[Deck] Goblins

Ok, just want some opinions on this, as of now I have not gotten Root Maze and so I am going to build to deal with a Combo heavy meta without a green splash. I am not going to add white just yet leaving that for later when we are closer to tournament time and just spring the rabbit from the hat. I also think Mono red is better to help me relearn my deck. (I also found out that one of the ladies that plays locally and her boyfriend read this so Hi, please don't build too harshly against me please.)

Ok so the deck list was (and I wish there was spoiler tags):

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Critters
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Artifacts
4 Æther Vial

Land
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
10 Mountain

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Tuktuk Scrapper
SB: 4 Pyrokinesis

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Now what I have done to deal with combo:
-1 SGC
-1 Gempalm
-1 Port
-3 MWM

+2 Stinger
+2 Winsigator
+2 Basic Mountain

Yet undecided
-1 Chieftain
+1 Warchief

Sideboard
-1 CotV
-1 Kinesis
-3 Pithing
-3 Crypt

+1 Scrapper
+3 Relic
+4 Pyroblast (thinking about splitting 2 and 2 REB)

Thoughts:
Running 4 stingers is a risk, I am not sure if it will pay off but I am finding more and more that I am seeing critters I can not handle and if I could bounce them I would have less trouble. I will take this number to 3 no matter but 4 seams like an ok starting point and I would like to test it.

The drop of the MWM for WIn is an attempt to speed up the deck. I am finding the tokens useful for pumping Piledriver though and this test will likely find itself reversed. I have also added the extra Mountain to deal with the cost of said creature. I dislike the drop of a port but it was the best option I had.

On the sideboard
Pithing is not so useful to me in this deck, moving them to my burn deck.
Crypt is making way for Relic
Pyro comes in as a counter to blue, somthing that is running rampant locally.
The extra Scrapper is to deal with a few artifacts that are local and a Trinisphere deck I may have buffed in trading.

So what are the thoughts on these changes? I am of two minds mostly on Kiki, I think putting SGC in that slot might be best. The drop of the Chieftain for the Warchief might speed the deck up but I am not sure if I like the power drop. Anyway those are my thoughts.

Dice.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Now what I have done to deal with combo:
-1 SGC
-1 Gempalm
-1 Port
-3 MWM

+2 Stinger
+2 Winsigator
+2 Basic Mountain

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If you want to get a better matchup vs combo, I think that Thalia should be your 2-drop of choice.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Yet undecided
-1 Chieftain
+1 Warchief

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I like this. I think that 4 Warchiefs is just non-negotiable, like 4 Lackeys or Ringleaders.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Sideboard
-1 CotV
-1 Kinesis
-3 Pithing
-3 Crypt

+1 Scrapper
+3 Relic
+4 Pyroblast (thinking about splitting 2 and 2 REB)

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All good. I think that you might decide that you want the 4th CotV in a few weeks, and a 2/2 split of REB/Pyro could be too much vs SnT, but give it a try and see how it plays.

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Originally Posted by magicmerl

7. Say how big my Piledrivers are in their declare blockers step

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Why do you say that? Why make it easier for your opponent to choose the right block(s)?

Just to make the game go quicker (I'd do the same about saying how big a Tarmogoyf is too). I want my opponent to trust me about the public board state.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Now what I have done to deal with combo:
-1 SGC
-1 Gempalm
-1 Port
-3 MWM

+2 Stinger
+2 Winsigator
+2 Basic Mountain

Sideboard
-1 CotV
-1 Kinesis
-3 Pithing
-3 Crypt
+1 Scrapper
+3 Relic
+4 Pyroblast

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If you want to improve your combo-MU you have to do the following:
* run as many SGCs as possible
* run as many Ports as possible
* run as many Winstigators as possible
* run as few lands as possible (22 in cae you are playing with 4 Ports)
* run as few removalspells as possible

So I have colored your choices in red to point out that this is not the way to go to deal with combo-decks and green means, that you have made a good decision there.
Getting more Stingscourgers is debatable. They are obviously good vs. Show&Tell.dec but bad vs. STORM-combo decks (in general you should differentiate between those types of combodecks, otherwise people will be confused what exactly you mean by "combo")

Further suggestions:
* play Mindbreak Trap vs. Storm-Combo
* kick Lightning Crafter and Sharpshooter (they are too slow)
* read the opening post's section about (storm-)combo hate cards


//EDIT:
I partly agree with Nelis. However, people will almost always ask you about the P/T of your attacking Piledrivers - that's the moment when you have to give them the correct answer. (well, ofc you can be a dick and say "Count it yourself!" or "Je ne te comprends pas.")

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

I partly agree with Nelis. However, people will almost always ask you about the P/T of your attacking Piledrivers - that's the moment when you have to give them the correct answer.

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Agree here too. I only tell the power of Piledriver when they ask.
Also, when playing with Goyf, I only tell the P/T when they ask. There is no need to indicate it, unlike say, Knight of the Relicary, that have counters. Of course, you can never lie.
When playing against opposing Tarmogoyfs, if they don't put a die on it, I put a die on my table indicating his power. No need to tell the opponent what the die is about too.

I played at my local store with the following Rwg list:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 vial

3 thalia
1 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 TSH

1 Stingscourger
3 Gempalm Incinerator

4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Warchief

4 Goblin Ringleader
2 krenko


Land
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
3 Mountain
1 karakas
1 plateau
1 taiga
5 red fetches


//Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
2 grafdigger s cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 rest in peace
1 Pyrokinesis
2 krosan grip
1 piledriver
1 sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger

ended up 4-1-1. I won against UW miracles, maverick, patriot aggro, 5 color control deathrite. Lost to punishing jund
and drew the last match to get into prices.

The deck played well and having 7 haste lord feels pretty damn awsome. Decks that run sweepers cannot stand chieftain.
They clear the board and next turn you are casting again hasted goblins that get +1/+1. They really don t get enough
time to re-stabilize. Chieftain makes MWM a house and krenko gets insane.
At one point against marerick something insane happened. He passes the turn with with a knight 6/6, mom and noble hierarch.
He is at 21 life and I am at 6. I know that I am dead next turn and the only thing I have on board is MWM, a token, TSH and vial @4...
So I tap vial EOT and put a krenko into play. I untap, draw a card and play chieftain. I tap krenko and make 5 tokens. I bounce
Krenko with karakas, tap vial for krenko and activate its ability once again to make 10 more tokens. I attack for 30+ damage and win.
It felt awsomely unfair.

Thalia feels right. It is really difficult to judge how good she is though. She is good because your opponent doesn t
get to play spells... but how do you measure that? In the course of the game you cannot see the impact she has had but
I feel like she does a lot little by little. It seems like she is a must answer for a lot of decks.

The most interesting part of the deck is the 2cc in my opinion. We have a lot of options: thalia, piledriver, MWM and WI. I know that
everybody has a different opinion on this. I think that the 2 best 2 drops are MWM and thalia. Thalia is awsome against combo and control
while MWM is awsome against aggro. A mix of the 2 is the way to go IMO. I felt really disappointed about piledriver yesterday. I always
wanted to cast either MWM or thalia on my second turn and I have never tutored him. The fact is that if you have an empty board he
is bad whereas if you have some goblins down chieftain is 99% of the times just better. I think I will move it to the sideboard and free
the space for an extra MWM next time.


EDIT: The games worked out as follows:
Round 1: UW miracle 2-1
Round 2: punishing jund 0-2
Round 3: Maverick 2-0
Round 4: 5 color control deathrite shaman 2-1
Round 5: patriot aggro 2-0

2 out of 4 of my losses were due to E. plague.

This is so true:

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Originally Posted by fimo

The most interesting part of the deck is the 2cc in my opinion. We have a lot of options: thalia, piledriver, MWM and WI. I know that
everybody has a different opinion on this.

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Might come in stupid, but really, what keeps us from playing 11 cc2 cards, being 4 Piledriver, 4 MWM and 3 Thalias? I didn't work out a list yet, but I feel like those cards really make the difference.

Talking about cc2 cards...I need some more data for my analysis.
@fimo: can you please edit your last posting and add the results of your first 5 games, in this fashion:
Round 1: 2-1
Round 2: 2-0
[...]
Would help me a great deal.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Might come in stupid, but really, what keeps us from playing 11 cc2 cards, being 4 Piledriver, 4 MWM and 3 Thalias? I didn't work out a list yet, but I feel like those cards really make the difference.

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There you go a start:

4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Mountain
5 Fetch
1 Karakas
2 Plateau
1 Taiga

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

3 Thalia
3 Mogg Warmarchall
3 Goblin Piledriver

4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger

1 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Sideboard:
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Confusion in the Ranks

2 Rest in Peace
2 Relic of Progenitus

3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Krosan Grip

Does not seem particulary better than anything we have yet. Still, looks like a solid start.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Agree here too. I only tell the power of Piledriver when they ask.
Also, when playing with Goyf, I only tell the P/T when they ask. There is no need to indicate it, unlike say, Knight of the Relicary, that have counters. Of course, you can never lie.
When playing against opposing Tarmogoyfs, if they don't put a die on it, I put a die on my table indicating his power. No need to tell the opponent what the die is about too.

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It's funny to place a fake dice on a goyf :D .. totally legit. Good way to throw newbie players off-balance.

I like that 9 2-drop list, although I have a couple of comments on it.

1. I don't think that TSH is mandatory in any way. I'd be more than happy to cut him for the 4th port (and 23rd land).

2. I think that the 6th fetch is better than the 3rd mountain.

3. The sideboard looks solid, although I am iffy on the Storm/SnT cards (Mindbreak Trap and Confusion in the Ranks respectively). I think that CotV has a broader range of applications, and Angel of Despair is just better than CitR.

4. I know they aren't core, but I would dearly miss Prospector and Sharpshooter, since they are pretty key vs random Jittes, much more so than TSH.

Nice starting list. I just did a quick build and thought of some questions.

1) Why not cut a Gempalm and add a stinger? Why run 4 Gem at all?
2) Why totally cut Prospector? (My onslaught roots here. I feel naked without him. What would be the reason for cutting him totally?)
3) With Thalia in the deck does WInsgator become obsolete? I mean I like WMW, fast and effective but WIn has power too. Does adding the 3 non goblins really kill his use?
4) Why the cut to Piledriver. Of all the 3 of's this one I feel the least comfortable doing.
5) Is Tin a smart one off in a deck running 4 Warchiefs?

Dice.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Nice starting list. I just did a quick build and thought of some questions.

1) Why not cut a Gempalm and add a stinger? Why run 4 Gem at all?
2) Why totally cut Prospector? (My onslaught roots here. I feel naked without him. What would be the reason for cutting him totally?)
3) With Thalia in the deck does WInsgator become obsolete? I mean I like WMW, fast and effective but WIn has power too. Does adding the 3 non goblins really kill his use?
4) Why the cut to Piledriver. Of all the 3 of's this one I feel the least comfortable doing.
5) Is Tin a smart one off in a deck running 4 Warchiefs?

Dice.

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Just to answer the questions (becaus as I said, it was just a sketch)
1 - Gempalm is a better allaround card. According to GobboLord statistics that he posted some pages ago, the vast majority of winning list play no more than 1 Sting, and 4 Gempalms, and after lots and lots of practice and tournament play, I agree with that.
2 - Just because. It's a sketch. If you want to test it feel free to cut TSH and somethin else for Prospector and Shooter.
3 - Adding 3 non-goblins does not make WI that worse. Again, sketch. Might be that WI is awesome alongside Thalia.
4 - ...
5 - Yes, and has aways been.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

1 - Gempalm is a better allaround card. According to GobboLord statistics that he posted some pages ago, the vast majority of winning list play no more than 1 Sting, and 4 Gempalms, and after lots and lots of practice and tournament play, I agree with that.

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Ok I will have a deeper look into that. Maybe my view is just a little tainted by the shear volume of Snt locally.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

2 - Just because. It's a sketch. If you want to test it feel free to cut TSH and somethin else for Prospector and Shooter.

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I am thinking on cutting Shooter and calling it a day with him. Of the 15 or some games I have played with him of late, only in one of the matches did I think he would have been helpful. Sounds like a sideboard card to me. Prospector tho I feel can help pull some strange stuff out of the bag and his diffusing of Jite is something I can not undervalue. First time I have used matron to find a Prospector thats for sure.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

3 - Adding 3 non-goblins does not make WI that worse. Again, sketch. Might be that WI is awesome alongside Thalia.

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Will have a go testing this. See if I can turn up early next week and get me some new lands.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

4 - ...

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Helpful.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

5 - Yes, and has aways been.

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I find this one strange. I mean if you drop a Warchief then suddenly he can not do his job. I know the two drop makes him useful, I just wonder why him over other Goby art hate when there is risks that he might be defused by your own deck?

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

I find this one strange. I mean if you drop a Warchief then suddenly he can not do his job. I know the two drop makes him useful, I just wonder why him over other Goby art hate when there is risks that he might be defused by your own deck?

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Suggested reading:
Hot Topics of Goblins

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Suggested reading:
Hot Topics of Goblins

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Thanks. Was searching for the discussion that happened here regarding TSH with Warchiefs. Happened a couple of times already, and there are comments in some tournament reports. Don't have the time to find it now. But basically is completely fine to run them both. Just play smart in case you think you'll need to blow something up.

OK, will splash green and give it a go.

Could anybody start me off with a good instagator list? It seems good in a combo infested meta like mine.

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Originally Posted by goblinsplayer

Could anybody start me off with a good instagator list? It seems good in a combo infested meta like mine.

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4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
10-11 Mountain
1-2 Chrome Mox

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Warren Instigator

2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki Jiki, Mirrorbreaker

2-3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
3-4 Lightning Bolt / Tarfire

Sideboard (for my meta):

1 Chrome Mox
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

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Originally Posted by goblinsplayer

Could anybody start me off with a good instagator list? It seems good in a combo infested meta like mine.

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Why don't you brainstorm a list yourself and post it here for feedback?