why not godhead of awe instead of humility? Then it's a finisher as well as a control piece. you will probably counter any dismembers coming. pitches to force if it needs to. not picky about which lands you have in play.
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why not godhead of awe instead of humility? Then it's a finisher as well as a control piece. you will probably counter any dismembers coming. pitches to force if it needs to. not picky about which lands you have in play.
So what would you slot out in that case? I always feel like taking out counterbalance, since it feels like it's main role is that of an abrupt decay magnet. However, this often goes poorly for me since the RIP and Back to basics can now be easily decayed by my opponent who won't see any counterbalance on my side of the board that he/she has to save the decays for. Maybe the Vendilion Clique, since it often gets decayed/ punishing fired before it can do a lot of work? I however haven't tried using surgical extraction instead of rest in peace, so I can't comment on that yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by MiraclesWizard
So far, I'm using the same 60 card maindeck as Lossett since I don't feel that I can improve it at my current low level of understanding. Also, I enjoy winning in fancy ways, and Karakas tricks and ETA are much more fun for me than Monastery Mentor.
Without getting too much deeper into why this card is not playable, you'll still be facing down a 1/1 Yawgmoths Bargain and a 1/1 with Annihilator 6.Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosjace
What do you guys think of the japanese master nobuo saito's list? with 61 cards, 2 predicts, 3 swords to plowshares with only 3 creatures caught my attention. Seems like a lot of japanese players till go for the traditional entreat plan with cliques in the main.
Planeswalker (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creature (3)
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Sorcery (10)
1 Council's Judgment
3 Ponder
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
Instant (15)
4 Brainstorm
1 Spell Snare
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Counterspell
2 Predict
4 Force of Will
Artifact (5)
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantment (4)
4 Counterbalance
Land (21)
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
61 Cards
Sideboard (15)
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Containment Priest
1 Monastery Mentor
3 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Wear // Tear
2 Back to Basics
1 Ensnaring Bridge
i play a similar list as the one posted above me. why he chose to play that style of deck could be a variety of factors. maybe he feels this way of building it is superior to the other builds. maybe it fits his playstyle and personal preferences better. perhaps he thought this build would give him the best chance of winning. whatever style of miracles deck you play, the thing to keep in mind is the decisions that are made during each game and how they play out. your build can affect decision making in so many ways. opening hands, ponders, etc. are you building towards the one big entreat turn to end the game? are you looking to slam a monastery mentor with double divining top and attack your opponent for a billion? are you trying to lock them out with legendary creature shenanigans? each build while playing many similar cards plays very differently from each other. try all the builds and see which one you make better decisions with, or have more fun with.
personally, i like the entreat builds because I like trying to control the game entirely until that one big entreat turn. i don't want to open my mentors up to removal in game 1, or put so many cantrips into my deck that i can't actually control the game because i've had to cut too many control cards. i also feel like i make better decisions each game with the entreat build than i do with the other builds. and when playing miracles, i feel that it's the little decisions that matter most. joe lossett even spoke in an article where he said that he prefers playing with cards on the table rather than cards in his hand. that's why he likes his legends build over the other builds. you have to find what works best for you.
Anders Thiesen Got to the Top8 of Eternal Weekend Europe with Miracles. Read his great report here!
https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com...eu-legacy-6th/
Sib
Life is good
Thanks Das, Yu, and Bob; the power of blind flip.
https://youtu.be/P279kRHNYPc?t=39m5s
are the miracles decks that play Snapcaster mage as their only creature in the main outdated at this point? when I look at lists here is what I see. The majority of decks are playing Snapcaster Mage and Monastery Mentor in the main. Some are playing Losset's Miracles build. Few are playing Snapcaster Mage and Vendilion Clique. Very few are playing Snapcaster only.
The majority of decklists running Monastery Mentor in the main come from Magic Online where the metagame is different than on paper. Also, when running averages and comparisons, Monastery Mentor builds pull ahead of the other builds due to a bias of the majority of results coming in from Magic Online. Monastery Mentor might also be present more than any other build on Magic Online because of time constraints using the program.
Refer to Grand Prix Chiba where there were a lot of Monastery Mentor builds, but the one to come out ahead of all the others featured Vendilion Clique in the maindeck. Refer to some other tournaments like the Eternal Extravaganza and Sam Roukas took down the entire thing with only Snapcaster Mages in his maindeck. TC Decks also features a few tournaments with a large number of people that were won with either Snapcaster Mages only, or Snapcaster and Vendilion Clique.
So it seems like when it comes to paper magic high level tournaments, Monastery Mentor builds come up short in results. However, I think it's safe to say that the Monastery Mentor builds are the most popular build of Miracles currently (online and on paper).
I've been trying to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of each build in preparation for the Grand Prix and I'm struggling to figure out which version has the highest chance of success. Each build seems to excel against some decks while other builds seem to excel over others that don't seem to overlap.
(Note: For this comparison, I've left out Legends Miracles for 2 reasons. I have so little experience with that version of the deck, playing it would be a handicap. Also, I do not have access to double Moat.)
Monastery Mentor is really good against Eldrazi and Death and Taxes but really bad against Shardless BUG, Show and Tell, and Storm.
Vendilion Clique is really good vs Shardless BUG, Show and Tell, and Storm where Monastery Mentor is not.
Snapcaster as your only threat could be bad in the Miracles Mirror match if your opponent is running Mentors and Spell Snares and you are not.
Deathrite Shaman is in Shardless BUG and Grixis Delver and makes your Snapcasters worse. Which is why another creature threat may be needed. I think either of the 3 builds can handle Grixis Delver just fine.
So in a Grand Prix setting you have to expect the top tier decks, however you still have to be prepared against all the other decks that you may run into. Especially the decks that are there gunning for Miracles. With none of these decks overlapping, how are you supposed to figure out what the best version to play in this particular tournament setting?
How are you supposed to figure out whether to expect more aggressive creature based strategies or more combo and control type strategies?
Today i played @ the legacy championchip switzerland (84 player) with angelo cadej's MD.
The Deck felt insane. I get 3th/4th place in the top 8 and lost the semi to a teammate with jund in a close match(1:2). He won the whole Tournament.
I did some small missplays in the last match i think it's fine after just 3 Hours sleep:P
2:1 Sneak and Show
2:1 Infect
2:0 Infect
1:2 Eldrazi (bad missplay here)
2:0 Grixis Delver
2:0 Dredge
ID
Top 8:
2:0 Rug Delver ( Jonathan Alexanders list)
1:2 Jund
Against Eldrazi g3 otD would you keep this hand?
He mull to 6.
Hand was.
Volcanic island, Jace, fow, 2 Wear/Tear, BS,Snapi,
He played wasteland into needle after i keepet..
So today I run into a real tournament with the "Terminus-less" list I was testing (Terminus being replaced by Sudden Shock). While Sudden Shock was really strong against Elves and similar small-creatures based deck, it wasn't as good as it used to be online. I really missed Terminus and a couple of Kozilek's Return in sideboard would have been just superior. About Thing in the Ice, it was a great add-in against Tempo-Devler deck, and usually flip in 2 or 3 turn, wich was good, not the best-awesome-card, but good at what it does. The long and the short, this was a good test, and I enjoyed played the deck, but I'm back into "Standard" Miracle Mentor, much more stronger.Quote:
Originally Posted by kravkenov
1 non-basic land? Ship that all day. Even if it had two cantrips that's still a loose keep. Only one? No way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdingo
I'd keep that, though I wouldn't play SDT turn one. I'd hold up BS in case he has the Wasteland, and if he doesn't BS turn two.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/ae...28081-disallow
if it only had a built-in Misdirection effect as well.. definitloy interesting in a pure Flashy build
Its biggest problem are our best cards: Jace and Mentor. Too bad.
What a activated/triggered abilities are you wanting to counter for 3 mana?Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Planeswalker's ultimate or worse that can always happen, Emrakul's Annihilator, Karakas rescue of Thalia or Teeg.
Also Storm is useful to counter.
The real point is anyway the built-in effect. You can play it as a plain CSpell or as a Stifle. Not bad.
With a Misdirection effect as well it would be a 3x in my deck.. it still doesn't solve Decay
To start:Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
Recruiter (red or white) trigger
Balustrade Spy trigger
Flicker trigger
Griselbrand draw 7 activation, this might be the difference if the player cannot pay another 7 life.
Delay Eye of Ugin activation for a turn
Delay Stage activation for a turn
Look, your counter-magic is probably useless when your opponent has a Cavern. This at least would give your counter-magic another mode.
Mentor does help close out games faster so you get less draws and run out of clock less on MTGO. I been running them main deck lately but I had them in the board for some builds.
3 mana for Disallow just seems terrible. You can not counter Show and Tell or Monastery Mentor on the draw. You can not counter Counterbalance on the play. More likely to get Dazed or Spell Pierced. Will have to actually try it though.
Yep, it looks very bad. All the examples above are not something I'm able to use a 3 mana spell on (B Spy...seriously!?) or want to use a card on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianeira
Just saying I would play 1x this instead of the Stifle the japanese player was playing in his list.
It can be also the sweetest play ever if you float it on top of library while the storm player goes off.
You can either counter the Infernal Tutor with Hellbent or the Storm trigger on the last spell.
Why would you leave things up to chance? Mulliganing is a way of reducing the factor of chance, especially in a hand that loose. The hand looks good but it's just so soft to so many things. If the Volc was a basic then it would be much better. But the fact that it's a Volc makes that hand really, really bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
Hi guys, question from a landsplayer. Miracles usually sides in quite some cards (like 2 moons, 2 gravehate, 2 wear tear) against lands, and I presume from my experience you board out Terminus. If you don't mind confirming, do you board out the Termini? And does the fact that lands recently shifts towards postboard chalices and Trackers changed that boarding strategy?
or you can just float a Flusterstorm. but if they're smart they'll abrupt decay your top at you end step and then Cabal Therapy you for it when they go off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Against Lands, I would side-out Jace and Entreat (too slow) and also counter spells, because countering Life from the Loam do just nothing, but more and more Lands decks play Crucible and/or other horrible thing like that. I would board in Graveyard-hates (Surgicals, Rest in Peace), Enchantment/Artifacts hates (Wear//Tear) and if I do have it in my side, of course Bloodmoon effect. I dont really want to side-out Terminus because of Tracker that comes into play more often than not post-side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingo
Really? Chalice to shutdown your own gamble and crop rotation?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingo
Some number of those are usually boarded out.
Lands doesn't technically need it's one mana spells (although they are pretty good) to operate.
It's a minor setback in comparison to the impact it has on Miracles, especialy pre-top. Returning to the original question, what about postboard Terminus? In or out?Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Their decays are usually so taxed they can't afford to do so. But yes, if that line is open to them, they usually do this.Quote:
Originally Posted by drocker23
*Cut 2 terminus, if you expect them to be on trackers, everyone if only Ms Lage.
Against Lands, I always do:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingo
-4 Terminus
-1 Council's Judgment
-2 Counterspell
-1 Entreat the Angels
+2 Back to Basics
+2 Wear // Tear
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Vendilion Clique
You should never, ever board out Jace versus Lands. Not only is Jace the easiest way to beat Lands, but he's difficult for Lands to deal with and having him hit the board allows you to take over the game. Even though it's well known that Lands is on the Tracker plan postboard, having any amount of Terminus postboard is a pretty big liability. It's rare that STP is overloaded postboard when you have things like Surgicals to answer Lands' combo pieces. I will try to surgical Depths/Loam/Krosan Grip/Ghost Quarter (board state dependent).
Also Lands should always be sideboarding out Crop Rotations postboard. They're a nonbo with Chalice, CR is usually a horrible topdeck and its really bad for the Lands player when CR gets countered either by CB or otherwise.
I sideboard almost the same as hyp3r1on, just have Blood Moon/Ruination in the slots of Back to Basics. I like to have an Entreat in the deck though, it can steal a game and create blockers for Lage that aren't weak to Punishing Fire (like Clique) to allow Jace to bounce the token.
Thanks for the replies guys.
I don't understand this assessment. Let's say Lands has the aggressive opening, with exploration and/or mox diamond, and you can see it's threatening to make 20/20 soon. Having a Jace in your hand won't allow you to interact with that soon-ish combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by hyp3r1on
Let's say you are under Port lock and Wasteland Loam engine, it won't be easy to even get to four available mana with the correct color, and spend them on the main phase. Your priority is to shutdown the Loam engine, either via CB, Clique, or graveyard hate. Again, I still don't see how Jace can help with that.
Even if it's mid/late game, assuming CB is not involved, maybe we have not able to established CB floating 2, there is no way to defend Jace from PFire in the long run, you might be able to Jace-storm couple times before it dies.
Honestly, it's going to be very hard to play a 4 CMC spells while Lands player will often play 2 Wasteland/Ghost Quarter/Port each turn almost always recursively. Plus, Sphere of Resistance or Chalice, it's won't be easy to cantrip into our basics lands... But anyway, it's maybe a personal feeling.Quote:
Originally Posted by hyp3r1on
Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Quote:
Originally Posted by kravkenov
Out of curiousity, if all of this is happening, how are you planning on winning the game? Hyperion is describing situations in which we are at parity or not too far behind, and JTMS is the best way to win after you've repeatedly given your opponent 20 life via repeated Marit Lage attempts. Do note that he only takes out 1 Entreat, as he plays 2 in his list.
Without Counterbalancing Life from the Loam for ever or Graveyard hate (or Moat, Bridge and co, but these cards are not widely played), Miracle is not going to win the match. If it is true that Jace can win the game, it won't prevent you to lose the game where Surgicals or Rest in Peace probably will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minniehajj
Let say we have 8 cards to side-in. I will cut the Jace and Entreat because with all the mana denial, these cards will be too hard to cast, Counterspell because there it dosent make sens to counter Life from the Loam and few Terminus if needed to make some rooms, considering Terminus is harder to set-up than casting Swords. To actually win the game, there is still Mentor, who is not afraid of beating 40+ life.
You're describing situations where you are behind in the game and not giving a cohesive game plan on how you plan on turning the corner and winning the game. Take out a win condition that doesn't care about life total, I think, isn't the best way to go about attempting to win the game when Mentor has even more weaknesses than Jace does in the matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by kravkenov
You need to evaluate how you're losing, and how you plan on winning, not simply looking at the game as if you're hopelessly losing.
I don't think anyone is going to disagree with you regarding the importance of disrupting the Lands recursion engine or having an answer to early aggressive plays. But I do think that once you manage to establish your soft lock or cut them off Loam, Jace is probably the safest and easiest way to win since he can help lock your opponent out of the game while providing a clock that doesn't care about life totals.Quote:
Originally Posted by kravkenov
Mentor on the other hand has a few more problems as a win con in the Lands matchup; For example it's softer against punishing fire and is susceptible to cards like Glacial Chasm and Tabernacle. It is definitely capable of winning faster than Jace in the right situations, but Lands typically has more effective answers for it than it does for Jace.
I share the same thought as well till one day they slaughter games my swords to plowshares and I lost within the next turn. Nowadays I will leave in about 2 terminus as an insurance policy. I am not excited to see it but at least it answers marit lage and tracker if necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by hyp3r1on
On a side note, what are your thoughts on wizards slamming down the banhammer on miracles? It is drawing a lot of attention in the B/R discussion.
Slaughter Games isn't a usual SB card for lands. I'd always still side out Terminus, if you see it game two you can change SBing for the third.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1987
They haven't banned it yet, so there's really no reason to expect a ban is coming soon or really ever. The B&R thread on this site is honestly one of the worst threads I've ever read so I wouldn't take much of what they say seriously. A ban might happen, but I'd be surprised and it wouldn't really be predictable. Also this isn't modern, and most cards on the list deserve to be there on their own merits.
Slaughter Games was discussed as a sideboardcard on the Lands forum, for this very scenario (extracting plows), and based on the assumption Terminus gets sided out. How effective do you guys consider this strategy?Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1987