Wow. Warping Wail is pretty out there. This is an actual counterspell that we can cast. What a powerful too it is. It counters Elves, the deck. Virtually that entire deck is tiny pukes and sorceries. It looks like it might be maindeck material.
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Wow. Warping Wail is pretty out there. This is an actual counterspell that we can cast. What a powerful too it is. It counters Elves, the deck. Virtually that entire deck is tiny pukes and sorceries. It looks like it might be maindeck material.
Yup, Warping Wail looks to be a very nice addition. Pretty much counters every important card in most combo decks. Definitely going to have this as a 4 of in the Goblins sideboard. Could even try 1 or 2 in the main as you suggested Finn.
Match-by-match look at the card:
Miracles: Counters Terminus, Entreat, Council's Judgment. Instant speed body useful for late games / vs Jace if you have equipment out.
How good is it: 6/10?
Would you want it main? Seems better post-board than main, as they are less likely to have Counterbalance, which this is pretty bad against.
Grixis Delver: DRS, Unflipped Delver, Young Pyromancer, Clique. Will hit a few one-ofs like Forked Bolt, but it's definitely a removal spell in this matchup.
How good is it: 8/10
Would you want it main? Yes.
Shardless: DRS, Baleful, Hymn, TS, Ancestral Vision
How good is it: 6/10. Hits random stuff, lets you save your STP for Goyf and not DRS, but doesn't do much against a T1 TS, Goyf, Lili hand.
Would you want it main? Hard to say. It does stuff, but they're going to win the attrition battle.
D+T Mirror: Kills pretty much every regularly played creature but the beaters
How good is it: 9/10
Would you want it main? Yes. Thank god no other T1 deck can actually play this.
Burn: Swiftspear, Chain Lightning, Lava Spike, Rift Bolt. Not insane, but trades for a card.
How good is it: 5/10
Would you want it main? It doesn't work well with a Thalia gameplan against them, especially since we're trading for cards that cost less mana. Is very bad if Eidolon is out. And generally they cast their sorceries early. Still, one-for-one'ing Burn is a generally solid strategy.
Storm: Infernal Tutors, PiF, Dark Petition. Probe/Therapy to protect your bear.
How good is it: 8/10
Would you want it main? Yes.
SnS: Show and Tell obviously. Cantrips.
How good is it: 4/10
Would you want it main? I don't really think so, they're better equipped to protect their Show and Tell in a counterspell war than they are to deal with creatures + Karakas, and sometimes they'll have Sneak anyway.
Omni: Similar targets.
How good is it: 6/10 - better since they're always on the SnT plan
Would you want it main? Like Miracles, I think it becomes better post-board because they'll likely have boarded out some counterspells.
BUG Delver: DRS, Bob, Unflipped Delver. Occasionally a Ponder or a SB card.
How good is it: 8/10
Would you want it main? Yes, always having something in your hand for Bob/DRS would be nice.
Elves: Obviously a superstar here, hits most of their creatures and 100% of their maindeck spells.
How good is it: 10/10
Would you want it main? Yes.
Lands: Gamble, Loam.
How good is it: 2/10
Would you want it main? No. Wont be fast enough for a lot of their Gambles, Loam is not a great counterspell target. Does nothing else.
Fish: Early Cursecatcher or Silvergill.
How good is it: 2/10
Would you want it main? No. Removal for their weakest creatures that is live for one turn, if even.
Rug Delver: Unflipped Delver, Forked Bolt, Rough/Tumble out of the board
How good is it: 2/10
Would you want it main? No, pretty terrible here too.
Infect: All their creatures, but it's turned off by any of their pump.
How good is it: Kinda hard to judge. Obviously not bad to have tons of removal but it can be played around and is bad late or vs Pendlehaven. Maybe 6/10.
Would you want it main? Probably, bad removal is still removal.
Painter: More removal for Painter's Servant is always good, though weirdly uncastable with a Blood Moon in play. (RW taxes needs to remember this.)
How good is it: 5/10
Would you want it main? Bad main. Probably best for mono-W post-board where they'll have few to no Moons.
I would also add that it counters the following from BUG and Jund:
Hymn to Tourach
Thoughtseize
Toxic Deluge
Massacre
Hmm. I am concerned that we have insufficient uncolor mana. What do you fellows think of Kor Haven to prop up the supply?
I'm not a huge fan, unless we increase the number of lands we play. I would think upping the number of Cavern of Souls would be the first step.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I was already thinking about adding 1 Sea Gate Wreckage, so perhaps that's a worthy colorless source.
Warping Wail's dissynergy with thailia concerns me though. Boarding it in against a matchup like Elves where you want to take out thalia seems doable though.
I think I'm going to test a list like this post-release:
23 Land:
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
25 Creatures:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Vryn Wingmare
12 Spells:
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Warping Wail
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Warping Wail
SB: 1 Mirran Crusader
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 1 Fireslinger
Not sure any Wingmare are appropriate as a Thalia/Wingmare game gets more awkward w/ more of these.
Even if you're not playing RW, I think Cavern is a much stronger card than Kor Haven, and you can shift the deck to have more Humans / shared creature types.
Would R/W Taxes be the only version that *couldn't* play Warping Wail, on account of Magus of the Moon? That ain't no pesky non-synergy, Wail is literally uncastable if you have a Magus out. Speaking from the point of view of a DnT color-splasher, noncreature spells probably require 9 or 10 sources of that color to work. First, when I was just running Gaddock Teeg in G/W, 6-7 green sources and 4 Vials felt like enough, but once I moved to adding 2x Sylvan Library, I was basically forced to go to 6-7 fetches and 3-4 Savannahs. The same applies for Warping Wail, except 4 of those sources are sometimes just "throwaways" in Wasteland, but to make it work, I think you'd need our regular 8 colorless + 2 Caverns at a minimum. And they need to *stay* able to produce colorless.
Wail is literally uncastable if you have Magus out, but if you have Magus out against most of the field and it lives you've probably won, so the one dead card in your hand matters about as much as the 6 dead cards in their hand. It seems probably - not definitely, but probably - maindeckable for the same reasons Magus is, which is that the upside is quite high, even if it's not hard to envision various situations you don't want to see that card in your hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwordsToTimeshares
Overall Wail is stronger in matchups where I usually take the Maguses out because they can survive on basics and other mana - Miracles, Reanimator, Storm, Elves, Omni, D+T - or vs 3 color BUG style decks where Kill DRS + Play Magus is the easiest two card wincon, and this serves as one of those two cards.
http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/matterreshaper.jpg
So I have both Goblins and D&T built and I personally am wondering if this card would be good in D&T. I often find that the part that I miss when playing this deck is the lack of card advantage. This card is 3/2 beater that will eventually have to be dealt with or blocked, and when it dies it either draws a card or just gives a free uncounterable permanent.
There's also this
http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/seagatewreckage.jpg
Again I find that drawing cards is the only reason why this deck suffers. If we can manage to get some card advantage the consistency of this deck increases.
I may be wrong as I play Goblins more often, but I personally have found that card advantage is the only reason I don't enjoy playing Death and Taxes that often.
I plan on experimenting! Happy testing!
it says dies. Both StP and Terminus get rid of it without killing it.. if it was "leave play" like Sundering Titan, well, I would try it 4x
I am nervous about including too many cards that require that uncolor mana. If there was such a thing as a dual that could make both those colors it would be different, but I can't think of one of those.
For decks splashing, another option for C is in the Filter Lands.
I like Matter Reshaper as a card, and I think it probably has a place somewhere but maybe only Modern, not Legacy, where you can't win games off a pile of value creatures. And yeah, as Poron mentioned, the fact that STP is the most played removal spell in the format and the most played control decks almost never actually kills your creatures means that death triggers are generally weak in Legacy.
Sea Gate is a more interesting card I think, but it might just be relevant too infrequently and against not enough of the field.
Thought Knot Seer is also a very strong card and a possible sideboard option. It's a 4 drop but a beater with a Thoughtseize attached that can't be bolted, abrupt decayed and gets extra value from Flickerwisp. Combo decks get slower g2/g3 and generally aren't boarding into answers that can touch this guy.
Tested 4 Warping Wail against post-board Elves in a fairly large set of games. It was solid and casting it was not an issue with 11 C sources. It was hard to not show my hand when I was leaving a Port + Land up - Elves isn't really a matchup where you can afford to bluff and when you're not doing something, especially with those it's pretty suspicious - but that card always is going to do something relevant, even if they want to play around it. Still, even though it was quite easy to cast, I'm less sure of it as a maindeck card.
Tested with Sea Gate Wreckage today against Shardless BUG. It was so good I'm running a second. It pushed through many upkeep triggers and it was very easy to use. I won several games due to the fact I was able to draw two extra cards off of it before it was Wasted by my opponent.
I'm using Warping Wail as a 3 of in the sideboard. I'll report back as I play it more.
Wreckage is great also in multiples.
If you respond the first acrivation with a second activation you draw 2 cards (there is no check on resolution only on activation)
Yeah, Poron. But two activations requires 8 mana. I am not sure I have ever had 8 mana with this deck.
You could try pain lands or filter lands, but this deck has lots of colorless mana sources as is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Got wrecked again tonight by Punishing Jund....
My list:
4 Wastelands
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
3 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
4 Moms
4 Mystics
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia
3 Recruiters
3 Revokers
2 Magus
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Fiendhunter
4 Swords
4 Vials
1 SoFaI
1 Batterskul
1 Jitte
s/b:
2 Sudden Demise
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgement
2 Wilt-Leaf Lieges (additions for the last few weeks to try to fight Jund)
1 Sunlance
1 Leonin Relic Warder
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
I don't want to abandon the deck for my local Sunday tourney... but man.. between pfire+grove and bolts and decays.. and even main deck Toxic Deluges...it's so FREAKING tough trying to win. Post-board they have golgari charms (or pyroclasms)....I just feel like no matter what I do I get torn apart... I've considered going up to 4 wilt-leaf lieges... but unless it gets put out via discard it's probably not getting cast :(
My only wins come from a magus with mom and I have them basically on all nonbasics...
Now we have TWO guys running the deck on a regular basis...
Ughhh..