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No, you don't understand. Fetchlands enable you to play many different strategies with less variance and more consistency. Brainstorm doesn't do that, all you can play with brainstorm is one specific archetype: BlueQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
There's the 'gentleman's agreement' philosophy cited when Mystical tutor got banned. Which is essentially that a significant percentage of the player base isn't interested in just derping Show and Tell and winning. If everyone's lives depended on it you'd see more Show and Tell because it's pretty dumb, and assembling 2-card combos is made really easy because of Brainstorm. Brainstorm is the single best cantrip by a fucking Pennsylvania mile at assembling 2 card combo (2CC being defined as not wanting multiples of either half, or one half).Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Ban Brainstorm and Show and Tell and other 2CC takes a bigger hit than critical mass combo. Add to that the fact that Duress will have text. There's no need to ban shit like Show and Tell if you get rid of Brainstorm, the deck will lose consistancy over 8+ rounds, be far more disruptable by skill intensive cards like Cabal Therapy.
My bad here's my source: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...-A-Friend.html I believe Jim Davis to know all there is about Gobos. TNN is the literally the lamest card since like Teferi's response.
Bullshit on two levels. There is no "archetype: blue" and you suggest banning a shitload of cards like Brainstorm, TC, DDT and possibly others just to keep perfect 3-colored manabase abdominations for Jund and Junk around. You are fighting symptoms not the causeQuote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Not really. Brainstorm outpaced it by 25%. It also enabled your opener to not get clogged with too many cruises.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Sorry, I was actually agreeing with you, sarcastically. Next time i will do a </sarcasm> at the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I apologize, since force of will isn't a cantrip, for misspeaking, and for slightly overstating the number as it's closer to 15 than 20. However it is intentionally obtuse to say that just because there isn't a xerox of 20 exact cards that there isn't a clear predilection in the format toward a particular kind of build:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Miracles: 4 BS, Ponder, Force, 2 Dig. 4 Top as well, and as a player of non-Miracles control, I can tell you that if it wasn't for the existence of the miracle mechanic, at least 3 of those would be some other sort of one-mana blue cantrip. As good a card as Top is with fetches (more on that later), it is simply not as good as just jamming more cantrips for pure selection.
Storm: 4 BS, Ponder, Probe, 2 Preordain, 1 Top.
Grixis delver: 4 BS, Ponder, Force, Probe, 2 Dig
4c delver: 4 Brainstorm, Force, Ponder, 3 Probe
Omni: what I listed above
Of course the RUG decks in the top 16 both played extra removal/counters over extra cantrips, but there have definitely been versions of that deck adding 3-4 probe to 4-ofs BS, Ponder, Force.
Once you add lands, it's anywhere from 30-40 cards decided before you start adding anything else.
And though fetchlands are clearly powerful in their interaction with these cards, it should be noted that between the two DGA decks in the last top 8, there's only one solitary SDT in one of the lists. Yet they played 7 and 8 fetches respectively, about the same as any blue deck, because the fixing is important even if you're not trying to get A+ card selection. (Sure, they play DRS, but I don't think it's fair to compare adding one mana to your mana pool to shuffling away two dead cards. Even then it's 9 out of 150 cards that interact with fetches, when there are usually way more than that in the 75 of a blue deck.)
Now, if Wizards wanted to take the fetches out of legacy and simultaneously kneecap cantrips and piles of goodstuff, I'm all for it because I think it would be interesting and incredibly fun. But again, it's just obtuse to draw an equivalence between how powerful fetchlands are in general and how powerful they are with cantrips. Cantrips + fetches is a draw engine that outmuscles every other one that's possible in the format, and it's getting even more ubiquitous as Ponder cracks the 60% played barrier.
It doesn't, but his comment about Miracles being something we can adapt to is reasonable. Part of the problem is definitely the elitist attitude that a lot of people have toward Chalice, Post, and other fringe decks likely reduces the number of people, especially players looking to make a mark, picking them up. Cameron Wisnewski has top 16ed two large Legacy events in the past ninety days with a build of Tezzerator that I'm pretty sure only he plays, not that it would surprise me if he were the only person playing any build of the deck between both events. Similarly, how many times have Jeremiah Rudolph and John Kassari pilot 12Post to a strong finish? How many times in a row does MUD need to top 16 an SCG event before it hits a critical mass of players to break through into the top 8? It's not like these decks are Enchantress where your combo matchups really are so bad that you can't dodge any of it reliably enough to top 8 - two of them run Force, one of those has little problem running additional countermagic out of the board, and the third complements Chalice with 4 Sphere of Juggernauts and some number of Trinispheres.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
Thanks for looking at my actual point instead of my irrational hatred towards a particular card. I like the idea of elitism playing a role in determining what decks people play. I think it creates a vicious cycle, if the a deck is perceived as the "best deck" due to some results then it would be played in greater numbers which would in turn put up even better results. If that happens enough times I think the format would become unhealthy and stagnation would occur.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Patrick Sullivan said something similar. Lots of the present problems are created due to cantrips + fetchland interaction. If Wizard removes fetchland, lots of problems would be solved.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
However, that's not what Wizard envisions Legacy should be. Wizard knows large number of people enjoy fetchland and brainstorm, at least larger than number of elves/jund/mud/dnt/lands players combined.
If we look at the delta ever since GP Kyoto, really the only change in the recent months should be the number of copies of Dig in the Top 8. The number of Brainstorm most likely remain about the same.
BUG Control
Miracle Control
OmniTell
Thopters
Ad Nauseam Tendrils
OmniTell
U/W Control
Threshold UGr
This is the top 8 at the Ovino Spring, 202 players.
Only one Miracle.
Brainstorm: 32/32 copies, 8 decks, 100% and 100%
Ponder___: 22/32 copies, 7 decks, 69% and 88%
FoW_____: 28/32 copies, 7 decks, 88% and 88%
Preordain_: 13/32copies, 4 decks, 47% and 38%
DTT______: 14/32copies, 4 decks, 44%, 50%
10 red blasts (all SB at least)
This guy (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post880663) was matched against Miracles 7 (seven) times (the 8th match has been confirmed to also be a Miracle match)....A friend was there and he reported that everybody and his mother was playing Miracles....Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar
I'd wage a bet, and argue that top8 is more diverse than most standard and modern tournaments. Just because some colors overlap, doesn't mean that the strategy does.
*Sure, when playing in miracles-land, you play versus a lot of miracles. When it isn't unreasonably representative in the top8, there's hardly any problem with it.
Somehow I doubt that. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
But anyway, I've been away from this thread for a few months. Last time I posed a solution for the Cruise era, and all I got in response was "Ban Brainstorm! I hate Brainstorm!" and people responding to that. Am I correct in assuming this thread is still only posts saying "Ban Brainstorm!" or "No Brainstorm is awesome!"?
PS. No, I am not going to insult my own intelligence by actually having a look. I tried that once. It did not go well.
Well, what did you expect? TC decks were replaced by decks that run DTT and the meta is just as blue and Brainstorm-heavy as before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
This is not related to TC and DTT. Besides: A blue dominance isn't per se a bad thing. If it was dominance from a single strategy, that'd be worse. That's not the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Pretty much. This thread is the Brainstorm-hater/Color-equilibristic self-help group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
That looks like an awesome Top 8!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar
The "white shell" is different because if you want quality removal and threats (even ones that provide card advantage), you can get it with a comparable quality. White, red and black(green) all have strong removal available. Quality threats abound. You're not forced to play a specific color to be able to get access to those effects - you don't have one choice, you have three or four. The color choices affect the style a bit, sure, but the raw power is comparable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
The raw power of the cantrip cartel, especially when supported with Dig, completely eclipses the card selection tools of other colors in quality. Elves is the only thing that comes close, and it's noticeably slower at getting things going.
Other key areas:
Removal: W, B, R
Removing noncreature permanents: G, W, R
Combo hate: U, B, W
Graveyard hate: W, G, B, colorless
There are choices there. If you want a card selection engine, though, it's blue or go home. The others are completely outclassed in comparison, barring a couple narrow ones.
The universality makes it worse, because the play experience of decks starts to feel similar because the engine is the same in all of them.
If you compare this to, say, Green (supposing) engines with Elves, Nic Fit and Loam decks all operating differently. The only different core blue deck that springs to mind is UB Tezzeret, which feels appreciably different from most other blue decks.
It's not only the dominance of one color, though that's a large part of it. It's the dominance of a single engine that fuels everything and makes things feel stale. I don't want to completely kill it, but taking it down some notches to the same ballpark other colors inhabit would be good for the format.
But that is that blue is all about! It's the color of Library- & handmanipulation since Alpha and complaining that it's blue that has the best and most options among all colors is totally off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
I can totally get behind if people spit hate for WotC printing Delver, SCM and TNN in that color, but library Manipulation? What's next? A color-based crusade because black has no tools (and I mean "no" tools literally instead of subpar ones) to catch up with white and greens enchantment/Artifact removal?
Edit:
For Gods sake, storm players have to Splash green for the effect of enchantment/Artifact removal. It's no way different than splashing blue if you want access to Library manipulation, but I guess I have to read some smartass posts soon talking about bullshit like "if you splash blue, you want to run FoW also and then you have to run 20 blue cards to support that!"
Totally agree here (and I think this one of the most correct posts regards this topic).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Greetings,
Kathal
That doesn't mean that Brainstorm isn't overpowered. How do you not see that? You seem like a smart person. This argument could just as easily apply to Treasure Cruise. I don't think anyone disagrees that blue should be best at library manipulation, just not that it should be so much better as to constrain the format to only cards that work if your plan is to Brainstorm & Ponder all day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
And actually, blue was the color of card advantage in Alpha (Ancestral Recall, Braingeyser) while card selection was given to green (Natural Selection). The next card selection cards printed were Visions and Sylvan Library in Legends, neither of which are blue.
It takes until Ice Age with Brainstorm, Diabolic Vision, Elemental Augury, Krovikan Sorcerer, Mesmeric Trance, Portent before you get blue "card selection." (And of course Brainstorm pre-fetches and Portent as a slowtrip were not quite as good as they are/Ponder is now.) After that things get nutty.
As much as a bummer as it is that these cards are all blue, in the end it doesn't really matter. The ability of cantrips to fix mana and sculpt the perfect hand means that even if Delver and SCM were red and TNN was white they would still be at their best in decks that already pretty much exist (with the corner case of those decks having the slightest percentage hit in matchups where Force of Will is relevant as the blue count would be that much smaller. But even then we're talking about 4-6 blue cards at most being taken out of decks that have 20-30 blue cards in them already.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
In fact, for all the "strategic diversity" people, you could make the point that if Delver was red, we wouldn't even have a BUG tempo deck.
Well, that's not true. You don't have to splash green, as white and red have artifact removal and white has enchantment removal. You choose to splash green because it is the best at it. It's the same reason you play cantrips over Mirri's Guile, Natural Selection, Sylvan Library, et al.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
The difference is that the distance between how good green is at enchantment/artifact removal and the other colors is not even close to how good blue is at card selection. Miracles doesn't splash green for that effect, for example, it just plays Wear/Tear because it's good enough. At the same time, the miracles deck isn't setting up its deck with the green enchantments either.
I don't understand how 'color pie' is in any way a relevant topic for B/R considerations. There are plenty of out-of-color cards that we never talk about: Land Equilibrium,High Tide,Mind Bomb,Delver of Secrets and Recall readily come to mind. Moreover, WotC's design philosophy seems to be 'blue gets everything', so they're not going to ban blue cards for out of color capability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
The complaint is about power level, and the apparent limit of viable options in legacy:
1. Play mono-color.
2. Play blue.
"lolololol"Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
What's wrong with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
Brainstorm + Ponder + Fetchlands IS stupid good in terms of card selection especially compared to decks which have, more or less, play the game based in random topdecks and sure these cards mark the cream of the crop for minimizing the randomness which is/was the games core, but is inevitable for tournament players to profit from. There is no-one arguing that fact, but it appears to be a matter of perception if that's an actual Problem by itselfQuote:
Originally Posted by maharis
I like to pick up the Vintage example from time to time and point to the mana-artifacts as the fundamental and shared core for the format to operate across various archetypes and strategies. No one complains that you "have to play SoLoCryMoxen" in Order to be compeditive. Players accepted these cards as the Fundament of the format to have the best shot at winning (Dredge aside). How is that any different from BS+Ponder+Fetches in these regards other than the color itself? As long as Moxen power Workshop decks, Storm and Mana Drain decks there is no Problem in Vintage and I don't see one for Legacy if Brainstorm is played in Combo, Conteol and Aggro/Tempo at the same time. If the core however extends and indeed streamlines viable building to a single deck or archetype, (We have seen this with Gush+Brainstorm+Ponder+MerchantScroll or with Ponder+Brainstorm+Probe+TreasureCruise), Action is needed and is usually taken.
The Problem is that people give too much shit about colors and not enough about the effects they want in their decks
That's why I called it Handmanipulation and dodged any statements of gauging like "advantage" or "quality" ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
The difference is that the Moxen in vintage are free and therefore any deck can feasible access these pieces. Hell you can run off color moxen if all you need is a mana boost. In Legacy though, playing brainstorm isn't simply, slot it into your deck. It is now you play BS, 6-10 fetches, and since you're there you probably play at least ponder. And since you're there theres generally enough reason to go into enough blue for force
We're getting all warped around in the discussion here. B&R is about power level, format warping and ubiquity. Brainstorm meets all 3 criteria. It's the most powerful card in Legacy, a fact that only a few deny. The format now revolves around the cantrip cartel that Brainstorm sits at the root of, again only a few deny this. Brainstorm itself is in 75%+ of top 8's overall.
This is a simple decision for WotC to make. That they are having this much difficulty making the decision suggests strongly that they need to change the decision makers.
So it would be better if brainstorm was colorless and/or free?Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
32/32 brainstorm?Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Every time you say "cantrip cartel", I giggle. You should write propaganda for a living.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
I believe the root of our disagreement is about the purpose of the Ban list: It is about "Will banning this card make the format better?", which is a very subjective question. Power Level and "format warping" are subjective measures, while ubiquity is objective, but these are not the only considerations for a card's banning.
Power Level: There will always be a most-powerful card.
"Format Warping": Depends on your definitions. As Lemnear said, some people judge formats by colors, some judge by strategies.
Ubiquity: Yes, we can measure the %/Max of a card's play, so this is a more-good measure.
There are also things like:
Average Player Opinion: In general do players prefer to have the card in the format or not?
Immediate Impact: Is the card a must-answer? i.e. does it win the game when you play it, or are there opportunities for opponents to fight it long-term?
Multiple subjective criteria don't make for easy, or universally agreed decisions.
So where does Brainstorm fit?
Power Level: Probably the most powerful card in Legacy.
Format Warping: WotC seems to judge by strategies more than by colors, so No.
Ubiquity: Yes, it is fairly ubiquitous.
Average Player Opinion: Good luck finding a representative sample.
Immediate Impact: Brainstorm does not win the game (as opposed to, say, Survival, Hermit Druid, Tinker, or Yawgmoth's Will).
Anyways, thats my 2¢.
That completely ignores that Moxen are still restricted, because they don't ban cards in Vintage for power reasons. If they banned cards instead of restricting them, Moxen would be a goner. Also, if you want to mention Vintage, let's not forget that Brainstorm and Ponder are restricted there for power reasons since 2008. Both scale immensely with the power level of the format where they dig - which has increased alot in the meantime. The percentage of Brainstorm in Legacy jumped with each stupid printing of blue-related cards a few percentages each time, and continues to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Survival was also a fun card before they reached a threshold of printing too much stupid shit to keep it around any longer. That's what can happen to cards that scale with power level.
Power level is a concern. Black also has tutors since Alpha, but there's a reason why Infernal Tutor is in the format while Demonic Tutor is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Storm doesn't have to splash green for removal. Blue has bounce to deal with all kinds of permanents. Players just choose to because AD being an uncounterable, permanent solution is more convenient, especially against Counterbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Would your assessment of Mental Misstep while it was legal have been any different by those criteria?Quote:
Originally Posted by iGrok
ThisQuote:
Originally Posted by rufus
So where does Mental Misstep fit?Quote:
Originally Posted by iGrok
Power Level: Probably the second most powerful card in Legacy, after Brainstorm
Format Warping: The DTB section still shows various decks with different strategies being viable in the month were it was banned:
http://i.imgur.com/DsAbQ.jpg
Having 4 top decks is nothing out of the ordinary. We also had months with only 4 top decks in the DTB section.
Ubiquity: Yes, it was fairly ubiquitous - same amount as Brainstorm is now
Average Player Opinion: How is that even a criteria you can measure? :really:
Immediate Impact: Mental Misstep does not win the game, either
The acceptation ain't that 100% as you tend to make it, in fact some ppl argue against thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Problem is that some ppl give too much shit about thinking how they're reading shit about colours while there's clearly an argument about power level of BS...Quote:
Problem is that people give too much shit about colors and not enough about the effects they want in their decks
EDIT:
counter card and activate on spell effectsQuote:
Originally Posted by Barook
fix and removing stacks
Player Opinion is definitely the hardest one to measure. But, I don't think that you can say that there are more people who enjoy Mental Misstep in the format than people who enjoy Brainstorm in the format.
Still, how does player opinion matter? Wizards doesn't give two shits about that. People love Survival. Is it unbanned? Nope.Quote:
Originally Posted by iGrok
Erik Lauer sits on his ass for years doing nothing (until the recent TC ban) and people applaud how well he manages the format. :rolleyes: The same guy who set up clear conditions for a card ban (Mental Misstep) and doesn't follow through when exactly the same reasons apply (Brainstorm) because he doesn't give a fuck. Just as he's the same guy who assrapes Modern for years now with stupid bans despite being the head developer of Magic, thus being capable of printing card to fix the goddamn format for good.
Edit: How much he cares about Legacy is also shown in said ban announcement:
- Modern: Wall of text explaining the reasoning behind the bans
- Legacy: 2.5 lines which can be summed up as "Too much UR Delver. Fuck that."
Has there been any statement of him regarding Legacy since the MM ban and the TC ban?
Player opinion does matter, but its not the only thing that matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Brainstorm is proactive, while Misstep is reactive. Does this impact the decision? Probably. Is it the most important factor? No. But I guess Proactive vs Reactive is another factor in banning or not.
Survival is a must-answer card, while Brainstorm isn't. Again, that isn't the only factor at play, but it's one of them.
player opinion has 0 effect. Unfortunately MTG banned list isn't a democracy, Its a dictatorship. We have a pretty healthy community here. Our voices probably represent the majority of views in varying proportions of what all of the legacy community believes, and yet we see very little change year to year.Quote:
Originally Posted by iGrok
What i don't understand is why they are not more aggressive with their unbanning in legacy? There are only 2 legacy tournaments that wizards gives a shit about...if they even care that much. They could schedule the unbanning of a lot of cards so that it has no effect on the Legacy GP's. Other tournaments would develop the meta after the unbanning and if it was warped they could fix it before the next legacy gp. So many possible solutions but they don't give a FCUK!