[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

This is for Jain_Mor, I couldn't fit it all in a single PM. It is also Nic Fit stuff so it should be fine.

Making a good Nic Fit deck is about keeping things to a minimum for you to get an advantage. There is rarely a reason to go above and beyond with cute/huge cards other than to satisfy your inner child. The strengths of this deck include a wide and scaling GSZ package (ramp/threats/silver bullets/utility creatures), varied and efficient removal and the full use of Cabal Therapy for maximum disruption. Never forget who the real mvp of this deck are, the stars of this deck are GSZ and Therapy, not Explorer and Rhino/Sigarda.

GSZ package:

4 Green Sun's Zenith - core
4 Deathrite Shaman - core
1 Dryad Arbor - core with GSZ, Therapy, and Equipments

1 Veteran Explorer - never wanted more than one trigger and easier to side out the whole package when kept to a minimum (yes, Explorer/Therapy isn't always good)

1 Gaddock Teeg - concession to combo decks G1

1 Qasali Pridemage - versatile ability, great with Witness

2 Eternal Witness - core, tried splitting with Courser (great with Library) but this card has the best immediate value and most matchup relevance

2 Siege Rhino - 1-2 copies is as many as you'll ever want. I take a Rhino over Meren any day. In fact I would only ever play Meren in a Pod deck. I rarely need Rhinos to grind out a game because BSkull and Sigarda are usually enough. However, when things don't go according to plan, Rhino is my go-to supplemental win condition.

1 Sigarda, Host of Herons - core win con

SFM package:

One of my favorite Nic Fit card because it fetches a win condition and then sacs to Therapy. Batterskull is on par with Sigarda and Jitte is my sweeper of choice.

3 Stoneforge Mystic - about as many as I can support with only 2 equipments.

1 Umezawa's Jitte - core with SFM
1 Batterskull - core with SFM

Removal Package:

I like to have varied removal available in my deck and graveyard so I keep an even split. I have tried 2/4 and 4/2 splits before and the difference is not that significant. To deal with creatures I think StP is the better spell but Decay is definitely the most versatile. If I were to add a 7th removal spell it would probably be a 4th StP or a Toxic Deluge mainboard. I can usually deal with Mom and Nemesis via Liliana or go over them with threats and equipments but if there is ever a creature that gives me trouble it would be one of those.

3 Swords to Plowshares - never play Path to Exile. Giving life does not affect the board state and giving a land when removing a Deathrite against Shardless, a Mom/SFM/Thalia against DnT, a Lackey against Goblins, or even a mana dork against Elves can be an immense setback.

3 Abrupt Decay - Usually my removal spell of choice but since this deck is no dog to Chalice or Counterbalance, I am willing to shave one off for the sake of variety.

Discard package:

Having enough discard is key for any nonblue deck to thrive in a legacy environment. Thoughtseize is the best complement to Cabal Therapy as it offers both quick disruption and hand information. Unless you have psychic powers, hand information will always make your Therapies potential game changers.

4 Cabal Therapy - core
3 Thoughtseize - I never go under 3 copies and 4 can be heavy on the life loss. I will always have the remainder of the playset in the SB.

Others:

3 Liliana of the Veil - I always play 3-4 copies. This card does it all and can be near impossible for most decks to deal with when cast early or on an empty board. Repetitive removal and discard in a single permanent will make you win the topdeck wars, help you stabilize against combo decks, and give you serious game against Miracles G1.

2 Sylvan Library - I prefer this card to Top or Truths because it does everything in one card. I get to top every turn without an upkeep cost and can easily translate life gain from DRS, Rhino or Equipments into additional cards. One copy is a strict minimum for any deck that can play it but two us better due to the sheer power of that card.

Manabase:

I don't like utility lands without much deck manipulation. I prioritize green fetches for Arbor and try to keep duals and basics to a minimum. I will sometimes substitute a Scrubland for a Taiga or Badlands and rework the fetchlands if I want a couple of Blood Moon in my SB for all Dark Depths combo decks and 12 Post.

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard:

I think an Enlightened Tutor package is important as it creates a lot of virtual SB space. I need a strong sideboard for Miracles and most combo decks. I tend to side out Thoughtseize and Teeg against fair decks and all my removal and high end creatures against combo.

1 Scavenging Ooze - good against lands and Pfire decks. Fringe against Burn and can be relevant against Reanimator and Dredge if given the time. Usually replaces Teeg for fair matchups.

1 Duress - Thoughtseize #5
1 Thoughtseize - Core disruption against combo decks

1 Painful Truths - flex slot for fair and grindy matchups

1 Toxic Deluge - postboard panic button against clogged boards. Could easily play a second copy over Painful Truths.

1 Enlightened Tutor - core SB, can fetch all of the cards mentioned below.

1 Tormod's Crypt - Fastest GY hate to be tutored, a concession to Dredge and Reanimator.

1 Pithing Needle - core against Top, Sneak Attack, Jace, Mom, Vial, Thespian Stage, Grindstone, etc... I always pack one in all my SB.

1 Sword of Fire and Ice - gives SFM that grind and makes the SFM package not completely useless against slow combo decks.

1 Ethersworn Canonist - Concession to Elves and Storm

2 Spirit of the Labyrinth - SB mvp against all decks packing cantrips. A great supplemental piece to a strong discard package. Hits hard and fast too. Shines against all combo decks, Delver decks, Miracles, Elves, and even Burn (good clock). I used to play one copy but it quickly became my hatebear of choice.

1 Rest in Peace - Concession to all GY dependant decks. Makes their life difficult

2 Choke - Great against Miracles and Shardless or whenever the Explorer/Therapy package comes out. I also use it against most delver decks and even combo decks.

Here are a few examples of boarding plans:

Miracles
-1 Explorer
-4 Therapy
-3 StP
-1 Jitte
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Painful Truths
+1 ETutor
+1 Needle
+1 SoFaI
+2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
+2 Choke

Storm/SnT
-1 Qasali/+1 Ooze Storm only
-2 Rhino
-1 Sigarda
-3 StP
-3 Decay
-1 Jitte
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Duress
+1 ETutor
+1 RiP (Storm)/+1 Needle (SnT)
+1 SoFaI
+1 Canonist
+2 Spirit of the Lab
+2 Choke

Elves
-1 Explorer
-1 Qasali
-2 Rhino
-1 Sigarda
-2 Library
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Deluge
+1 ETutor
+1 Needle (Symbiote slows Jitte)
+1 Canonist
+2 Spirit of the Lab

Shardless
-1 Explorer
-1 Teeg
-3 Thoughtseize
-4 Therapy
+1 Ooze
+1 Truths
+1 Deluge
+1 SoFaI
+1 RiP
+2 Spirit of the Lab
+2 Choke

DnT
-1 Teeg
-3 Thoughtseize
+1 Painful Truths
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Needle
+1 SoFaI

Delver decks
-1 Teeg
-1 Qasali
-3 Thoughtseize
+1 Ooze
+1 Truths
+1 Toxic Deluge
+2 Choke

Burn

-1 Teeg
-1 Sigarda
-3 Thoughtseize
+1 Ooze
+1 Duress
+1 ETutor (for Jitte)
+2 Spirit of the Lab

I used to run a build similar to that before treasure cruise I think. I like it a lot, it looks great. You posted it about 3 hours too late though D:

Also, I have lotv IRL but can't play LotV online (hopefully she gets a reprint in eternal masters... not getting hopes up though) and I disagree on meren, card is fantastic (I do like double ewit though)

Leg Challenge didnt go so great, lost close game to burn, then got crushed by miracles despite everything again, then lost to 8 post (lol), then faced square_two's GB stax brew and won, then beat RB reanimator, then lost to T1 Show n Tell > griselbrand (my TS got forced -.-) and would have won G2 on a mull to 4 if I weren't so tired.. so yea. Sorry gentleman, tried and failed. Here was the list I ended up running.

I also nearly finished a league before I entered with it, lost to entreat miracles, nahiri miracles then beat eldrazi twice (tusk mvp). TS is great main, and you're silly if you doubt that :P

4 Verd
4 Wind
2 Bay
2 Savan
1 Scrub
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phy tower
Land 22

4 Gsun
4 Vet
2 Drs
1 Ewit
1 Tracker
1 Meren
3 Rhino
1 Tusk
1 Sigarda

3 Top
2 Truths
4 Therapy
2 TS
3 Path
3 Decay
1 Pulse
3 Deed

1 Needle
2 Surgical
2 TS
2 REB
1 Teeg
1 Rec Sage
2 Deluge
3 Slaughter Games
1 Sorin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brael

Let me suggest an alternate build for a sideboard. Rather than worrying about specific cards to begin with, we try to come up with a requirements range on what we want to see. For example, we decided on needing X number of threats (I don't remember what X was anymore). What about identifying how many threats we need post board in the various matchups, and then based on that we know how much needs to come in and out. We can do the same for answers, for mana (DRS really pulls his weight here), and all the rest. And in the end we have a sideboard that can shift from a configuration of say 22 threats, 26 mana, 14 answers, 14 CA in the mainboard to say 30 threats, 24 mana, 10 answers, 10 CA postboard if we need to take an aggressive line but 18 threats, 26 mana, 18 answers, 18 CA if we need to take a controlling line.

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Sounds like a fun plan.

@Jain: Too bad man! Better luck next time!

@qweerios : I play MTG, everything I do, I do for my inner child (and he is quite happy, having seen civil war this friday :tongue:)

@jain : first step : recover from jet lag, second step : play nic fit , third step : profit

@ miracle match up : I've been asking around (either in the miracle source or IRL) miracles players about the cards they fear the most when facing us.
As of now , well it depends of their builds (legend, traditional, nahiri, mentor), but here are the answers I have :

iliana
Gaddock Teeg
Sylvan Library
Lingering Souls
Abrupt Decay
Pithing Needle
Choke

I want to start taking a deeper look at blue lists. I suspect that the blue lists gain a lot against Miracles, random combo decks, and Eldrazi. The problem, as always, remains giving the blue lists enough power. To fix this, I want to take a close look at what Gitrog Monster does for BUG. Ultimate Fit has been doing very good at Mythic, which I think demonstrably shows that the blue shell is very good when paired with a card that yields enough raw power (rhino) to effectively close games instead of just sitting there valuing people to death. Gitrog is a potential on-color answer, but does have the admitted drawback of being legendary.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plm

@qweerios : I play MTG, everything I do, I do for my inner child (and he is quite happy, having seen civil war this friday :tongue:)

@jain : first step : recover from jet lag, second step : play nic fit , third step : profit

@ miracle match up : I've been asking around (either in the miracle source or IRL) miracles players about the cards they fear the most when facing us.
As of now , well it depends of their builds (legend, traditional, nahiri, mentor), but here are the answers I have :

iliana
Gaddock Teeg
Sylvan Library
Lingering Souls
Abrupt Decay
Pithing Needle
Choke

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Choke is increasingly a liability in this matchup due to the inclusion of Nahiri, I think, aside from the multiple Wear/Tears that they're boarding in anyway.

Lingering Souls is an interesting hit.

Gaddock Teeg has been the exact opposite for me. I've had several Miracles players tell me that they're /happy/ when I have Teeg out. They lose Jace and Terminus, but we lose Zenith and our planeswalkers. At that point, the entire fight revolves around Mentor vs Deed, which is fight they are well positioned to win -- especially with our Paths sided out.

http://i.imgur.com/rjjceAu.jpg

Hello everyone, so I have been playing quite a bit online with this decklist and it is pretty much the “final” configuration I feel most comfortable with. I say “final” because this deck sometimes can give headaches to pilots like me who ponder every day how to discover the “best” configuration and the one that suits better my playstyle.
Having said that, let’s begin with the explanations; I’m really looking forward to your feedback, and I have been waiting to post my deck for so long just because I wanted to be sure to present my most stable list.

Lands:
-8 fetches are the minimum since I play 3 tops and 6 basics.
-2 towers because I really really want to maximise the chances to have veteran + tower (or therapy) combo in the early game. The difference in this deck with and without veteran triggers in the early game is the difference between white and black, hence my decision to not opt for a singleton copy. Not 3 for obvious reasons.
-Karakas/1 plains: Karakas replaced the 2nd plain, since we really don’t want to have more than 1 white mana only land in our opener.
-Taiga: I hate it but I accept it because I need it. Explanations later.
-3/2 forests/swamps: despite being a 3 color deck I want to be immune to land hate. With 8 fetches to find the basics I very rarely find myself manascrewed.
-only 1 Savannah/bayou/scrubland: in order to play at least 8 fetches and the amount of basics I want to play, these duals are the bare minimum of non basic lands.

1 drops:
-3 tops: no less than 3 because with all the mana we have in the late game, and without the access to the cantrip cartel, top is THE best card to find our bombs. In the early game it helps to hit our land drops.
-1 DRS: he is awesome but nonbos with deed, and it’s not like having 1 instead of 2 is going to make a huge difference against say reanimator or tin fins. As a GSZ deck, 1 is enough.
-4 Veteran: the most underrated card in the deck. Considering how my deck is constructed (4 rhinos, PW in the sb, no SFM, no low cmc creatures) I really want to hit that late game button and he is the shortest way to do that. He is a wall against decks like eldrazi or non delver bug decks, a shuffle effect, combos with therapy and tower, and stalls even more with a meren in play.
-4 Therapies: don’t need to explain this.
-2 Thoughtseize: I am alone in this, only Jain shares my appreciation towards this card. Early game interaction is KEY against all the combo decks, but even against eldrazi or miracles: sniping early a TKS or a smasher is backbreacking for them. Very beneficial synergy with cabal therapy, terrible late game draw, but top mitigates that wonderfully.
-2 paths: only 2 because I live in a meta that has a 25% Miracles presence, roughly. In a normal meta I’d play a 3-3 split between decay and path.

2 drops:
-1 ooze: we are a GSZ deck after all.
-4 decay: a life saving card, and one of the best cards in the deck. Deals with CB, but more importantly helps against VERY problematic cards like (an early) Mentor and Liliana of The Veil. In the online meta I simply cannot play less than 4.

3 drops:
-3 deeds: together with rhino it is the best card in the deck in my opinion. It represents virtual CA, and it is a bomb we can detonate whenever we want, letting us establish board control (the whole goal of this deck). Helps tremendously against creature decks AND miracles (deluge sucks against non creature permanents, obviously..), if you play this card smartly it will literally save the game and open the way for (more) rhinos. With the way I have constructed this deck, the only thing that dies to deed are the singletons DRS and ooze.
-1 pulse/1 unmaking: this duo is necessary because, again, miracles and its JTMS. Jace is a problem so I want to have 2 cards that deal with him. EOT unmaking is SO SO underrated, even with a CB in play we can bait their top 3 setup and snipe their jace at instant speed. This is gonna be a strong statement: I like Unmaking more than vindicate. While vindicate is the best card in a vacuum, the land destruction part of it never really came up that much (maybe a couple time to snipe a cradle, but elves is not that common online….cuz miracles of course). Unmaking even deals with marit lage. It's not that you are wrong if you play vindicate, but I personally like it less than AU.
-1 witness: the green snapcaster in the GSZ deck.
-1 truths / 1 scrying: the sweet spot in my opinion is to play 2 CA cards. I could play 3 but the 3rd CA card is represented by Tracker, a card I have been trying recently. He gives CA on legs (and roids, if he gets to stick on the board until we can crack its clues) that can be GSZ’d for. I like the split with scrying for their variety, and because SS can be (and often is) a better card; it is even an instant.
-1 tracker: as I said, I am experimenting with this guy so I have to decide if he is here to stay or not, but as a 3rd CA card I am liking it. It demands immediate answer or he can became a threat no less dangerous than our good rhino friend. The difference between Tracker and the other "controversial" 3 drops (Nissa and Courser) is that he needs to eat a removal spell on the spot or otherwise he is gonna provide so much CA while being a threat. I need to test him more though.

4 drops:
-4 rhinos: go big or go home.
-1 Meren: she is a situational card, and by situational I mean that she is awesome against some decks, decent (but still a 4 drop, and a legend=drawbacks) in others. The fact that she cannot be bolted is probably the reason she stays in the main deck, as she is still always gonna be at least a 3/4 eternal witness if we happen to draw it. Gets sided out against stp.decks.

5 drops:
-1 sigarda: the queen herself, and the best win condition at our disposal.

X drops:
-4 GSZ: Duh.


Sideboard
-3 games: game changer (got it?) against miracles, I have tried random stuff like Mistcutter Hydra and Giant Solifuge, but against that deck I will often mulligan a 7/10 hand JUST to try to find a s games in the opener. 1st call: JTMS; 2nd call: it depends on what I see in the opponents deck, If they have entreat I name it, otherwise terminus.
-1 teeg: hatebear.
-Garruk/sorin: the PWs I like the most, you all know them already. I will only say that they are here for miracles and for shardless (garruk).
-2 canonists/2 surgicals/1 duress: combo (and gy) hate. Surgical is gonna come in against miracles as well.
-1 deluge: sweeper that cannot be hated on, it’s gonna come in to supplement the removal at our disposal against decks like delver, elves and even eldrazi (even though it can be a particularly situational card in this match up).
-1 grip: SFM decks and Sensei’s diving top decks.
-1 safekeeper: he is nice against stp decks, but I’m gonna board him in even against storm: he is a cheap GSZ target/topdeck that can establish a game winning lock with either a canonist or a teeg in play.
-1 PoP: the spice in the deck. Helps tremendously against BAD mu like lands, 12 POST, MUD and helps against infect and BUG decks as well. As a 1 of I like it a lot and justifies once more the presence of taiga.

I'm not going to write my sb tactics right now because this was a long writing session and I'm tired. I'm looking forward to your constructive criticism.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

Wonderful, well thought out post

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See the above. I wish I had your patience. I should find the time to do the same for my crazy signature lists. Might teach myself a thing or two on why I come up with such madness.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

See the above. I wish I had your patience. I should find the time to do the same for my crazy signature lists. Might teach myself a thing or two on why I come up with such madness.

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I waited to post it untill I had my most stable configuration! Thanks for the kind words.
The 4 rhino deck is really a whole different deck compared to the sfm, angels, rock-ish, eldrazi versions so I didn't even compare my choices with theirs: if you play 1 veteran and 1 rhino in my opinion you are playing a different deck.
Nothing bad about it, to each their own, but it had no sense to make comparisons between those decks and mine.

The main is very similar to the list I ended up running so here are a few points in order by what I think is most important.

1) you have 4 rhinos, that's a lot. I know it's sexy to run the full 4, but I really must insist on exchanging one of them for a Thragtusk. The amount of times you will be punished because you NEED the 4th rhino and it happens to be a 5 mana 5/3 that gains you 5 life and leaves behind a 3/3 is basically nothing. But the amount of times you get punished because you don't have a Thragtusk at all is a countable number. The card is super relevant against 5 toughness creatures (angler, goyf, eldrazi, etc), terminus, Jace bounce, StP, removal in general etc. it's a rhino with card advantage.

2) I love scooze, but this deck struggles if it can't get out of the early game. DRS performs a very similar hate effect against graveyard decks and yet is so much better in the stage of the game we are most vunerable, where as Scooze is better in the stage of the game we are most comfortable. So I advocate changing the scooze to Drs because doubling your chance of drawing that mana dork is real, and I think scooze is giving the deck less value and points in comparison just because we want our gsuns to be versatile.

3) when I was playing with the deck 2 painful truth affects main felt like too many. Drawing it against burn, eldrazi, delver etc was quite harsh. And it's not like I was behind on cards without it (except against shardless sometimes, but deed and Meren fix that for you). So I'd consider moving it to the side for another interactive piece, path, teeg, sylvan safekeeper (the scooze I cut above?) or something less painful like sylvan library.

No comment about yesterday MKM?

JONAS ZIMMERMANN – NICFIT
MAIN DECK:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Taiga
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
1 Innocent Blood
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Trinket Mage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Shriekmaw
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Thragtusk
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Birthing Pod
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer

SIDEBOARD:
3 Slaughter Games
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Minister of Pain
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Spell Pierce
1 Notion Thief
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

I find it very interesting, expecially in the manabase (1 Drs, 4 zenith for multiple veteran)

That list is basicly my version of the deck with the main difference of switching Brainstorm for Zenith, im not 100% about that change, you definitely get much more raw power but the deck looks way more Veteran dependant.

Still looks solid to me, playing my version i can understand this deck doing good, that list should smash a good chunk of the metagame easily.

The pilot's reason for deck selection was amusing to me.

A good friend of mine / local playtest partner / part of my road crew has been doing very well at Mythic (a top 4 and a top 8 in March/April respectively, couldn't make it up in May due to work) with the following, and I want to bring it up and look closer at it in the public eye:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Deadeye Navigator

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Mana Confluence
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp

sb::
2 Disfigure
1 Notion Thief
2 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Krosan Grip
2 Thoughtseize
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Taiga
3 Slaughter Games

Some of you may remember what I dubbed Ultimate Fit some months ago. This deck was mostly a thought experiment wherein I acknowledged that the best cards red and white give you, by a lot, are Slaughter Games and Siege Rhino, respectively. The goal was to take a blue Nic Fit shell, include Brainstorm, and maindeck the Rhinos in an attempt to solve blue's historic problem: a flaccid lack of raw power. Since Rhino and Slaughter are generally mutually exclusive, the idea is to side out the Savannah and the Rhinos when you bring in Taiga and Slaughters. This eases the the strain on the deck substantially -- we can handle 4 colors surprisingly easy, but 5 is challenging. Note that there is one substantially exception to this: vs Miracles you can board in the Taiga and Slaughters for free, which ups your threat density enormously at very little cost.

Courser is likely going to become a 3rd Strix or a Deadly Recluse, but otherwise, the deck has been performing admirably. It does have a significant achilles heel vs Lands, which I'm not entirely sure is reasonably fixable. It might be worth it to accept Lands as a lost cause for this particular version and re-focus on other things (this would allow us to cut the Pithing Needles in favor of better cards). By contrast, Phil is currently 4-2 vs Eldrazi, largely on the back of Baleful Strix, which they have no real good answer to other than just running into it. Both of the matches he lost were to nut draws, which is just going to happen with that deck sometimes. Some hands they're just going to go Chalice@1 into Thought-Knot Seer on turns 1 & 2 and you're going to die. Shops happens.

Obviously this deck is all well and good and all, but my next examination for brewing is to take another look at BUG now that Gitrog is out. Other than a sad weakness to Karakas, Gitrog is an on-color, very, very powerful card. If we can add enough power to BUG to where we don't need to splash white for Rhinos, I think that deck could be very well positioned. Blue has one of the single best weapons to fight Miracles, in the form of Glen Elendra Archmage. We may not even need to maintain the red splash for Slaughter, although it's possible that it would still be correct.

Now, whether this is the fabled Traverse the Ulvenwald approach or not is an open question. Furthermore, whether there's a combo with Gitrog involved or not is another open question. Obviously discard outlet + Dakmor Salvage goes "infinite" - functionally with an original Eldrazi Titan in the list, virtually without. The question at that point is if there are any on color discard outlets with viable text that are worth including the combo.

The only reasonable ones I see flipping through Gatherer are:
Mind over Matter
Psychatog
Wild Mongrel

Mind over Matter is too expensive and too color intensive. Psychatog is likely the best payoff, but you need to find a way for it to connect or else to Fling it (Rite of Consumption?). Wild Mongrel is a Zenithable discard outlet that gets as large as you can dredge. Smaller than 'Tog, but shares the same problem -- you need to find a way to make it actually kill someone.

Special Note: Trade Routes

This card does charge you a mana, but it will work with Dakmor Salvage. You can pay 1: dredge 2, as many times as you have 1 mana. This turns Gitrog into an actual draw engine, since you activate Routes, discard Dakmor (trigger), draw off Routes (dredge 2), tigger resolves. That is assuming that you don't dredge past a land, which would net you another card. If you did hit a land, you are paying 1 mana for 3 cards (Dakmor + 2 randoms).

Now, this all looks sweet, but there's a big problem. An active Deathrite Shaman is backbreaking, and I hear that guy sees some play in the format. Furthermore, most decks have some amount of graveyard hate that we need to worry about -- Miracles would immediately bring in RIP, for one. The question then becomes, how much can we really focus on this combo? At what point do we just run Gitrog as a value engine, and not as a combo piece. Traitor's Clutch is the only kill spell with flashback that I can see, that would allow a Mongrel / 'Tog to actually kill the opponent. Unfortunately, there's no flashback Fling -- in order to accomplish that, we'd need to use Memory's Journey to put Rite of Consumption on top of our deck after dredging its entirety, then use Top to draw it.

This all feels like vastly too many steps to me. To recap, the /cleanest/ 1-turn kill here is this:

Have a Top in play.
Have 1BG open.
Have Wild Mongrel and Gitrog in play with Dakmor in hand.
Dredge entire deck.
Flashback Memory's Journey, targeting Rite of Consumption.
Tap Top, draw a card.
Cast Rite of Consumption, sacrificing an arbitrarily sized Wild Mongrel.
Win.

This is assuming the opponent is hellbent and has no Deathrite or ScavOoze in play. It is worth noting that this is technically a 7-mana kill, which is the same as Scapewish. You play Gitrog on 5, play a land to 6, stay at 6 after saccing (so you need another land, which is #7), Zenith up Mongrel and go to town with 1BG untapped for Journey and Rite.

At the end of the day, I think that this combo, while realistic, is probably more effort than its worth. It requires you to run a Wild Mongrel and a Memory's Journey, neither of which are really that great. Rite of Consumption isn't quite as wildly unplayable, but it definitely isn't good, either. The only real reason it gets a "meh" pass is because you can use it as an uncounterable outlet for Veteran, and it's not completely useless lategame.

Maybe there's some Madness cards that would help Mongrel be better -- I'm not sure beyond knowing that Mongrel does have a very impressive historical pedigree. I also have done like six gatherer searches at this point and don't really want to do another.

Okay, so moving forward.

If we operate under the assumption that the above combo is too convoluted / requires too many things to go right, which, again, I believe is a reasonable stance, then we need to evaluate Gitrog on a "fair" scale. It has a very strong body, only losing to the mightiest of Goyfs (and even then it technically trades). It enables landfall, for whatever that matters -- I guess Tireless Tracker. It turns cycle lands into 1 mana: Draw 2, Wasteland cantrips, fetches cantrip. Again, Karakas is a problem.

Gitrog is unlikely to be a win condition on its own. Since it lacks Trample, the best it can do against most opponents/board states (assuming it stays in play) is Abyss the opponent while drawing cards. That's certainly strong and fine, but it's not going to actually /end/ the game since it's not pushing damage through. That makes me want a Nylea, God of the Hunt. Trample and Deathtouch interact extremely favorably, and it would allow for Gitrog to actually close out games. The trick at that point, of course, is justifying Nylea. She does have a good mana sink -- for 4 mana you can turn a topdeck Veteran into a 3/3, or a 5/5 for 8, which isn't...the worst...when you're topdecking with a pile of mana. Giving a Thragtusk trample seems fine, same with Tireless Tracker since he can get real big, real quick.

Hmm. What would a sample creature suite look like?

4 Vet
2 Deathrite
3 Strix
1 Sakura
2 Tracker
1 E.Wit
1 Edric
1 Fierce Empath
1 Nylea
1 Meren
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Gitrog
1 Thragtusk
1 Con Sphinx
1 Grave Titan

That's 22 creatures in a pretty nice spread. Colossus in particular is a match made in heaven with Nylea. The deck is going to have a deep enough "lands matter" theme that a 2nd Tracker is justified, I think. Grave vs Prime is debatable, but let's see where we go from here.

22 creatures, if we stick with that number, leaves us with 17 slots remaining for spells, assuming 22 lands and 61 cards. Some of you are cringing right now. I don't care.

4 Therapy
4 Zenith

9 slots left.

3 Deed
3 Top

3 slots left. We could run 21 lands with 4 Brainstorms, at this point, or we could fill in 2 Decay 1 Pulse and call it good. This is where blue always runs into problems: the space.

Let's reverse tracks. What would an ideal spell suite for a blue-based list look like (Zeniths, not Traverses)?

4 Therapy
4 Zenith
1 Pulse
1 P.Truths

4 Brainstorm
3 Decay
1 Silence the Believers? (I want some kind of exile removal, but this is pretty awful....is it the best option? o.O)

3 Deed

2 Top

This is 23 spells, which means if you want the ideal spell loadout (with very little tech present here, too), and 21 lands, you have room for 17 creatures.

Let's pull it together:

4 Vet
2 Deathrite
3 Strix
1 Sakura
2 Tracker
1 E.Wit
1 Edric
1 Fierce Empath
1 Nylea
1 Meren
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Gitrog
1 Thragtusk
1 Con Sphinx
1 Grave Titan

4 Therapy
4 Zenith
1 Pulse
1 P.Truths

4 Brainstorm
3 Decay
1 Silence the Believers?

3 Deed

2 Top

21 lands

66 cards atm, 5 cuts needed.

The Silence slot is an easy cut, and I think the 2 Tops can probably come out. We removed the last Top from ultimate Fit and he's been fine, and this deck has more card advantage, by a lot, than that deck does. That means we need to cut 2 creatures. Let's move Grave into Primeval, so we can cut the Fierce Empath. Primeval is likely better in this deck anyway, and it might let us get a little cheeky with our lands. The last cut is likely either Deathrite 2 or Strix 3, and I think I like Strix 3 more -- it's better vs the meta (delver and eldrazi hate it), and it synergizes with Edric better.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Thragtusk
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Painful Truths

4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed

2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

sb::
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Painful Truths
1 Notion Thief
2 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm

Here's the final brew, cleaned up and with lands. I didn't end up having enough space to do anything too cute with the manabase. Volrath's is begrudgingly there because you do really want something to grab with Titan, and the Two Towers is probably the best thing to do with the space available. Something that's worth noting here: this is a BUG deck that happens to have a Gitrog as a powerful card. This is not a deck that's centered around Gitrog. There's no Loam, there's no cycle lands, no Trade Routes, etc. I'm sure the card can be leveraged better than this deck is doing, but I'm not sure where the happy medium is for that. It's possible that the answer is just straight G/B, to leave more space for toys. I dunno.

The sideboard is a rough sketch, but is fairly robust. Lands is going to be a major problem, as is Burn. I could potentially see Death and Taxes needing some more attention, too, but it would need tested. My initial impression looking over the completed brew is that it is likely very effective against the tier 1 decks of the format, but will have some issues with the more random decks -- not a great place to be for the first couple rounds of a GP, but a great place to be if you survive them (or have byes).

Now, whether this is more effective than Ultimate Fit is another story, and is a question I don't know that I can answer. It looks more consistent, and it draws a billion cards. It does have a level of raw power. It gets a lot of sweet sideboard options without needing to add another color (Teeg doesn't count). It also doesn't need to run expensive planeswalkers or Slaughter Games or Tsunamis, so I feel comfortable including Teeg here. Safekeeper could possibly want to be maindeck, possibly over the final remaining Deathrite -- Safekeeper is a nice combo with Gitrog, and a Consecrated Sphinx protected by Safekeeper is a special circle of hell for the opponent.

I dunno. My idea vomit is done for now. I still need to figure out what the heck version I want to take to Charlotte with me =/

The plan I had with Gitrog Monster was to use the Wild Mongrel to Dredge two thirds of the deck or so, then grind a win by retracing Worm Harvest every turn till the opponent loses. Maybe with some way of preventing decking ourselves, which could just be Life From The Loam to ensure we have access to a Volrath's Stronghold. Just need a repeatable way of killing Deathrites reliably, preferably from the bin. Note that if we have a way of ditching a land to Mongrel or fetching or whatever, we can Dredge Salvage in response to DRS to stop it from being exiled.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arianrhod

That makes me want a Nylea, God of the Hunt. Trample and Deathtouch interact extremely favorably, and it would allow for Gitrog to actually close out games. The trick at that point, of course, is justifying Nylea. She does have a good mana sink -- for 4 mana you can turn a topdeck Veteran into a 3/3, or a 5/5 for 8, which isn't...the worst...when you're topdecking with a pile of mana. Giving a Thragtusk trample seems fine, same with Tireless Tracker since he can get real big, real quick.

---

Thanks Arianrhod for considering Nylea, as I suggested. Maybe we can give a chance to Vigor instead of Primeval Titan? Breaks any creature deck without white.

Quote:

---

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Thragtusk
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Painful Truths

4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed

2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

sb::
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Painful Truths
1 Notion Thief
2 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm

---

This looks like a spicy fucking meatball.

I'll have to catch up with this thread over the next few days. Sorry I've been MIA (closing on my house soon + weddings).
I didn't do so hot at Mythic's May event (2-3 drop). SFM was hit-or-miss...but where it hit (see: voltron'ed her up against DnT), I clearly wouldn't have been able to win otherwise.

I was really frustrated with the deck that weekend. Hands and draws not in my favor. SFM was strong for consistency reasons but without a single P.Truth in the list, I ran out of gas often.
I'm circling on the optimal build. I may abandon Rhino altogether, but I'll leave that discussion for another day. Not happy with Rhino tbh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

Sounds like a fun plan.

---

I tried this and my logic always lead me back to the same place. I want to hit the opponent with things. I could lower my threat count and hit all the other requirements, but if I'm doing that, why not just add some more threats on top of that because I could?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I dunno. My idea vomit is done for now. I still need to figure out what the heck version I want to take to Charlotte with me =/

---

I've been fascinated with BUG for awhile, I'm trying to decide on my next big Magic purchase if I go with an Underground Sea+Tropical Island to enable BUG (and to get me up to 8/10 ABU's, slowly trying to work my way up to a cube manabase) or if I go with a playset of Liliana of the Veil.

Love the idea of using Edric especially alongside Nylea to always hit and blue also opens up Trygon Predator in the board over Qasali Pridemage. It's evasive with Edric, trades with a Delver, and blows up Moats, Counterbalances, and so on.

Let me make a suggestion with your build that might free up some spaces for you: Tracker doesn't want Brainstorm. Usually with Brainstorm you're putting back excess lands and getting better cards exchanging 1 land for 1 card plus some selection. With Tracker on the other hand you're exchanging 1 land for 1-2 cards depending on if it's a fetch (averaging 1.4 cards with the usual manabase) and Tops already provide selection.

Let me suggest another way to go here too. If we're in blue, what about Shardless Agent with Top to set it up? Tracker could be pretty neat with Daze as well, turning a counterspell into a cantrip later in the game when it's normally dead but obviously you don't want Daze and Agent together.

I just tried Nic Fit: The Consecrated Monster (Arianrhod's list posted above) against Infect. Surprisingly strong. I put in Courser of Kruphix to pair with Tireless Tracker (its bonkers in my opinion), plus Nylea is pretty cool with Edric.
Loss to Reanimator. No interaction possible beyond Therapy and DRS, so pretty bad.
So far pretty cool. Some may ask though, why not just play Food Chain?

After long reading i finally would like to present a Gb Gitrog List on my own.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Meren of CLan Nel Toth
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan

3 Pernicious Deed

2 Sensei`s Divining Top

2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Green Sun`s Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Abrupt Decay

2 Lilianan of the Veil

2 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dustbowl
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Savannah

Sideboard
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Chhoke
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm

I would be realy thankful for any kind of Feedback you could give.