All B/R update speculation.

@Pirate King: Butterfly Tender is an interesting concept, but needs tweaking

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

Screw You Brainstorm :1::r:
Creature - Dwarf Berserker
First Strike
If an opponent would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in each of his or her draw steps, Screw You Brainstorm deals damage for each card drawn.
2/1

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How exactly does the last wording work? In case of Brainstorm 1+2+3 = 6 damage?

I see various problems the way this card works - the main problem is that it's asymmetrical. Brainstorm decks would run it to fight other Brainstorm decks which brings us back to the core issue why Brainstorm reigns supreme: Shitty hate.

Another problem is the combo issue: Make your opponent draw 6 cards in a turn - instagib him. Even less in multiples. Do we really need a hate card that is probably besser used as a combo finisher, working especially well with blue draw? :eyebrow:

I think the card would work better like this:

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Screw You Brainstorm :1::r:
Creature - Dwarf Berserker
First Strike
Whenever a spell or ability causes a player to draw a card, Screw You Brainstorm deals 2 damage to its controller.
2/1

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More consistent against normal cantrips while still being strong against Draw 7s, no combo potential and now its an extremely bad idea to run him alongside cantrips.

@Barook: I didn't try too hard at the wording, because Chains as a starting point is hard. But a free lightning bolt against a player who brainstorms, basically. If they draw once a turn like a good boy, then it's a Youthful Knight in red. Once they start drawing extra cards, it's that much damage. Doesn't stop the draw exactly, but gives reason to not just automatically do it whenever available. That's what I'd like to see. Not to kill Brainstorm, just to make it without risk. We all still use fetch lands, despite Stifle. Some of us run no basics, despite Blood Moon. Even with a single basic, you're still in a bad place. Same could be true for Brainstorm.

A short story to explain why I think this way:

I was playing Elves against Omnishow and sided in Ruric Thar, NO him in and let the guy read him. On his turn he untaps and Brainstorms looking for an answer.

Him. "Tap Island, Brainstorm."
Me: "Thar Trigger, take 6 damage."
Him: "Wait what?"
Me: "Read him again. 6."

My thoughts on a card that hits for Brainstorm, if it's a two drop matching Thar, it's too powerful. If it's a two drop that's going to totally Hose Omnishow, keep that in mind when designing it. I do not feel that a 2 drop should deal 2 damage on each card drawn but deal 3 and trigger on the resolution of the spell in question. Maybe 2 if in testing 3 is found to be too high. But a 2 drop should not deal 6 damage to a Brainstorm player playing just one card.

Also, thinking about it. This thing would totally Fuck Dredge if printed as advertised right now.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Also, thinking about it. This thing would totally Fuck Dredge if printed as advertised right now.

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I agree that my from the hip rules text might have been off. But I stand by the reasoning behind it. Notion Thief is just awful. And it's blue. Give red and green some reason to punish Brainstorms in their own flavor and I will be happy.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

My thoughts on a card that hits for Brainstorm, if it's a two drop matching Thar, it's too powerful. If it's a two drop that's going to totally Hose Omnishow, keep that in mind when designing it. I do not feel that a 2 drop should deal 2 damage on each card drawn but deal 3 and trigger on the resolution of the spell in question. Maybe 2 if in testing 3 is found to be too high. But a 2 drop should not deal 6 damage to a Brainstorm player playing just one card.

Also, thinking about it. This thing would totally Fuck Dredge if printed as advertised right now.

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Maybe you should just not play Brainstorm when said guy in play? Maybe that's the point of the hate card to not play Brainstorm like a trained monkey? Unlike Meddling Mage, there's still room to make the decision to take 6 and still play Brainstorm.

Dredge wouldn't give a single fuck since dredging =|= drawing.

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

Of course you have nothing to say to that because that's not what I said. All I said was Brainstorm does not need a ban or an answer, because it actually diversifies the format, despite the lack of non-blue decks.

If anything, I suggest creating better cantrips for the other colors as well as better disruption, most notably for red and green.

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Your definition of promoting diversity seems to be just proliferating different shades of blue. Others, myself included, would argue diversity is better served with a representation across the whole color scheme.

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Originally Posted by davelin

Your definition of promoting diversity seems to be just proliferating different shades of blue. Others, myself included, would argue diversity is better served with a representation across the whole color scheme.

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This seems to be why a lot of people don't like Brainstorm or blue in general. There are too many blue cards that get played in legacy, they say.

Well... You are allowed to not like that about the format. But banning a card because of it's color is ridiculous. Banning Brainstorm so blue gets played less is ridiculous. If you want representation of the whole color scheme then just play whatever you colors you want to play. Or even better... and I don't mean this as a personal jibe against people who want to ban Brainstorm... But play casual with your friends. Play EDH. You can literally play whatever you want there with no repercussions.

I'm not going to get entrenched in this played out debate... But I just wanted to say that stuff shouldn't get banned in constructed formats so that other colors see more play...

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Originally Posted by Barook

Maybe you should just not play Brainstorm when said guy in play? Maybe that's the point of the hate card to not play Brainstorm like a trained monkey? Unlike Meddling Mage, there's still room to make the decision to take 6 and still play Brainstorm.

Dredge wouldn't give a single fuck since dredging =|= drawing.

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I do not agree that 6 damage on Brainstorm is a fair punishment. It's too strong. Just because you hate a card does not mean you should overlook the serious balancing issues that this guy can create. A two drop that's hoses Omnishow as well seams off. Meanwhile it does relatively little against Ponder and Preordain. I feel like the damage would be best at a flat, capped amount. No one playing Brainstorm into 3 damage is going to do it like a trained monkey, they will do it out of desperation seeking Wish so they can get an answer.

I may be alone here, but I feel like you need to separate your feelings for the card in question before you make hate for it. If not you end up like the DCI making every possible flavour of grave hate because they regret making Dredge. Make sure what your doing is fair and still keeps the game fun. Hate for Brainstorm should not actively remove the fun from those that still enjoy playing it.

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Originally Posted by davelin

Your definition of promoting diversity seems to be just proliferating different shades of blue. Others, myself included, would argue diversity is better served with a representation across the whole color scheme.

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Let's try a different approach, k?

Rakdos Storm Hate - (B/R)
Enchantment
Whenever an opponent casts a spell, put a soul counter on ~.
At the beginning of your upkeep, remove all soul counters from ~.
Remove a soul counter from ~: ~ deals X damage to target opponent, where X is the number of spells or abilities that opponent controls.

Selesnya Storm Hate - (G/W)
Enchantment
Whenever an opponent casts a spell, put a soul counter on ~.
At the beginning of your upkeep, remove all soul counters from ~.
Remove a soul counter from ~: Put X 1/1 green and white plant tokens onto the battlefield and gain X life, where X is the number of spells or abilities target opponent controls.

Golgari Show and Tell/True-Name Nemesis Hatebear - 1BG
Creature - Human Shaman
As ~ enters the battlefield, name a nonland card.
Activated abilities of the named card can't be played.
When ~ enters the battlefield, destroy all permanents with the chosen name. For each permanent destroyed this way, its controller puts a 2/2 black and green zombie token onto the battlefield.
2/2

Boros Show and Tell/True-Name Nemesis Hatebear - 1RW
Creature - Human Soldier
As ~ enters the battlefield, name a nonland card.
Activated abilities of the named card can't be played.
Creatures with the chosen name cannot attack or block.
2/2

That's what I mean by better disruption for the other colors: something that basically threatens the viability of combo.

As far as better dig ... I had a few ideas early on in the Shitty Card Creation thread.

@Dice Box: To be clear, you are talking about Ruric Thar when you say 6 damage, not my poorly written abortion, correct? Because that was not my attempt. And maybe punishment is a bad word. Too much baggage attached. Same with balance. Not trying to balance anything. I am, but that cause too much trouble to say. What I want is a con to mingle with the pro of the card. Even the most powerful spells thrown around in this format have cons. Force of Will is painful card disadvantage. Dual lands have Wasteland. If they don't have duals, your Wastelands are useless. But they're still played, because the pros outweigh the cons.

That should be the goal. Some card to form a relationship with Brainstorm similar to our beloved Stifle-Fetch, adored by all since 2003.

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Originally Posted by Will_L

This seems to be why a lot of people don't like Brainstorm or blue in general. There are too many blue cards that get played in legacy, they say.

Well... You are allowed to not like that about the format. But banning a card because of it's color is ridiculous. Banning Brainstorm so blue gets played less is ridiculous. If you want representation of the whole color scheme then just play whatever you colors you want to play. Or even better... and I don't mean this as a personal jibe against people who want to ban Brainstorm... But play casual with your friends. Play EDH. You can literally play whatever you want there with no repercussions.

I'm not going to get entrenched in this played out debate... But I just wanted to say that stuff shouldn't get banned in constructed formats so that other colors see more play...

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Ah, the good ol' "if you don't like it you can leave" counter-argument. I'm sure some said the same when MM and Survival were being advocated to be banned as well. Note that I'm not arguing against Brainstorm in the format, I'm arguing against bad arguments used to defend the card. There's nothing wrong with having a discussion or thought-experiment to see if the format would be better served with the removal of a card.

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Originally Posted by davelin

Ah, the good ol' "if you don't like it you can leave" counter-argument. I'm sure some said the same when MM and Survival were being advocated to be banned as well. Note that I'm not arguing against Brainstorm in the format, I'm arguing against bad arguments used to defend the card. There's nothing wrong with having a discussion or thought-experiment to see if the format would be better served with the removal of a card.

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There is only one reason to ban a card in Legacy: to diversify the format because the card in question polarized said format.

Now ask yourself: if we banned Brainstorm, would it actually diversify anything? I honestly doubt it: blue decks would still be ran to offset combo. Hence why I'd rather endorse better disruption for other colors rather than a silly ban on Brainstorm

As for other blue cards that see quite a bit of play:
-Banning of Force of Will would actually polarize the format even more, as there would be nothing to deter fast combo from going all in turn 1 on the play.
-Banning of True-Name Nemesis wouldn't do anything, except maybe decrease the validity of SFM.dec (so in a way, it actually polarizes the format as well, though not as badly as banning Force of Will).
-Banning of Show and Tell might help, but then again, there is a severe lack of cards that actually answer everything Show and Tell can do. If more suitable hate were printed, it'd be ok.

@King
Yea and your build possibly firing off on each card drawn for a total of 6 dam on a Brainstorm.

Had some thought and came up with 3 ideas.

Greno the Combat Wombat (1)(R)
Legendary creature

As ~ enters the battlefield, put 3 -1/-1 counters on it.

When a spell or ability would make an opponent draw a card, remove a counter from ~.
If there is no -1/-1 counters on ~, ~ gains Double strike.
5/5


Greno the Wall Wombat (1)(R)
Legendary creature

Defender
If an a spell or ability would cause an opponent to draw a card, put a -1/-1 counter on ~. Whenever a counter is placed on ~ this way, ~ deals damage to target opponent equal to the amount of counters on it.
5/5


Greno the flame welding Wombat (1)(R)(R)
Legendary creature

First strike
As ~ enters play, put any amount of -1/-1 on it. Whenever a spell or ability would cause its controller to draw a card, ~ deals damage to that player equal to the amount of counters on it.
4/4

Thoughts?

@ Wombats: 5/5 for 2 or 3 monocolored is kinda pushing the envelope in terms of vanilla beaters (even Goyf needs to build up to that, and Jotun Grunt has Culmulative Upkeep and rarely sees play).

I'd suggest the following if a draw punisher is actually needed:

Spiteful Devil - R
Creature - Devil
Whenever a player draws a card, Spiteful Devil deals 1 damage to them.
1/1

Looks weak on the surface, but when you factor in that this Bolts a player each time they brainstorm in addition to Timming them when they draw for turn AND swinging in the redzone for 1, then you're looking at a pretty nifty clock against most forms of blue non-aggro.

Well the 5/5 starts as a 2/2 and the other has defender.

I do like your idea, but I still feel like the card should treat Brainstorm, Ponder and Preordain as equals. You should take the same damage regardless of which one you play.

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

There is only one reason to ban a card in Legacy: to diversify the format because the card in question polarized said format.

Now ask yourself: if we banned Brainstorm, would it actually diversify anything? I honestly doubt it: blue decks would still be ran to offset combo. Hence why I'd rather endorse better disruption for other colors rather than a silly ban on Brainstorm

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I think it's entirely plausible that non-blue midrange/aggro decks would see more play in said environment. Yes, blue decks would still be ran, removing Brainstorm wouldn't completely neuter them. Many combo decks also run Brainstorm so there are other effects to consider.

I agree it's better to elevate the other four colors than bring blue down but I don't feel confident that future releases will help achieve this.

@ Davelin: Fair enough. It's sad that contemporary design philosophy prevents Wizard's R&D from fixing the mistakes they've already made.

@ Dice: Ah: must have misread the first one (seemed like you put -1/-1 counters on it instead of removing them). As far as Brainstorm vs. Ponder/Preordain, there really isn't a way to punish both "Draw X, return/discard Y" and "Scry/see Top X, draw 1" because while the amount you actually see is more than likely the same, they both use different mechanics for doing so.

I thought the was the B&R thread not the Obligatory Shitty Card Excretion thread.

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

Let's try a different approach, k?

(cards that miss the point)

That's what I mean by better disruption for the other colors: something that basically threatens the viability of combo.

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In a format as large as legacy, there are already a ton of cards that individually shut down a combo archetype in specific colors.

White: Rule of law, cannonist, thalia, silence, rest in peace, karakas, oblivion ring, enlightened tutor
Blue: Countermagic, gilded drake, snapcaster, counterbalance, v clique in response, curfew
Red: confusion in the ranks, stingscourger, red elemental blast, pyroblast (admittedly weak selection)
green: willow satyr, worldspine wurm (weakest selection)
black: discard, chains of meph, nether void, innocent blood, surgical extraction
multicolor: deathrite shaman, gaddock teeg, knight of the reliquary, meddling mage, detention sphere, angel of despair, ashen rider, notion thief
colorless: chalice of the void, trinisphere, grafdigger's cage, ensnaring bridge, pithing needle, phyrexian revoker, mindbreak trap, duplicant

The issue is most are not good outside of the matches they are insane in. There is no point printing cards that are replacing other cards in the sideboard. If you want a card to be effective, it has to be maindeck material. the cards you listed are fine against the decks you listed, but I'd never want one of them against a fair matchup since they don't do much of anything.

What combo deck in particular do you think needs to have its validity threatened? Why?

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Originally Posted by rxavage

I thought the was the B&R thread not the Obligatory Shitty Card Excretion thread.

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That's why I'm sad no one commented on my flood of shitty cards... :frown:


Exalted Mystic (WW)
Creature - Cleric Knight

Exalted

Whenever a spell or ability causes
its controller to draw a card,
that player can't play spells until eot.

1/2



Winged Deceiver (UU)
Creature - Djinn

Flying

Blue spells cost :2: more to cast.

2/3



Braindead Hater (BB)
Creature - Zombie Zombie

Fear

If a player would put a card
on the top of library from hand,
that player exiles a card from
his hand instead.

2/1



Book-Burning Emissary (RR)
Creature - Efreet

:r:: +1/+0 until eot.

On each turn counter the first blue spell
cast, unless any player pays one life.

1/3



Marshland Gureillas (GG)
Creature - Human Rebel Soldier

Pro: black
Blue instants cost additional :1: to cast.

2/2