
-Dromoka
-1 Path
(3)

+2 Grip
+Elspeth
(3)

Elspeth flooding 1/1s is very hard for them to deal with, especially since the tokens are white and our other creatures are green. Grip is obviously insane vs Revoker, Vial, equipment, etc. Meren and Dromoka are bad vs the 4x Karakas deck, and then I think that shaving 1 Path is probably correct? Could also be the Taiga to lean down on mana a little bit, not really sure what the last cut should be.

Infect:

-Sigarda
-Tireless
-Meren
-Dromoka
-1 Top
(5)

+2 Needle
+2 Grip
+P.Truths
(5)

This match basically comes down to stopping them in their tracks effectively, while beating down with Rhinos. Meren and Dromoka lose to Crop Rotation->Karakas, while the games don't last long enough for Tireless Tracker to accrue value. One Top gets shaved for this same reason - you can't really afford to sit there dicking with Top. Sigarda is a worse wincon than Baneslayers and Rhinos here.

ANT:

-Dromoka
-Meren
-3 Path
-2 Decay
-Sigarda
(8)

+3 Slaughter
+2 Surgical
+P.Truths
+2 Needle
(8)

I wasn't really happy with this, which is why I stopped working on this sideboard plan. Needles were a vague plan to squeeze in cards that are super fringe relevant (naming Polluted Delta to harm their mana base and slow them down, maybe naming LED to jedi mindtrick people into thinking that they can't use them even though they totally can). Slaughters, Surgicals, and Truths are all great, though. You take out the expensive top-end and the spot removal.

---------------------------

Again, I'm working on trying to come up with a better sideboard and then revising the plan from there, but that might give you some insight. I might be overboarding, but I don't feel like my thought processes are incorrect or irrational, so I'm not sure. I'm tempted to include the Abeyances (I have two on the way now -- one is even German!), since the splash between Miracles and Storm isn't exactly a common area to find, but I am admittedly worried that they won't come in against any other matchups. It's possible that I'm too worried about cards being good vs multiple decks, though, and a card being good vs 2 decks is good enough.

I dunno. I'm tired, so I'm not even sure if I'm fully coherent any more. I'm going to end this here now and I'll respond to/with further thoughts/comments tomorrow.

@Jain: I'd go with Rhino Fit. Just keep it nice and simple. Good luck!

@matt: Well look at that, @2 Sorin now? Wow!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arianrhod

It's definitely possible that I'm overboarding in an attempt to make popular matchups win-more and in the process and destabilizing too much. Here's my notes from my 14-card sideboard I mentioned earlier:

---

I don't really see anything I disagree with, but I think that you might make yourself too threat light. I can definitely get behind taking out 1 power creatures because 1 power is so little that it might as well be 0 power, but I think that in the case of Miracles for example you're overlooking that even as a vanilla 3/4 Meren is still hitting the opponent. Anything that hits them is good, anything that stops Terminus is better.

When it comes to Shardless, I can't argue against what you're bringing in, but I think I can argue against what you're taking out. Therapy isn't bad against them. Their deck is mostly focused around 2 for 1's against you or cheating costs so they never actually pay all that much for their cards, and they all have prohibitive mana costs. Where Therapy comes in here is it's great at hitting Liliana on turn 1-2 because that's their only recurring source of advantage besides what's usually 1-2 JTMS, everything else is 1 shot. Therapy is also a great proactive answer to Goyf which is their only way to actually kill you quickly. If you can therapy their Goyf you can play fast and loose with a lot of your removal. If you're looking for something to take out instead I suggest the vets, but if you remove Vet you need to add in other ways to accelerate your mana.

When it comes to Delver, consider cutting the Carpets to go up to a playset of Deathrite Shaman. DRS swaps for vet pretty well giving us a lesser but 1 sided mana acceleration, it's a threat, and in some matches such as against Shardless it can be nice to be on DRS parity (or better if you've got some recursion like Meren).

What about DRS for Lands? I'm just throwing out suggestions here, I've never actually played against the deck and am completely clueless on recent variants. DRS can eat Loam targets however which reduces them to just Crop Rotation and Gamble to find their parts, it can eat Loam as well, and it fills the criteria of getting in damage through a Chasm lock.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

Some people struggle with Shardless BUG, others find Grixis Delver difficult, ANT/TES is my nemesis (partly b/c one of the worlds best Storm pilots just happens to frequent our LGS and also helps other Storm pilots there hone their skills). My record vs. that archetype is truly beyond dreadful. And I run the same amount of discard as anybody else. I've only recently acquired my Canonists though, so that might help the next time I face ANT/TES. Mind you, I've managed to lose after opening with T1 DRS followed up by T2 Surgical his cantrip (to look at his hand), Therapy on Infernal Tutor, flashback Therapy on Chain of Vapor, Gaddock Teeg (yes, that was my T2).

I guess the focus on those 2 particular MUs is b/c those are the ones I want to improve most and b/c there are very few other things I fear to face (ergo don't want to spend specific sideboard slots on. I'm fine with just having splash damage for those MUs). But just trust me on this one - the demanded overlap in the current requirements model is quite likely to fill in the nice-to-haves automatically.

---

Let me suggest an alternate build for a sideboard. Rather than worrying about specific cards to begin with, we try to come up with a requirements range on what we want to see. For example, we decided on needing X number of threats (I don't remember what X was anymore). What about identifying how many threats we need post board in the various matchups, and then based on that we know how much needs to come in and out. We can do the same for answers, for mana (DRS really pulls his weight here), and all the rest. And in the end we have a sideboard that can shift from a configuration of say 22 threats, 26 mana, 14 answers, 14 CA in the mainboard to say 30 threats, 24 mana, 10 answers, 10 CA postboard if we need to take an aggressive line but 18 threats, 26 mana, 18 answers, 18 CA if we need to take a controlling line.

@Matt we are playing basically the same main deck, only difference is that I play Meren + ts instead of 2 sorin (pw are in my sb).
It is a very streamlined list isn't it?

@Arianrhod: Here are a few comments on your sb notes.

Lands:
Decay: lately I've met Confidant post sb from Dark Lands (that's what it's called? Need to head over to the lands thread), they also may play Molten Vortex over Punishing Fire (some more targets than other Lands builds), I'd be careful in bringing out all Decays.

Death and Taxes:
Path: One way to lose this matchup is by Mother + Revoker, another is Thalia + Rishadan Port. I'd run Path over Elspeth. Just my opinion.

Infect:
Tireless: This matchup imo is largely about drawing more removal than they draw threats, Tracker is perfect. You mull into a hand with good removal, empty your hand by playing removal and discard and then need one finisher. A finisher that lets you draw removal while beating down is perfect. Tracker > Rhino.

ANT:
Feels bad not having Thoughtseize to bring in, I rarely play Grips. As you wish.

I was just thinking that I don't even know if I want to dedicate 1-2 slots to grip anymore. The card is good but is less impactful than, say, an abeyance. And as a singleton I don't like grip that much because decks that play top (my main reason to play grip) have usually 3-4 of them so they always drop another one afterwards.
The splash damage to other decks is very low in my meta (good for lodestone golem? Probably, but I never see them luckily). So my conclusion would be to play 1 abeyance instead, which gets to be played against more decks and leads to more blowout situations, being a more impactful card overall.
Thoughts/opinions? (I don't play needles, remember that)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rubblekill

I was just thinking that I don't even know if I want to dedicate 1-2 slots to grip anymore. The card is good but is less impactful than, say, an abeyance. And as a singleton I don't like grip that much because decks that play top (my main reason to play grip) have usually 3-4 of them so they always drop another one afterwards.
The splash damage to other decks is very low in my meta (good for lodestone golem? Probably, but I never see them luckily). So my conclusion would be to play 1 abeyance instead, which gets to be played against more decks and leads to more blowout situations, being a more impactful card overall.
Thoughts/opinions? (I don't play needles, remember that)

---

As you can see in the pictures I posted above, I abeyanced a terminus, it was beautiful and perfect and still didn't matter. I'm going to be trying REB in its place... but I do still like Abeyance, and I have never liked krosan grip, just too expensive and narrow, when you play decay/deed.sage anyway.

I don't like DRS vs Lands particularly, only because it dies to PFire/Molten Vortex activations. Might be fine if the Decays stay in // if the Grips come in with them, which it sounds like they might need to anyway?

Vet has been how I've been beating Shardless for basically forever. My entire strategy vs Shardless is just to jam as many Vets down their throat as possible, because they really just can't do anything about it at all. I'll test leaving the Therapies in and just running it back with no board. I wouldn't mind finding room for the walkers and the 3rd Truths, but I'll worry about that after seeing how Therapy feels postboard.

For DnT, Path is likely better than Abrupt Decay, actually. Thalia and Port can make it hard to cast Decay sometimes, and having the extra 1cmc for Mom is probably relevant. At that point it might just be better to shave the Taiga and go to 21 lands for the matchup. Kind of weird for the mana denial deck, but Taiga is literally a nonbasic Forest when Slaughters aren't coming in, so.

Tracker is worse than Rhino vs Submerge, and not having Trample could matter since they can afford to block aggressively (they only need one creature swinging). That said, I need little convincing to leave Tracker in. Card is great.

Not having Thoughtseize does indeed hurt vs storm. But, to be fair, I think storm is the only (or one of the only) matchups where passing on Thoughtseize is really hurtful.

On Grip: I've found Grip to be effective against Miracles, while simultaneously being a good security blank for a lot of the more random elements in the format, like Painter and Infect -- both of which are fairly popular at Mythic, and both of which I expect to see at the GP in reasonable numbers. Grip is also great at dealing with Phyrexian Revoker out of Death and Taxes and Eldrazi, which lets Deed wreck the rest of their deck. I could be talking out of Grip in exchange for different sideboard options as we discuss the topic further, but I just want to be clear that Grip /has/ been quite good for me.

Also, good luck today Jain and anyone else playing in the modo thingamajig.

Hi Guys.
Im playing my own version of nic fit and it is with punishing fire. I believe it is not very popular at this time,not where im from.
He it is:
4 verdant catacombs
1 wooded foothills
2 taiga
1 badlands
1 bayou
1 dryad arbor
4 grove of the Burnwillows
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1x kessig
2 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Mountain
I think in the mana base should be one more bayou i cannot afford to buy it now.
3 Veteran explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavening Ooze
2 deathrite Shaman
2 Thragtusk
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 primeval titan

4 cabal Therapy
4 GsZ
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the veil
2 deed
2 sensei's divining top
1 garruk relentless
1 toxic deluge
1 recurring nightmare
1 diabolic intent

There is in Czech republic GP Prague this year,legacy is the main event and i wonder is my deck good enough to be able to play.Maybe there is something i can change and would be better. I thought about this new creature from shadows over innistrad,the gitrog monster,is it good enough to play? or maybe some draw efects like painfull truths.
Thanks for any help