[DTB] Vial Goblins

@Nidd: That's an interesting point, and while technically correct (And as Bureaucrat #1.0 says, it's the best kind of correct), it doesn't factor in two things:

1. This only applies to Ringleaders 2-4, and only if Ringleader 1 hit enough land.
2. You're much more likely to use more fetchlands before the first Ringleader hits play than after.

So as far as the assertion goes that Fetchlands help your Ringleader draws, for the most part yes they do. But I don't think this makes it worth running the red fetches and subjecting yourself to life loss, risk of Stifle, or the chance of running into some completely random card like Ankh of Mishra or Leonin Arbiter.

And Matron Shuffles the deck as well so its not like the lands will always stay underneath.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

@Nidd: That's an interesting point, and while technically correct (And as Bureaucrat #1.0 says, it's the best kind of correct), it doesn't factor in two things:

1. This only applies to Ringleaders 2-4, and only if Ringleader 1 hit enough land.
2. You're much more likely to use more fetchlands before the first Ringleader hits play than after.

So as far as the assertion goes that Fetchlands help your Ringleader draws, for the most part yes they do. But I don't think this makes it worth running the red fetches and subjecting yourself to life loss, risk of Stifle, or the chance of running into some completely random card like Ankh of Mishra or Leonin Arbiter.

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I was assuming that everyone is aware of the dangers the usage of Fetches brings with it, but good that you outlined them. We can agree that running Fetches in Mono Red versions isn't worth it, can't we?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nelis

And Matron Shuffles the deck as well so its not like the lands will always stay underneath.

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Well, If you play 4 Matrons and 7 Fetches, that's 11 shuffle effects VS 4 from Matrons alone.
Also, the first Matron pretty much always gets me a Ringleader, so only 3 of them shuffle lands back into the deck.

Uh, what about this monored list?

Lands [22]

4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
14x Mountain

Core [26]

4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Lackey
4x AEther Vial
4x Goblin Ringleader
2x Siege-Gang Commander

Removal [5]

3x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Tarfire
1x Stingscourger

Flex Slots [7]

3x Goblin Chieftain
3x Mogg War Marshal
1x TukTuk Scrapper

Sideboard [15]

3x Pyrokinesis
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Relic of Progenitus
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x TukTuk Scrapper
1x Lightning Crafter

Perhaps the deck needs less goblins and more Lightning Bolts...

Tarfire is fetchable and has been prettty useful.

Three things:

(1) I don't like the MD Scrapper. I guess it's not that important to have MD artifact removal. Unlike TSh and Tnkerer, Scrapper costs 4 mana which is a lot.

(2) I find 3 Chieftain too much (unless you're expecting a lot of mirror matches in your meta). I'd cut one or two

(3) IMO Goblins shouldn't run less than 6 removal.

For monored lists, TukTuk Scrapper is really the best option... TSH means green splash and Goblin Tinkerer is usually removed before it can do his job... TukTuk has a ETB effect, that's why it's superior in my point of view... And yes, I like an artifact removal MD because many decks runs Jitte (which gives me a really hard time). About the chieftains, yeah, their counting is too high, i'll run only 2 of them.

Now, back for the R/B List, I've tried something like this:

Lands [22]

4x Wasteland
4x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
5x Mountain
1x Swamp
3x Rishadan Port
1x Ancient Tomb (this card might be random, but it's always good to have it in opening hand)

Core [26]

4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x AEther Vial
2x Siege-Gang Commander

Removal [6]

3x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Warren Weirding
1x Tarfire
1x Stingscourger

Flexible Slots [7]

2x Mogg War Marshal
1x Boggart Mob (this is another random card, but it's a 5/5 body and keeps your goblin count high)
1x Earwig Squad
1x Wort, Boggart Auntie
1x TukTuk Scrapper
1x Goblin Chieftain

MD has 61 cards :o

Sideboard [15]

3x Perish
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Pyrokinesis
1x Earwig Squad
1x TukTuk Scrapper
1x Goblin Sharpshooter

Hey guys,

right now I'm busy with some testing for the Dutch Legacy Open.
According to several Dutch Legacy players the meta should look like this:

Tier 1.0: Goblins
Tier 1.1: Merfolk, TES and probably Vengevival
Tier 2.0: Bant, Zoo, Threshold, Rock

Of course those decks aren't the only one to show up, but they seems to be most likely to meet, which means that I have to face a for me totally new task: praticing the mirror match. In Germany there are very few players that play Goblins regularly, so I'm not quite skilled in mirrormatching. That's why I could use some adivce. Here goes my list:

//Lands [22]
15 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

//Core [26]
Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, 2 SGC

//Flex [12]
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Stngscourger
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Chieftain

//Sideboard [15]
4 Chalice otV
4 Leyline otV
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Here a some questions

(1) How would you side against Goblins with this list?

(2) How would you side against Rock with this list?

(3) Would you add splashes? Which one? Why?

(4) Should I run Rishadan Port or not?


It's not that I'm completely desperate and helpless (cause those questions are somehow what one would expect from someone who has just started to play this deck). It's more that I want to hear your oppinions on those topics without biasing them by telling you mine.

Thank you!

Doesn't mono red gobbos beat splashed versions in the mirror?

There's always the random Goblin King.

Or splash black and play Wort.

interesting tier analysis. I do not expect goblins to be the deck to be in biggest numbers at all.

I've just built this deck and find it incredibly mana-hungry. I normally play combo and to me the idea of surviving long enough to get a 4CC draw engine going, with only Lackey and (kind of Vial) for accel and just Waste and Port for disruption, seems crazy. Any builds that have tried Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal or Ancient Tomb with any success out there?

Hello again!

Done some updates to my deck, and i could use some feedback. I have added the MWM, Sharpshooter and prospector "combo", so my deck is a more defensive style goblin deck.

I have some questions that kill me ! =O Sting in main, worth it? And my SB is mad, i cant decide how i want it. Needle, is it worth to even have in there? And tinkerer or scrapper? And ive been thinking about bloodmoon+king

Help! =O

CREATURES (34)
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

ARTIFACTS (4)
4 Aether Vial

LANDS (22)
14 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland


SIDEBOARD
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pithing Needle
2 Goblin Tinkerer

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doomsday

I've just built this deck and find it incredibly mana-hungry. I normally play combo and to me the idea of surviving long enough to get a 4CC draw engine going, with only Lackey and (kind of Vial) for accel and just Waste and Port for disruption, seems crazy. Any builds that have tried Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal or Ancient Tomb with any success out there?

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Then you probably don't run Lackey and AEther Vial in your list, cause those cards ensure that you virtually never have to pay 4 mana for any spell.

Plus, it's not that you have to survive until then. It's more that your oppnents should try to survive the first 3 turns

Hello fellow Goblin players.

I just came home from 2 Legacy Tournaments here in Sweden and have some rage to share. I've slept 4 hours on 2 days, so please, don't complain on grammar.

The first tournament i went 4-2, i lost to 2 G/W Survival.
Won against: The Rock/Junk, The Rock/Junk, Mirror, Zoo

I prepared my deck for ALOT of Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins. I've never lost a mirror game and i have a record of 70% Win against Zoo or more with my current decklist.
So i could say, i was very prepared for Merfolk, Zoo and Goblins.
But Survival is another story, i Extirpate thiers Vengevine, then they get like 3 Mother of runes, 1 Burrenton and Umezawa's Jitte some Tarms etc, WTF am i supposed to do against that...

So the 2nd Tournament went 2-3
Started out strong with 2-0 after winning against a random aggro deck and Merfolk, then i lost vs 2 G/W Vengevine once again (One guy was the same guy as i lost to the day before), and a belcher.

My friend who also played Goblins, faced no Venges and only 1 combo and made easy top 8, FML.

So my list was:
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Warren Wierding
4 Aether Vial

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mountain

SB:
4 Extirpate
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip

I am very happy with the MD and SB, i have no troubles so far against aggro/controll/tempo, only the god damn G/W Decks. Maybe i was unlucky getting paired against that or maybe i played wrong, can't really remember.

I really missed TSH MD, that would have saved me many times.

Next tournament i think im going to play Mono Red list, the draws with Ringleaders will be much more solid. Also, mono red is IMO the best Goblin build Pre SB.
So if im going to play Mono Red im probably going to play this SB; and probably the same MD as the list above (-1 Wierding, +1 Stingscourger).
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Pithing Needle



So, how do you beat G/W Venge/Death n Taxes? It feels like an endless uphill each time...
4 Mindbreak Trap

Mindbreak trap would be hot tech, if they had to madness off more than 2 creatures to get all the Vengevines they dumped into the yard.

It won't exile the Vengevines either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Then you probably don't run Lackey and AEther Vial in your list, cause those cards ensure that you virtually never have to pay 4 mana for any spell.

Plus, it's not that you have to survive until then. It's more that your oppnents should try to survive the first 3 turns

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Well I obviously run both. Aether Vial does nothing to let you start the draw engine any sooner, it just lets you play more threats in the meantime. Lackey is the only true accel. And unless I'm missing something, kill seems to be turn 4 even with god hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by antonbystedt

But Survival is another story, i Extirpate thiers Vengevine, then they get like 3 Mother of runes, 1 Burrenton and Umezawa's Jitte some Tarms etc, WTF am i supposed to do against that...

[...]

So, how do you beat G/W Venge/Death n Taxes? It feels like an endless uphill each time...

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I really don't want to anger you, but I have to say that the G/W version of Vengevival is a good MU for us.
What you need to realize (I guess) is this: Graveyard hate wont stop them, cause the GW-list is (unlike U/G) totally aggro. They don't have that much discard outlets (they miss Aquamoeba, Mongrell) and they don't run 4 Basking Rootwalla. G/W lists don't have Wonder as well. Therefore:
If you are up against G/W Vengevival you are up against a inferior aggro-deck. Just try to stall them with your Mogg-War Marshal and probably some SGCs. Aim for their Green non-basics, and burn down their Mother of Runes and Hierarchs.
I find Pyrokinesis much more usefull against them than Extirpate.

Well...this is only true for G/W (against which I was able to test a lot), not for U/G.

Death n Taxes is a tough MU if they are packing G. I guess G splash for Nature's Claim and TSH should help here (cause without their Vial and nasty Equipments DnT is just a slow aggro deck)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doomsday

Well I obviously run both. Aether Vial does nothing to let you start the draw engine any sooner, it just lets you play more threats in the meantime. Lackey is the only true accel. And unless I'm missing something, kill seems to be turn 4 even with god hand.

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Turn 1: Mountain, Lackey
Turn 2: Attack, pitch Warchief. Mountain, Piledriver, Piledriver
Turn 3: Any Goblin. Attack for 9+9+2+1+X

Turn 1: Mountain, Lackey
Turn 2: Attack, pitch Siege-Gang Commander. Mountain, Piledriver
Turn 3: Attack for 11+2+1+1+1+1. Sac token for burn (2).

There are more such scenarios....

Basically, you have to ways to lead with Vengevine:

Graveyard Hate (probably the less effective)
- Relic of Progenitus
- Leyline of the Void
- Tormod's Crypt
- Nihil Spellbomb
- Planar Void
- Faerie Macabre

I find relic of progenitus the best choice, since some lists run Tarmogoyfs and Jitte's as secondary win-cons.

Enchantment Hate (hitting SotF, er)

- Nature's Claim
- Krosan Grip
- Pithing Needle (this is easily removed, but very annoying)
- All those green enchantment hate...

Every card here has their own advantage:

KGrip = does the job without complaint and responses, but a little slow.
Nature's Claim = Fast as hell, but gives 4 life.
Pithing Needle = Stops SotF, but it's easily removed.

My personal choices are: Relic and Needle.

Doomsday, goblins isn't a stupidly fast aggro deck. I've seem some Pauper format decks (only commons) that can get a turn 3 kill with creatures. Goblins happen to be a kind of aggro-control with a little speed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Turn 1: Mountain, Lackey
Turn 2: Attack, pitch Warchief. Mountain, Piledriver, Piledriver
Turn 3: Any Goblin. Attack for 9+9+2+1+X

Turn 1: Mountain, Lackey
Turn 2: Attack, pitch Siege-Gang Commander. Mountain, Piledriver
Turn 3: Attack for 11+2+1+1+1+1. Sac token for burn (2).

There are more such scenarios....

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Alright, so it's turn 3 with the total god-hands and facing someone with zero removal and zero blockers. The draw engine doesn't ever come online in these examples, because it's so slow with Lackey as the only accel. Has anyone tried petals, moxen or tombs to make the deck any faster?

I've been playing and testing Goblins for the past couple of months, so just thought I'd throw up two reports and some thoughts in general.

***
October Event (6th/20)

Mono-Red Goblins:
4 @ Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Piledriver, Gempalm Incinerator, Goblin Matron, Goblin Warchief, Goblin Ringleader
3 @ Lightning Bolt, Mogg War Marshal
2 @ Siege-Gang Commander
1 @ Stingscourger, Goblin Chieftain

14 Mountain
4 @ Rishadan Port, Wasteland

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
3 @ Faerie Macabre, Pithing Needle
2 @ Boartusk Liege, Goblin Chieftain
1 Vexing Shusher

R1 Zoo (2-0)
G1: Lost the roll, Lightning Bolt got Lackey through into Siege-Gang. Kept the pressure up with tokens and just overran him.
->SB (+4 Pyro, -1 Chieftain, -1 Sting, -1 Piledriver, -1 Gempalm)
G2: Get another nuts draw, took out some guys with Pyrokinesis and streamrolled. MWM & Siege-Gang were my MVP's in these games.

R2 Bant/Jace Control (2-0)
G1: First 4 turns I had 3 Wastelands on his duals, then had 2 Ports going. Killed him before he could recover.
->SB (+1 Vexing Shusher, -1 Gempalm)
G2: Get a fast start and start laying down creatures. He lays a couple of Goyfs and VClique's me. My hand is: Ringleader, Ringleader, Siege, Siege, Wasteland. He stares in disbelief and concedes shortly after.

R3 43-Land.dec (2-0)
G1: Great tight game. I have a good hand but he gets an early Tabernacle. I attack with 3 guys, 2 guys, 1 guy, while he's sitting on 3 life. I'm desperate to find a Bolt or even a Wasteland. I cycle 4 Gempalms and still don't find a kill. Meanwhile he is getting Loam online so my time is running out. Eventually I move Vial up to 5. I'm pretty sure he has a CropRot in hand so I have to try to play around it. I Vial in Siege-Gang, trigger 2 dmg (resolves), trigger again, he responds with Crop Rot, trigger a third time, GG.
->SB (+3 Pithing Needle, -1 Stingscourger, -2 MWM)
G2: Not much time left after an epic G1. Unfortunately he mulls (drawing 7 incorrectly, Judge makes him go down to 5, which he mulls again into 4). I had a Lackey->Siege-Gang and it was over.

R4, R5 - ID

Quarter-Finals 'Lord of Extinction.dec' (0-2)

G1: I'm feeling pretty good because I saw this deck (Jace/Deed control) during my Byes and thought I'd be too fast. I get draw 5 lands in a row before Jace FateSeals me for a few turns. I concede to save time in the round.
G2: Have a decent hand, however I never see a 3rd land all game and eventually die to a Lord of Extinction.

Finish 6/20.

Thoughts: Despite my singing the praises of Stingscourger in the past, I didn't use it all day and was often SB-out fodder. There were 3 Lands.dec's in a field of 20 which was very surprising, so I'd consider Blood Moon in the future.

***
November Event (3rd/8)

Why RG?
After playing MonoR last month, I found the only thing that was really screwing me over in testing was Jitte. So I tested RG, found I didn't lose much % anywhere, while gaining an out to Jitte, as well as access to KGrip in the board. Also after my previous disappointment with Stingscourger, I cut it completely and haven't missed it. My meta has basically no Iona or Emrakul; Progenitus much more so. 4 Bolts were testing great so I felt fine without it. Here we go!

RG Goblins:
4 @ Lightning Bolt, Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Matron, Goblin Warchief, Goblin Ringleader
3 @ Mogg War Marshal, Gempalm Incinerator
2 @ Siege-Gang Commander
1 @ Tin-Street Hooligan, Goblin Chieftain

4 @ Wasteland, Wooded Foothills
3 @ Taiga, Rishadan Port
7 Mountain
1 Forest

SB:
3 @ Pyrokinesis, Pithing Needle, Boartusk Liege, Relic of Progenitus, Krosan Grip

R1 MonoU Merfolk (2-0)
G1: He wins the roll, elects to play. He mulls to 6, I keep 7. Lackey trades with Cursecatcher, we both have Vials but he is swinging with a Mutavault. Bolt gets Spell Pierced and I go down to 5 life before I stabilize with blockers. I get tonnes of Goblins and swing in with a huge army. 1-0.
->SB (+3 Pyrokinesis, -3 MWM)
G2: He plays with 7 while I mull to 6. Much more one sided this time. He has two Coralhelm's and I'm at 13 when I Bolt one (the other is tapped), hit for 17 leaving him on 2, and its over. One of the reasons I switched from Merfolk to Goblins was Piledriver and it proved its worth here.

R2 - GWB Survival (0-2)
G1: I knew I'd be facing Survival today, knew the matchup was pretty bad but hoped to mise. He plays, Cabal Therapy on Lackey (misses, I have Vial). Turn 2 Survival and he goes off shortly after. I did stabilize late, although when he NO->Prog still with 3 Vengvine on the table its over.
->SB (+3 Pyrokinesis, +3 Needle, -1 Ringleader, -2 Piledriver, -1 Matron, -1 MWM, -1 Vial)
G2: I sided like the above because in testing Graveyard hate (like Macabre) was never good enough, and my best chance was to keep them off Green mana early on, taking out their dudes and racing. Things like Ringleader and Vial were considered expendable since if the game went long I just lose. Despite him Venging like mad, I stabilize for a little while and nearly pull off a win. He is on 8, I'm on 5, both boards clogged. I draw SCG (he is tapped out of mana), I vial it in, only have 7 mana... if I had 8 I could have shot him for lethal. He is going to alpha strike next turn and I could still block all, shoot and put him on 1, possibly drawing another SCG or burn next turn ftw. Unfortunately he draws Shriekmaw, hitting SGC before attacks, which lets his alpha strike get there.

R3 - RW Sligh/Landfall
G1 & G2: Don't recall too many details except winning pretty quickly. He won a couple of casual games afterwards so perhaps a little lucky here.

Thoughts: The basic Forest was 'ok' in testing, but gave me the shits on the day. Not match-swingingly so, but I'd drop it for the 4th Taiga in future. Rest of the deck was fine and I probably wouldn't change anything. *Potentially* I'd find something to cut to go up to 23 land, but I love the list as is.

Conclusion: Love the deck, but I'm probably going to explore other options while Survival is the DTB, just because I can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Hey guys,

right now I'm busy with some testing for the Dutch Legacy Open.
According to several Dutch Legacy players the meta should look like this:

Tier 1.0: Goblins
Tier 1.1: Merfolk, TES and probably Vengevival
Tier 2.0: Bant, Zoo, Threshold, Rock

Of course those decks aren't the only one to show up, but they seems to be most likely to meet, which means that I have to face a for me totally new task: praticing the mirror match. In Germany there are very few players that play Goblins regularly, so I'm not quite skilled in mirrormatching. That's why I could use some adivce. Here goes my list:

//Lands [22]
15 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

//Core [26]
Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, 2 SGC

//Flex [12]
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Stngscourger
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Chieftain

//Sideboard [15]
4 Chalice otV
4 Leyline otV
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Pyromancer
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Here a some questions

(1) How would you side against Goblins with this list?

(2) How would you side against Rock with this list?

(3) Would you add splashes? Which one? Why?

(4) Should I run Rishadan Port or not?


It's not that I'm completely desperate and helpless (cause those questions are somehow what one would expect from someone who has just started to play this deck). It's more that I want to hear your oppinions on those topics without biasing them by telling you mine.

Thank you!

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The Goblin mirror is incredibly dynamic. You can start off strong but get wrecked by a Pyrokinesis and lose just as quickly. It is very skill intensive and super fun. Sharpshooter is important and having enough removal for first turn lackey. Sometimes Pyromancer was good sometimes it was meh. I'd probably replace it with Goblin Sharpshooter. You really need to play the mirror to get a feel for it.

When you say Rock you mean the BGW lists that have been placing well? I think all of them play plague so boarding in grip or claim is good, they also hit deed if they run it as well. Pop or moon might be good here as well, but I dont see it being a very difficult match, your LD is really good here. Killing confidant should be easy enough and then you can grind them out pretty easily as they have no other source of card advantage.

Black for Extirpate against Vengevival and Perish for Green decks.

Port should probably be run in mono red if you metagame is vulnerable to it, you know slower multicolor decks or decks that have unstable mana bases.

Hope that helps!