If people expect Maverick to make a comeback, they will probably play UWR True Name or Miracles. I dont think that people will read into it's win very much though, we could see a rise in forked bolt.
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If people expect Maverick to make a comeback, they will probably play UWR True Name or Miracles. I dont think that people will read into it's win very much though, we could see a rise in forked bolt.
I have extensive experience playing infect: finals of one PTQ, top 4 of another. The correct time to kill a creature with infect is any time after Combt Damage step. End of turn is great since it still frees your mana up on your turn. Every time someone tries to kill my infect creature on my turn before Combat Damage they get punished very hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strassbaw
Decided to pilot Vial Maverick on Sunday after a mediocre record in the Legacy portion of the Invitational, finished 3rd out of 222 in the Premier IQ. Beat Miracles (2-1), Merfolk (2-0), UR Delver Stiflenought (2-1), Mono-Green Cloudpost (2-1), Pyromancer Stoneblade (2-0), and Goblins (2-1), with two intentional draws, before beating UR Delver (2-0) in Top 8 and losing to Miracle Blade (0-2) in semis. Given how hostile my matchups would have been against Miracles (my initial choice), I am very happy I made the switch on Sunday.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
I love the concept of the list, but I'm sure there's a ton of room for improvement since pretty much no one but M@verick does any development on this list whatsoever.
This is a card worth testing. I'm of the opinion that I don't need weenie removal. I need sweepers and/or widely applicable "I just blow stuff up" spells. I favor ZP, Deluge, PTE, and Decay for these reasons. Recursion is cute (can certainly snowball in your favor should you stop an opponent early on) but if I need to clear the table I'm doing it in one fell swoop.Quote:
Originally Posted by PCottell
I absolutely love Deluge. It's crap on paper but if you're behind in legacy...holy moley you're behind bad. Lots of creature decks can't deal with a board-wipe. Maverick has no real answer other than preventing one via Teeg and Thalia. Both of the aforementioned cards are annoying but speedbumps for Deluge. Light and Shadow is a hell of a card. If you really want to punish the mirror match, Mirran Crusader is basically Thor with any equipment (double-strike + triggers is just ridiculous).Quote:
So, to recap this rambling report/inquriry, here's what I'm wondering:
-Best mirror match tech available besides the obvious that's been stated in this thread (SoLaS, Zealous, Tower)? Is Linvala worth a look? Deluge to get out from situations where you're on the draw and you're behind all game?
Forked Bolt is very very well-positioned. Terminus is still strong. I hate both those cards. Upswings are hard to predict. I honestly see true combo coming back into vogue soon. I have a feeling Storm will be on the upswing (oh joy...more terrible MUs ahead!). I also see Sneak Show/Reanimator doing something big. WotC gave us Containment Priest. The pendulum will swing in the opposite direction within a year of CP existing. I've noticed this trend of "[deck] gets a new toy" "WotC make a stronger problem" situation.Quote:
-What kind of anti-Maverick tech should be on the upswing? It's a resilient deck, but I recall first getting in to the archetype circa summer of 2012 when it was on its way out of contention and was getting blown out on a regular basis by Griselbrand and RUG delver decks playing a pile of 2-1 spot removal like Fire//Ice and Forked Bolt.
I have several players playing infect in my meta right now and what I find is casting removal "at sorcery speed" (during my turn) is the best way to deal with their creatures. Even if they use Vines in response, it prevents them from using a pump spell during their turn lessening the poison counters you are recieving. Jitte is your greatest weapon against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
Nice job! I have been waiting for someone to finally do well with a vial list on this side of the pond.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
I watched you play the final match vs Goblins and from the looks of it you were having a good time shutting his vials off with an instant speed Containment Priest. Spicy!Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
I had a rough time with a R/W/U Countertop/Stoneblade variant earlier in the day, and I'm wondering what specific part of your attack gives you favor vs these strategies? Every time my Mom gets Swords to Plowshare'd the turn before I can get Teeg on the board, I've wondered if Sylvan Safekeeper is better when Teeg with protection is the only way to swing that matchup in your favor. How did that work out for you?
Is Wayfarer in there to shore up the lack of utility land fetching you lose by cutting Knight of the Reliquary? How's the synergy between him, Scryb Ranger, and Safekeeper?
Also, are you more in to winning via equipment due to the lack of KotR? Does this explain Batterskull + 4 SFMs?
And lastly, did you miss having access to Scavenging Ooze? It looks like you certainly have room for at least one, especially with the cradle powering his ability and having Vial to flash him out and not tie up any mana.
Bravo on making Top 8 through that field. I was at the first two tables all day and saw more Jeskai Stoneblade, Lands, and Miracles variants for my own comfort.
Hey, I didn't recognize you as being from the Source, although I think I remember you observing my opponent from behind in that match. I should probably note that this strategy is more similar to Death and Taxes than traditional Maverick, and that my list is derivative of decks that had already been based on the "Green and Taxes/Vial Maverick" shell.Quote:
Originally Posted by PCottell
The Containment Priests were a bit awkward: I simply felt they were better than Thalia in the matchup since the ability to flash in a blocker or in response to a Port was probably better than the first strike on Thalia, and Thalia awkward hurts us more than it hurts them. They're a little more mana hungry than us, so it's quite possible that the ability to optionally shut down Vials favors us. In any case, you may have seen G2, where the Containment Priests just served as Grizzly Bears with downside since I had Aether Vial, but I managed to draw both copies after he had Pyrokinesised my other creatures (but even a 2/2 with a Jitte does a ton of work against Goblins!). In G3, he mulled to 5 and kept a hand with Vial, Lackey, and Wasteland, and he pretty much had to hope I stumbled on mana so he fired off the Wasteland right away. It was obviously a beating there!
I don't have a lot of experience with the UWr Stoneblade decks that also include Counterbalance/Top, but we have more creatures than they have removal to burn: Weathered Wayfarer is capable of wrecking their manabase by itself, and both Mother and Deathrite are bolt magnets as well, to say nothing of Thalia, Teeg, or Stoneforge Mystic. With a Vial, we're also capable of playing creatures a lot faster than they can cantrip and play their removal. You can pretty much present enough much must answer threats that Thalia or Teeg will provide virtual card advantage as long as you prevent them from getting something like a Lavamancer or a Jitte online (particularly on TNN). Safekeeper is a bit awkward early but is one of your strongest cards late, but in a pinch, you can use him early to keep a turn 2 Stoneforge on board if your gameplan is Batterskull or Bust. I don't know how the Countertop package affects this matchup though, since this list is surprisingly susceptible to Counterbalance compared to DNT or regular Maverick.Quote:
Originally Posted by PCottell
This is in contrast to the Miracles matchup, where only a handful of cards really matter (Teeg, Choke, and SoFI or SoLS to protect Teeg). I believe I have a solid sideboard plan to deal with Miracles, although I was a little less familiar with the Stoneforge version I ended up facing in the semis.
Wayfarer was part of the original list and doesn't really "replace" anything. I made the decision to cut Knight from the deck since my local metagame is rampant with Miracles, and I'd rather have Gaddock Teeg in the main, particularly since I hate ticking Vial up to 3 with no Flickerwisps to reset. Initially, I moved Viciano's MD Knights to the SB (a simple swap with Teeg), but I eventually cut them anyway. I wouldn't mind bringing them back, as Knight might be my favorite creature ever! Wayfarer is awesome in matchups against slower decks though, and being able to use him to constantly fuel Safekeeper is terrific. As you've noticed, Scryb Ranger allows you to activate Wayfarer later without losing tempo, and while it's cool, it's not quite as awesome as it seems on paper (since you'd like to play the lands you fetch up without resetting a Forest or two every turn cycle). However, sometimes, you really need to use those cards to enable Wayfarer even for no "value". I did that in R4 against 12-Post to tutor up Wastelands as well as to get Gaea's Cradle to power through Elephant Grass, as well as in R5 to chain Wastelands against a mana-starved Stoneblade list when I was comfortably ahead on board but had no way to beat a TNN at the ready (although it turned out he didn't have one in hand anyway).Quote:
Originally Posted by PCottell
The lack of a real beater such as Knight means you often win by mana denial or connecting with equipment. Batterskull is probably the worst equipment in the deck and wasn't in the original list I copied, but with the popularity of Young Pyromancer recently, particularly in aggressive strategies, I thought it made sense to cut it for the SoLS. It's more used for the lifegain than the quick clock though, since our dorks put up a surprisingly fast clock on an empty board if they manage to disrupt the opponent and any creature with an equipment is pretty threatening.Quote:
Originally Posted by PCottell
I haven't really missed Scavenging Ooze in this deck, even though it's one of my favorite creatures as well (I run it over Tarmogoyf in Zoo!). Deathrite Shaman provides a lot of the same functions with much less investment, particularly in games where we don't have a T1 Vial, but I certainly wouldn't fault anyone for trying to add it back in. I think all the other two drop creatures provide more utility that it's difficult to find room for Ooze. Keep in mind that the original list I modify didn't run Ooze, so this was not a deliberate decision on my card to actually cut it from existing lists.Quote:
Originally Posted by PCottell
You may notice that from all my answers, this deck plays out like a Death and Taxes deck (except with much better utility creatures, real sideboard options, and reduced susceptibility to mono-white hate in exchange for a worse manabase and fewer beaters) more than it does Maverick, and I encourage you to approach it as such when you play. I believe it trades a slightly worse matchup against most Delver decks for a better one against most forms of control and combo. However, its origins are very much entwined with those of Maverick: in fact, vestiges of the list can still be seen in the original post/primer of this thread!
Can we get a list? Sounds fun!
Here's the list I played. I don't think it's anywhere near optimized yet, so if anyone wants to try this out, feel free to share your experiences and suggestions!Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Code:4 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Mother of Runes
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Scryb Ranger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 3 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Sword of Light and Shadow
No love for Knight of the Reliquary - I know its 3cmc which isn't tick on vial, but running those colors with Wayfarer and Moms/Sylvan ignoring KotR and its utility isn't right. I would find place for KotR and probably also DD/TS package with so many ways to find it.
KotR can be your only way to wall vs aggresive U/R decks, all other creatures has X/1 or X/2. It also best creature to win the race.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
Knight is a card I would love to fit back in the deck: it's my favorite creature of all time. I don't think the list I played was anything close to optimized, so if anyone has a list they're comfortable with, please share.
Who knows though, perhaps a knightless version warrants more testing and could be better in the current metagame. I know it seems like the wrong thing to do, but pretty much all innovation starts that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
I tried typing this earlier, but work > me today.
I think KotR is one of the few cards the deck absolutely needs. It's used offensively as well as for utility. In an era of -1/-1 effects, I wouldn't want to run an army of dorks (unless it led to NO --> win). I also think Sylvan Library warrants inclusion somewhere. I've tried Vial builds a few times and felt they just paled in comparison to GSZ. You may be onto something big @lordofthepit, but cutting Knights is probably not the optimal path. But who knows, you've already had success with it.
If I went Vial-Maverick, I'd think about
4 STP
4 Vial
2 Library
3 DRS
4 Mom
4 Thalia
3 Avenger ---> I like these in one of the utility slots
3 SFM
3 KotR
Let's talk about BWG Maverick a little bit.
I love this deck. Maverick was my favorite deck when I got into Legacy, and then it became non viable for a long time, and I switched over to Death and Taxes for awhile as my 2nd favorite deck. Now, it seems the meta has given room for Maverick to come back, a lot more blue mid range type decks are out there and having abrupt decay and cavern at your disposal punches through the counter magic. There is a lot more to help build a nice board to adjust to combo decks which I believed to be Maverick's biggest weakness in the past.
Just won 2 tourneys (local) with this deck and finished another tonight 3-1. I almost had a 4-0. (ascendancy combo 1-2, elves 2-1, rug 2-0, blue red delver 2-1)
Reason I say almost 4-0 is b/c 3rd game vs ascendancy I only need to top deck an abrupt decay, krosan grip, golgari charm, cannonist, or pithing needle but I bricked it. I lasted awhile too considering he was able to drop 3 cruises on me and then I locked for a few turns and drew no outs (had him to 4).
List:
Creatures (26)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of Reliquary
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Quasali Pridemage
1 Dryad Arbor
Spells (12 )
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Green Sun Zenith
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
Lands (22+Dryad Arbor)
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Forest
1 Karakas
Sideboard (15)
1 Pithing Needle
2 Containment Priest
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Cataclysm
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Krosan Grip
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Golgari Charm
I want to replace Cataclysm or Choke for a 2nd Gaddock Teeg (or possibly mainboard 2 and replace Ooze) and I definitely need to pick up Horizon Canopy and replace either 1 fetchland or 1 cavern, but cavern does wonders. Any other land to consider replacing?
Don't forget to trigger knight for bog during the opponent's upkeep to combat against treasure cruise. The deck fairs ok vs combo, where both storm and sneak and show take game 1, with the board this deck has pulled the last 2 games out for me and should for you.
The board is very strong against blue red delver, stoneforge/TNN decks (or american), and elves as I've seen so far. I know Sigarda might seem odd but she's won me a few games against other fair deck matchups (pushing you ahead during the slower matchups), including RUG and BUG. Choke hasn't done that much, I'm debating putting a Nihil Spellbomb in there instead. Strong vs Miracles as I've found, just need to make sure you have cavern and decay for counter balance and your fine. Just remember not to overextend b/c of terminus.
I like only running 3 stoneforge as my 2 sword tutors just bc that 4th slot I think could go somewhere else more useful, and since I'm only running the 2 swords, they are both things I can just drop from my hand on the draw anyway. There's a lot of artifact hate in many sideboards I've run across (to combat all the stoneforge decks in the meta - at least that's what I've seen) so I don't like to weigh too heavily on the stoneforge aspect.
Haven't tried it against Mud, Death n Taxes, or Re-animator. Anyone with a similar build who knows I'd love to read your feedback.
Not sure I like 2 Marsh Flats in a deck with Dryad Arbor.
For sure Windswept heath would be better in this slot - can fetch any of your lands.
Yea,
I need to make that switch for windswept. Good call
Hey guys!
If you'd like to check out the tournament report I wrote for winning the Portland open with Maverick, my article is up!
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...tland-1st.html
I discussed the deck in my last two articles, so this was a more hard to the paint match summaries, and not my usual theory ramblings and such.
Yeah Marsh Flats was dumb, and Canonist can't stop Shardless agent.
Thanks for checking it out!
Pretty much this and the above. It reminds me of the veeeery old ZOO mirrors we've encountered in HS. Those learnt me how to approach the decks with Giant Growths. You basically "always" let the dude swing through and do nothing, only to remove him in response to pump spell. Now it's their time to pump again in response to your removal, but you got a real advantage in StP, as contrary to burn, nothing than hexproof trick might save their creature.Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
So most of the times it's best to kill the dude in their eot after they've dealt the grotty one counter. The only exception might be Rancor, as you really want to rules-counter the spell, but even then I'd be careful to not fall into trap; a difference betwen three poison counters and ten poison counters is... well a real difference, right?
Also, it's not unreasonable to kill their creatures on your turn, esp. when they lack free mana and/or cards in hand. This is not a matchup where you want to x-for-1 somebody, this is combo mu where you may lose out of nowhere. Are they tapped out? Waste the Nexus. Do they lack cards? Kill the dude before they draw Vines/Force.