Would you mind elaborating a bit?Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinTurkey
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Would you mind elaborating a bit?Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinTurkey
Warping Wail give you extra ability to remove problem creatures like a Young Pyromancer, Deathrite Shaman, etc. Also answering annoying sorceries like Natural Order, Terminus, Infernal Tutor, etc seems pretty good. The 1/1 ability gives you the reach to end of turn make a 1/1 to stick your stranded jitte/sword to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
Sorry for the confusion, I know what the card does, and I nearly hit the roof when I saw the card when it was spoiled because it looks so good on the surface.Quote:
Originally Posted by skyout
What I want to know is how it plays.
Hello everyone, aspiring D&T player here. I just recently finished building Lands and found myself with nearly the entire list for my favorite archetype of all time. My question to you all is: how important is the 3x Karakas? It's been present as a 3x in nearly every list I've seen and I'm aware of many of the tricks Karakas lets you pull, but how often are those tricks vital to the winning of a game and would going down to a 1-2x (only have one right now) drastically impact my ability to win games in a competitive environment?
Another less important question I have is what cards do you view as important to have ready for D&T regardless of whether you're playing them at any one event? My goal is to eventually have a collection of D&T staples so that I can edit my decklist in the hour before any event I want to play the deck in. Quantities of these cards would also be appreciated, though I suspect many of them will simply be playsets.
I appreciate any and all advice in these regards.
Karakas is pretty important against Show and Tell, Reanimator/Tin Fins and Miracles. 1-2 copies would effect the win rate against those archetypes. Against most other archetypes it isn't hugely impactful.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRabbler
Mostly comes down to bouncing their creatures, and/or how many legends of your own you are running to protect from removal or play tricks with (Thalia, Brimaz, Mangara).Quote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
Sounds like we could put together a list of cards that frequently go in the deck that one might want to have handy for meta adaption.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRabbler
I could take a first stab here, it will certainly be incomplete. I won't list cards that are considered a core starting point for the deck (Karakas, Wasteland, Port, Thalia, Mother of Runes, Flickerwisp, Stoneforge Mystic, Phyrexian Revoker, Aether Vial, Swords to Plowshares, Batterskull, Sword of Fire and Ice, Umezawa's Jitte). I have also included cards for Green and Red splashes, as well as some of the more interesting builds (Arbiter/Ghost Quarter and Restoration Angel/Dust Bowl).
Creatures:
Mangara of Corondor
Serra Avenger
Vryn Wingmare
Mirran Crusader
Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Restoration Angel
Ethersworn Canonist
Containment Priest
Kor Firewalker
Spirit of the Labyrinth
Leonin Arbiter
Aven Mindcensor
Leonin Relic-Warder
Fiend Hunter
Imperial Recruiter
Magus of the Moon
Cunning Sparkmage
Goblin Sharpshooter
Gaddock Teeg
Qasali Pridemage
Land:
Cavern of Souls
Ghost Quarter
Dust Bowl
Fetches
Plateau
Savannah
Spells:
Cataclysm
Armageddon
Sunlance
Path to Exile
Dismember
Disenchant
Council's Judgement
Oblivion Ring
Seal of Cleansing
Enlightened Tutor
Warping Wail
Pithing Needle
Engineered Explosives
Ratchet Bomb
Powder Keg
Grafdigger's Cage
Manriki-Gusari
Rest in Peace
Sword of War and Peace
Sword of Light and Shadow
Circle of Protection Red
Absolute Law
Chrome Mox
Holy Light
Relic of Proge
Choke
Sudden Demise
Forked Bolt
Karakas is also insurance vs Marit Lage in Lands and pretty relevant in the mirror, at least g1.
I used to play the mono white version when I had only 1 Karakas. I am glad I got 3 now, its good protection for your Legendary Creatures and vs Reanimator, Lands etc also very nice.
Btw anyone tried to play Warmth in the sideboard vs Burn/goblins?
Kor Firewalker is likely better, especially vs. Goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Farone
Where do people stand on Vryn Wingmare? I continue to see anywhere from 0 to 4 copies in successful lists. Anyone care to weigh in?
It's my sig. I mean, like many cards it can be great, but it always comes at the expense of others. So ask yourself what you want to do with the deck*, the matchups you're most worried about, and how to best meet those goals. Part of the reason you see so much variance is that these are considered flex slots, so there's no single answer that's best for all players and all metas. Some other flex slot options:Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
Mirran Crusader
New colorless-mana-cost cards (Displacer, Wail)
Splash-color cards (Recruiter, Teeg, Bob)
Rounding out playsets of existing choices (Avenger, Flickerwisp, Revoker)
Player favorites (Spirit of the Labyrinth, Restoration Angel, Mangara)
So ... that's pretty much where people stand. :tongue:
*EDIT: What I mean is, do you want to control mana costs? Disrupt permanents already on the field? Be, be aggressive? Add defense against Golgari Charm? Fly over your own Moat?
No that makes sense. Thanks for the reply :smile: I personally kind of feel like it's a little bit of a win-more card that doesn't fundamentally do anything that the deck isn't already doing, and it's weaknesses weigh too much (x/1, 3cmc).
But I want to acknowledge and consider it as I see that lists running 4 are doing well.
I'm not sure if you're disregarding it by calling it a win-more card. If you are, I would reconsider. Wingmare's effect is very strong, and when its paired with another copy or Thalia you can often shut out entire decks - this is the #1 priority of D&T. Meta depending it makes sense to run as many as 4 copies. I've had very good results with the card, and there are also times when it needs to come out after game one. That can be said about many of the cards we use, it all comes down to the metagame. Right now I'm on board with 2-4. We'll have to see where things go now that Oath has introduced us to Warping Wail. The only thing I've not enjoyed about the card is that it introduces another x/1 white body, which is often bad especially in postboard games.Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
Pasted from a Merfolk thread:
I imagine Wingmare also doesn't do much against Elves, a perennial bad matchup for us. shrug.Quote:
I now realize that D&T is not as bad as a matchup as I felt it was before, a lot to do with the 4x vryn wingmare. Before, those were combat-oriented dudes that were a lot more of a pain.
Merfolks still being one of our best matchups while Elves remains one of the worst. Vryn Wingmare does not have much to say here. And if it were not so, I prefer to keep improving other popular matchups instead of these not tier 1 decks actually.
RE: Vryn Wingmare (and keeping in mind kirbysdl's excellent sig that we should all, always think with)
IMO, it is the best option we have if you want to emphasize the prison aspect of the deck. Sure, it is bad against Elves. So are lots of other core cards we have. The cards that are better against Elves are frequently mediocre in other matches, as I indicate below.
I am only considering WW. RW and GW are different builds with different considerations.
What is Vryn Wingmare competing with in that slot?
Mangara of Corondor
Aven Mindcensor
Spirit of the Labyrinth
Mirran Crusader
Phyrexian Revoker.
Let's go through each option:
Mangara of Corondor is very soft to every Delver deck, Jund, and Combo. It is best against opposing fair control (Lands, Miracles) and midrange (Stoneblade) decks, but Wingmare is very good against Miracles, fair against Lands, and much better against Delver and Combo. Wingmare is also a flying attacker/defender, which is always value.
Aven Mindcensor is best against combo, but a bit slow, and not terrible against everything with fetch lands, but IMO making draw spells, non-creature combo pieces, and removal cost extra mana is generally superior. Mindcensor is generally only better against Elves.
Spirit of the Labyrinth is a remarkably situational card. It is either great or terrible. I think the perpetual tax of Wingmare is just better against everything except Elves. (Anyone notice a trend here?)
Mirran Crusader is a very different card. If GBx is your nemesis, Crusader is great, but it is not a prison card except where it can block or in matches where we are the aggro deck. I think this is a toss up, but I think you can have both in the deck.
Phyrexian Revoker is an issue only because IMO, if you want 3-4 Wingmare with 1 Mirran Crusader, you have to cut 1 Revoker. They are typically great in different matches and they don't overlap that much. IMO, you want at least 3 of each.
What are the positive features of Vryn Wingmare?
- Flying. This is serious value on attack and defense. It trades with Insectile Aberration and with equipment races almost everything.
- Non-Creature tax. Have you had this out with Thalia and watched people try to cantrip? That is way, way better than SotL, especially since it also taxes their removal, not simply their draw. Excellent against combo if you get to turn 3.
- Not legendary. Legendary is awesome with Thalia, but this allows us to stack our tax effect. Against most decks, Thalia and 2 Wingmare on the field is GG, Elves, Merfolk, Goblins, and DnT being notable exceptions (notice the Tribal theme?) Then again, if you have Wingmare in after sideboarding against those decks, you're not the brightest bulb in the socket.
- Combined with Serra Avenger and Flickerwisp, we are talking 10-11 flyers. Holy cow that is sweet sweetness in Legacy!
The most obvious downside is
- Toughness: 2/1.
RE: Warmth
I like Absolute Law better than it, Kor,, or CoP: Red. Making our creatures pro-R has been the absolute best for me, both against Goblins and Burn and against Jund and Lands.
Regarding Wingmare I'm just not sure. Like when DTT was still in the format I think it made sense to run some number of Thalia 5 through 6, 7 or 8 just to try and up percentages vs Omnitell. With that deck gone I just don't know. And the reason I'm asking is that it is quite interesting when a card is both a 4-of and a 0-of in lists performing in big tournaments. I mean that's pretty unique, no? Usually the flex slots mean 0-2 of something while the core creatures are usually there in 4s (some people like to shave a flickerwisp or revoker so there's an exception).
For me I can't help but feel like it's a bit too much variance as to when it will pay off having wingmare and when it won't. Bahra made the very good point that Dread of Night wrecks this deck and that is more true the more X/1 white dudes we carry. Also, a 3CMC taxing effect is quite slow. And I guess what I meant by win-more is that when you do curve thalia into wingmare then sure, that can be absolutely soul crushing but I think often the thalia alone is doing enough work there and we could maybe do better with a less fragile 3CMC creature here. I get that it also, in a way, acts as redundant Thalias, and heck, she's probably the most quintissential creature in the deck so that makes total sense. Only if Thalia were 3CMC then it would be a completely different story. It goes back to my point about it being slow. Like sure sometimes storm won't have killed us, un-interrupted, by the time we get our 3rd turn, but quite often they will so it's important for us to be able to slam a hatepiece on turn 2, not turn 3.
Meh I don't know. I tried for a bit, like I said, during the DTT-era and it was sometimes-great, sometimes-not.
I have gone up to 3 Wingmares recently w/ the RW build, replacing a 4th Flickerwisp. Thalia -> Wingmare g1 on the play is unbeatable for a lot of the format. Combined w/ Magus of the Moon, there are a lot of T2 Thalia T3 'effectively win the game' - T4 if this is all off Vial.
While you're weak to Dread of Night etc., the only great taxing creature that isn't is Ethersworn Canonist. This deck is called Death and Taxes not Death and Creatures-that-beat-Dread-of-Night. So I think using some of your SB space to make yourself less weak to -1/-1 effects post-board seems better than showing up with a weaker g1 deck.
So I have been playing this nonsense...
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Vryn Wingmare
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 AEther Vial
1 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
7 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
4 Rugged Prairie
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Mirran Crusader
SB: 1 Absolute Law
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Cataclysm
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
edit: Ok I'll say something about this. So I am a mad fan of Eidolon of the Great Revel. It is kinda Taxing the Opponent by making them pay life (instead of mana).
I am fully aware that this doesn't "stack" in terms of control over the game the same way Thalia and Wingmare Stack, or Eidolon of the Great Revel + Burn spells in a burn deck. But I thought I'd try it anyway. The List I strated with ran three Serra Avenger and a Mirran Crusader instead, so I didn't take any Taxes out, I cut on the Death.
Anyway It works, kinda. Funky and shit, I almost never cast the Eidolons, they get vialed in mostly (like the Serra Avengers would)...
edit2: Ok, the 2 Rugged Prairie 1 Wasteland 4 Spells openers make some kind of deckbuilding flaw obvious... :really: