Why do you think player opinion has 0 effect?
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Why do you think player opinion has 0 effect?
Player opinion has anything other than zero effect. It is measured by the amount of people going to events and is a metric that is watched very closely. It is one of the reasons that Jace/Stoneforge happened to find themselves banned just before rotation, one of the reasons that Affinity bit the dust (thank fuck) and one of the reasons that MM died as a card. It's not the be all and end all, but it has a very real effect and a very visible impact that can be measured.
Otoh, is this proportional to the increased promotion? Considering the obvious DiabloIIIization of game and all the other changes in the last decade that made MtG much more mainstream, is it even possible to tell if there'd be more or less ppl entering the tournaments due to the game design and B&R managment only?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I mean, yes, MM is stupid card and wutnot, but can we even tell what's going on on tournament scene without even looking at the massive promo and w/e the else that affects the sells, social acceptance of MtG as a hobby, or the will to share time and money on it. I'm not saying that any number of Liliana posters in my lgs will outweight the bad experience and I doubt that any sane mature man will start playing MtG and visiting tournaments solely due to promo, but these things tend to completely fall out of the picture, while they clearly have their role. As long as there are tournaments in the particular format where the people may play for prizes and play to emulate their particular pop-culture stars insert whatever-the-name-of-the-recent-pro, they'd be visiting the lgs, unless we're talking about Mir-Kami Type2 or The Jace's Standard, right?
Let's be honest, how many Legacy players do you know who give a shit about the poster on the wall? I travel eight hours a week to play and that is because I am going to locations that offer the formats I want, not because of a coloured tarpolon hanging on the wall. There is more than one place less than half an hour from my home, some guys travel twice the distance I do and I would bet they are not there due to a cardboard cut-out with a plastic axe.
So no, I would argue that is not proportional because we are not talking about Standard here, we are not talking about people that are pooling over the new spoilers looking to build a whole new deck out of it and we are not looking at people who care about the latest Walker who is in the promo art. We are talking about people who have come to the game on the back of things like having older cards, seeking more complex game play or Star City Games and other streaming media and not pretty pictures hanging on a wall.
Did Mental Misstep actually affect tournament attendance in any impactful way?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Let's rephrase it then: They don't really care what Eternal players (or Modern players, to a certain extend) think.
I have read in some accounts that yes, it did. I am willing to admit I may be wrong in this matter though.
Could you please quote me correctly instead of chopping and glueing together parts of several phrases, if you want to setup a discussion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Oh really? You may want to read back in thks thread more than one or two pages? I just reentered this thread because of "colors" popping up again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Drawing direct parallels for Restrictions in Vintage and Bannings in Legacy was dismissed by WotC in 2004 because it was considered stupid by them and you still want to argue based in that? Read the B&R announcement for Brainstorm, Ponder, Merchant Scroll and Gush in regards to their restriction. Point me to the passage where something was written about "power reasons". Seriously, I'm waiting. I can only remember them talking about Brainstorm and Ponder making it too easy to access restricted bombs. That's NOT the same thing and I hope I don't have to explain that in an extended post just because you opt to miss the point by intent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Has Legacy ANY one-card gamechanger like Vintage has in Will, Necro, Bargain, etc.? Once more, BS + Ponder got restricted in Vintage because they make accessing those stupid powerful gamechangers easy. We don't have anything like that in Legacy and the powerlevel in Legacy is no way near Vintages. Apples and Oranges all over if you compare brainstorming into Werbear->Tarmogoyf->SFM with brainstorming into Tinker in Vintage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
The whole parallels with Vintage in terms of powerlevels are ridiculous. The only similarity is that both formats have a certain number of fundamental cards atm which are required to perform well in tournaments (mana-artifacts vs. Pinder+Brainstorm+Fetches)
Yeah, WotC printed Fauna Shaman and Infernal as fixed versions of Survival and Demonic. Your point was? Comparing a cantrip to a tutor?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
And people splash blue for Brainstorm and Ponder because Mirris Guile and Sylvan Library are less convenientQuote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Except they obviously do. People were calling for Birthing Pod's head for months prior to the ban, and basically everyone in Modern thought Cruise was too powerful. Chapin has argued pretty convincingly that the aggressive policy toward banning in Modern is a direct result of it being a Pro Tour/ PTQ format and the need to keep it from being stagnant as a result of incentivizing Pros to break it for a week each year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
But perhaps the strongest evidence for Wizards caring about Legacy players' enjoyment of the format is that Brainstorm remains unbanned. It's an incredibly polarizing topic, and I think it's telling that when Jeff Hoogland raised the issue the response from most of the Legacy community was to mock him and say'good riddance'. As much as some people really hate Brainstorm, I think that Wizards' analysis definitely tilts toward the idea that a ban would hurt the format's popularity which is why it hasn't happened. It might also be why they have a very conservative approach towards unbanning cards that might actually spawn new decks rather than cards whose time has clearly come and gone. No one loses when Dragon isn't a tier 1 deck, but some people gain a little bit of fun brewing or nostalgia from jamming WGD/Animate Dead for the first time in years. If Vengevival or Griselbrand/Retainers turns out to be as good as Treasure Cruise, a lot of people might quit playing.
Also you know, Sorcery speed things that don't make an impact until your next upkeep and can be disrupted by things like Decay and such.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
And, you know, a couple hundred miles behind blue's options in power level, which was kind of the whole fucking point. This doesn't happen nearly to the same degree with other key tools.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Reinforcing the point, not rebutting you
Unless somebody has saved the exact wording of the banned announcement, it's pretty hard to find since Wizards archive is empty. Good job, Wizards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Power levels are different between Legacy and Vintage, but just restricting the impact of digging to 1-card combos is ridiculous. Legacy does have A+B combos they dig for and are just as stupid, like S&T + wincon, which do become 1-card bombs if you have the other (redundant) combo piece in hand. You don't dig for broken 1-ofs, you dig for copies of redundant combo pieces that are 4-8-ofs in the deck.
Also, are you denying that the power level of the format hasn't increased alot? Why did the use of Brainstorm jump from ~50% in 2011 to the 70-75% we have to today? "Fun" can't be the sole reason.
As for the Alpha thing, you brought it up. Just because blue had it since Alpha doesn't mean it isn't broken. I could very well live with Brainstorm gone and being replaced by the "fixed" Anticipate. :wink:
If the announcement isn't to dig up, we skip on that, agree? S&T + X is still miles less stupid than all the random blowouts I have witnessed and executed in Vintage over my time playing the format and that is that I was hinting at. We have to set things into relation if we throw Legacy and Vintage into the same ring and it makes one hell of a difference if you have your cantrips used for getting hands on TNN, SFM, Tarmogoyf or Counterbalance compared to nasty things on Vintage's restricted list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Why the format jumped from 53% to 70% in these years? Delver, SFM, TNN, Terminus, Omniscience, TC, DTT, etc. aka all that easily splashable/playable nonsense WotC printed making decks without blue less appealing even if other colors also got drastic prowerlevel-jumps. That's the games business-model after all for Gods sake! I can't believe I have to point it out that it's normal that formats empower. Just look at Vintage now compared to in 2008.
You and others in this thread simply do not understand that in the hyper-effective triangle of Ponder+Brainstorm+ Fetchland, Brainstorm isn't the potential ban that solves the problem. I don't defend Brainstorm in this thread, I fight stupidity of only shifting the omnipresence of one cantrip to another like some smartasses in this thread did with Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time. Believe me: If you ban Brainstorm, Preordain or SDT just take it's place and decks adjust to that change (Miracles players move to UW Blade 4 example) but the surpremacy of Fetchlands + cantrips remains. Learn from TC and don't shift problems.
Not trying to kill the messenger here, but every time I hear this, I get angrier. People like non-rotating formats because there is a certain amount of predictability. Seeing people grow into experts with certain decks and how they change for expected metagames or identify new interactions is what we like. Modern's staleness was entirely because of the length of the banlist. With so little card movement or choice outside Pod, BGx goodstuff is just set up to dominate.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
That wasn't exactly our finest hour, but that's partially Jeff's fault for himself being temperamental (to put it kindly). What was funny is that I agreed with everything he had to say about Legacy but said that I didn't think modern was any better (because it basically had dueling dominating shells instead of one "flexible" one) and he belittled that argument. Modern is somewhat more tolerable now, but its power level is much lower than it was at its outset, which doesn't necessarily make for scintillating viewing.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I don't hate Brainstorm. I don't think anyone really does. Some people -- a growing but vocal minority of course -- dislike that in order to be seriously competitive in Legacy, you have to play Brainstorm and its buddies. Ponder has crossed the 65% mark, and I definitely feel that since I've bought into blue, I've found little reason not to play Ponder (let alone brainstorm and force).Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Not true. If that was the case, people would quit every time they play against Show & Tell. This is the best-case scenario I can think of:Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Turn 1: Land, Lotus Petal or some sort of Spirit Guide/Mox, resolve Survival.
Turn 2: LED, tap land to activate Survival, discarding Griselbrand, respond by cracking LED for WWW, search for Retainers, resolve retainers, activate retainers targeting Griselbrand.
That Christmas present is not something Legacy is set up to handle? It's not that different than what Tin Fins does now. And of course you don't have to whip out Griz t2 to use Survival in a fun way.
Would you--and anyone else who's in favor of a BS ban--have been in favor of banning BS in 2011 when it was at ~50% (trusting the number so I don't have to check; it sounds right), and would you have been in favor of banning it when/if (I can't remember when/if it was) at 40% or less? Honest question, and my response depends on what the answer is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
if i'm reading the article in question correctly the ban conditions are a lot less clear than you make it seem. firstly he says that the card got banned because "there are more blue decks than ever". in the article he never sets up an upper limit of what percentage of the format can be blue. without this condition the reasoning is just a general platitude that logically is vague and very odd. on this point I disagree with your description of his philosophy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
we need to come to grips with the fact that non blue decks have been becoming less viable in the format for a long time. so saying X is the reason Y isnt doing well seems to be intellectually disingenuous.
That's not necessarily true, and anyway, WotC tried to address this issue by dropping Modern as a PTQ/Pro Tour format. But community outcry stopped that, so a banhammer was needed to make sure that the decks at the pro tour looked different from the format pre-Khans.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Just to clarify, I think that Survival is worth a trial unban. I'm not sold on it being safe, but it's not crazy to think that it might be fine. And if you stop say, Survival into Loyal Retainers shenanigans and those shenanigans get stopped, you've still got Survival and a library of guys to find and win with, which is something that Show and Tell decks generally can't do. But my point is that unbanning Survival or Frantic Search is a lot different from unbanning Worldgorger Dragon. You know that Dragon isn't going to rock the world. But Survival? Frantic Search? You're less sure because both have proven too good by pretty standard mechanisms (in-hand tutorimg and mana acceleration). And the price of being wrong and unbanning something damaging is high, especially in a small format. I agree that a more active approach to unbannings would improve the format, but I definitely understand why WotC is very conservative about reintroducing potentially broken cards back into the format.Quote:
Not true. If that was the case, people would quit every time they play against Show & Tell. This is the best-case scenario I can think of:
Turn 1: Land, Lotus Petal or some sort of Spirit Guide/Mox, resolve Survival.
Turn 2: LED, tap land to activate Survival, discarding Griselbrand, respond by cracking LED for WWW, search for Retainers, resolve retainers, activate retainers targeting Griselbrand.
That Christmas present is not something Legacy is set up to handle? It's not that different than what Tin Fins does now. And of course you don't have to whip out Griz t2 to use Survival in a fun way.
I agree with being Brainstorm banned, people would likely just shift to Ponder and Preordain and switching stuff like Miracles to UW Blade (whether or not Miracles being gone is a good or bad thing is a different topic). I don't think that the majority of people who want Brainstorm banned also want the blue shell completely gone (you would need to kill any remotely playable cantrip for that), but knocking it down to a more reasonable level. Brainstorm is an easy target for that since it has a bunch of unique properties the other playable cantrips don't:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
a) Instant speed, b) being able to trade chaff for fresh cards and c) discard protection.
If you banned Ponder, people would just run Brainstorm + Preordain and literally nothing would change.
If you banned Brainstorm, people would just run Ponder + Preordain, but:
a) People now need to plan ahead their turns more instead of sitting on their ass with :u: until anything bad happens,
b) more mulligan decisions because you can't get rid of your chaff (which brings down blue to the level of other decks regarding that, leveling the playing field; yes, blue decks would lose consistency because of that, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing, since other colors don't have the ability to semi-mulligan for 1 mana, either; being able to get rid of unwanted chaff makes deckbuildung less rewarding, too, since there's much less risk compared to the reward when running very narrow cards. E.g. Sylvan Plug runs narrow cards like Choke in the MD, but there's a trade-off between raw power and being stuck with one or multiple dead card(s).)
c) discard becomes better
As for the TC vs DTT thing, while looking different on the surface (raw CA vs CA + selection, sorcery speed vs instant speed), they share the same core problems that make them stupid, unlike Brainstorm vs other cantrips (as explained above):
- being undercosted for what they do in Legacy because they can be easily fed with free fetches + Probes and other cheaps spells, especially cantrips
- your opponent is punished for interacting with you at all - it doesn't matter if it's removal, discard or counters, you inevitably feed the next Delve spell, putting you then at a disadvantage.
Hard to say - BS power level depends on the rest of the deck, and they've printed alot of stupid cards since then that either directly interact well Brainstorm (e.g. Miracles, Delver, Shardless Agent) or feed A+B combo which Brainstorm makes more consistent (Griselbee, Omniderp). While the unique properties mentioned above stay the same, I'd say its relative power has increased, thus being more bannable before. Survival was also okay before they printed Vengevine (and Ooze), with the danger of more stupid things to come on the horizon. We can never know when the next stupid mechanic comes around that rewards you for top cards on your library, either (Manifest luckily hasn't been broken - yet).Quote:
Originally Posted by LOLWut
How would you interpret it then?Quote:
Originally Posted by jmonk
- first ban card because it makes the format too blue
- other card hits the same percentage or even succeeds it, but this time nothing happens
The reasoning becomes flawed and inconsequent with that.
Frantic Search with Dig Through Time around seems very dangerous. Otherwise, it might be okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
If you can have a solid shot (to the point it shows up in actual results and not just people saying a deck is okay) with nonblue decks and other varied selection/draw engines, I'm fine with keeping them. I do think Brainstorm is a dumb card and eg. Ponder, Preordain are better skill testers because there's an actual commitment to playing them especially in the early turns, and they leave tools like discard stronger for it and encourage thinking if cards are castable (because they don't allow you to throw clunk back at a trivial cost). I have to pay attention to what dumb clunkers I play in nonblue decks because I can't get rid of them. I'm fine with blue having the ability, but I'd like it to be an investment to do so, not a matter of course of playing the best no-investment card selection spell in the game anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by LOLWut
I've never, ever wanted blue cantrips out of the format completely - I just want enough of them axed that you have to think what card selection engine you want and in what colors. I just don't want to see the cantrip cartel in every damn deck all the damn time. I want to see some people cantrip, others use some 2cc options because they need specialized functionality, some people use graveyard recursion engines or Elves/Shardless style mass draw, and so on. I think something needs to be axed to get to that, but as little as possible should be axed to get to that. Barring stupid S&T targets, those I want to go postal on.
It's potentially (but not obviously) broken in other ways too. That was my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Elves and Lands (Combo build) are two non Blue decks with powerful draw engine that win. I would agree that they rotate in and out of the Meta, but they win. Also if there was not a card that cost a grand that you needed for Lands I would bet good money it would see a ton more play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Does anybody think the meta is likely to reverse the trend towards the blue shell at this point barring any bannings?
I'm just curious under what circumstances people think that the number of lists playing Brainstorm would realistically decline at this point?
Secondary point to this would be that whether you think the meta will be 3% less blue shell or 7% less blue shell in 6 months due to some unforseen shift, the odds on it not being 3% more blue than it is currently or 7% more blue that it is currently a year down the road are fairly low. It's gone up about 3% a year over the last 5 years. What exactly is going to stop us from getting to the point that 85% of all lists are blue shell and the other 15% are dedicated anti-blue shell?
I often see this thrown around a lot, so I have got to ask. While I have no doubt that not having a Tabernacle makes your build not optimal, how necessary is that card to the overall strategy? My point being, if Lands is powerful enough to be widely played, wouldn't we see lists that are slightly sub-optimal due to price constraints? Is Tabernacle that much of a cornerstone to the deck? I am not a Lands player, so I do apologize for the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
On topic, I cannot really see how this metagame would reverse it's trajectory. Maybe with some serious unbannings? But even so, many of those cards will simply fit into a cantrip shell.
I would interpret the quote to mean that the format got [B]too [/Blue too fast. before this era we had a lot of non blue decks that could compete with blue decks. when mental misstep was printed however it obsoleted those decks in a few weeks. we haven't seen a large resurgence of non blue decks since that era. when we look at the larger ban framework time and circularity is an important factor. it seems like wotc thinks that this is just a phase of the formatQuote:
Originally Posted by Barook
What could they reallistically unban to dent the cantrip shell? At least without the format going to hell.Quote:
Originally Posted by HrishiQQ
Unless they print something that makes the cantrip shell alot less appealing, I can't see the trend of more and more people running the blue shell stopping.
black vise might do itQuote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I'd argue that Library is a more powerful card than either BS or Ponder overall. However costing 2 mana and having to wait a turn for its effect to take place makes it just not a feasible option a lot of the time in legacy. Also in multiples it gets real bad so you are not as likely to want to run more than 2 and MAYBE 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
I'd agree that Sylvan Library is more powerful than Ponder in a vaccum but not that it's more powerful than Brainstorm. Cost, timing, immediate return and utility have to be part of the conversation and Brainstorm is cheaper, easier to use, more likely to resolve successfully and has a wider range of utility than Sylvan Library.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
If Legacy had a weakened cantrip shell it's very possible that Sylvan Library would become one of the best and most widely played card selection tools in the format instead of a 1 or 2-of in most lists that use it. It's true that it is weaker in multiples but assuming it doesn't land too late in the match it's a very powerful effect and one that you'd really like to get into play against many lists.
You're absolutely on target that waiting until turn 3 for Sylvan Library to actually do something makes it not feasible as an engine card at this point except in extremely narrow lists that have no other realistic options. It's good as an alternative option that doesn't kill you if you don't draw it in some other lists. There are no lists in the meta that rely on resolving a Sylvan Library most of the time to make the game plan effective. That's because there are no lists that can reliably guarantee seeing it early in a game.
It's how you beat tribal and creatures with protectionQuote:
Originally Posted by HrishiQQ
I would say about 60-70% of the time you'll be fine without it, then you'll play against rug with a turn 1 mongoose, or a vial deck that manages to swarm you (merfolk, goblins and every so often d&t draws all of its Serra avengers) and you'll wish you had it
Frantic Search with Dig through Time seems very saucy. As broken as I think Search is, SnT has to be more broken. In a vacuum, a blender, or in a chocolate cake, SnT>Frantic Search.
You've obviously never played with Frantic Search in Storm shells, then. The free mana is the most potent part of that card. Add in the fact that it's three mana towards DTT and you have a hell of a shell to build around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanti
I can see one important point why blue cantrip shell is so powerful - thanks to DTT most of those deck get CA, which wasn't before (Treasure Cruise was obv more broken), but that's not the point.
There are many slower decks which can easy win vs those cantriping tempo decks, but there is one type of decks which hold them - S&T variations. You almost can't fight them without stack control. Show & Tell targets are just too powerful:
- Omniscience
- Griselbrand
Those target's just overlap any option, without stopping S&T you mostly loses.
Other combo decks can be answer with permanent hate like hatebear, graveyard hate or removal - I mean mostly storm, gy based combos, even old Sneak & Show could be stopped by Needle + Karakas.
This mean slower, non-blue decks mostly autolose, so they can't go 9-0 without facing some autopiloted version of Omnisience, this mean only blue based heavy cantrip deck can competed on long range (sure you can win - but you need luck).
Remember years when Zoo / CB-Bant was dominating and tempo decks was almost non-existence, everything changes after printing few cards:
- 1 Mana - Wrath of God
- 1 Mana blue flying Nacatl
- Baragain on legs, then Omniscience
Those prints just cut of completely all archetype which keeps in check tempo blue decks. Why I should pick worst deck which loses vs Omnisience ?
Nail in the coffin was printing Blue (why ?!) Progenitus for 3.
So simple to resolve cantrip cartel - instead of banning each of them just resolve problems which hold other archetypes to compete:
- Terminus
- Delver of Secrets
- Omniscience / Griselbrand
- True-Name Nemesis
format again will be much opened and we will see big changes like Tribals, Zoo, Jund, Eva Green, Stompies, Stax and much more.
This man gets it. I've been making this exact argument on and off for some time, but it's usually ignored with "but that won't solve the Brainstorm problem" or something similar. People forget that only 4-5 years ago the format was only 50% blue and much healthier as well. Show and Tell combo is a huge offender here simply because it dodges most hate against the traditional combo pillars (stack-based engine combo and graveyard combo), while the effect that Terminus has had on aggressive decks is obvious. I believe if all the cards you listed were banned tomorrow (after an initial couple months of crying and chaos) we would have a much more diverse, fun, and skill-testing Legacy format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
For me this is the Vengevine-Fallacy. The format does not get any better if you keep S&T around and just have to wait for the next dumb fatty with Return to Zendikar coming and Emrakul legal. It would also not "solve" the issues of outdated Aggro types with Miracles. It is not much of a difference if you Terminus the board or create 4/4 "chumpblockers". We've seen 0 Terminus and 3-4 Entreats as a working concept before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
You are reverting the format back to where it was maybe three years ago and hope that the inevitable powercreep does not strike it again. Ain't working for long
No he doesn't. There's a reason Survival was banned, rather than creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
Besides: Blue being the de-facto BEST color is NOT a problem. The format is healthy, with a large difference in archetypes, which is what matters.
Dear @LemnearQuote:
For me this is the Vengevine-Fallacy. The format does not get any better if you keep S&T around and just have to wait for the next dumb fatty with Return to Zendikar coming and Emrakul legal. It would also not "solve" the issues of outdated Aggro types with Miracles. It is not much of a difference if you Terminus the board or create 4/4 "chumpblockers". We've seen 0 Terminus and 3-4 Entreats as a working concept before.
You are reverting the format back to where it was maybe three years ago and hope that the inevitable powercreep does not strike it again. Ain't working for long
- I don't reverting the format back. I don't negate Deathrite Shaman or Abrupt Decay they are great, Red Hatebear - check, Black useful Sweeper - check, red "tarmogoyf" - check and many other useful cards printed last years. I just point cards which hold format in stagnation.
Everytime WotC printing overcosted Creature which in T2 has oracle "you win the game" I always think which impact it has on legacy and how to fight it. It's fun as long you found at the end solution which can give you advantage. There is a problem with Omnisience and Griselbrand - solution doesn't exist. Funny fact - before Omniscience I found that best answer will be ... Emrakul in hand, it also give edge vs Grindstone combo - it answer vs Griselbrand, and Emrakul (after legend rule changes even more).
Terminus cost W, EtA cost XWW so 3 mana is needed just to take effect - its big big difference - if you think it's the same try to fight any tempo/aggro deck with 4 EtA instead of Terminus and you get why it was only concept, at the end look how easy tokens can be took down vs how hard fight Terminus without stack control - read blue.
TNN isn't really a problem as it is annoying, sure it with equipment is obnoxious but hardly oppressive, and banning terminus won't change th fact zoo and goblins cannot beat jitte or batterskull, zoo can race a terminus (via burn and cost efficient creatures) and goblins has plenty of card advantage, neither can effectively deal with an online batterskull or jitte.
Also, in banning delver, you basically take away one of miracles best MUs, why play jund or shardless when bug delver does something similar but also gets daze and a 3/2 flier, with no delver, barring an unforeseen archetype, jund and shardless are suddenly much more attractive options, both are strong tap out decks that have strong haymakers, jund being the more powerful deck and shardless being more consistent
I also feel in that list, you'd have to ban something from elves, as there is no reason I can think of to not play elves in a world with no terminus, no delver decks to randomly beat you, no show and tell to drop turn 2 griselbrand, all the fair decks basically don't do anything to you, sure combo bears you but I'm pretty sure you are favored against 70% of the format
Course banning delver would mean no more rug but that is a fair trade off
I still feel that Omniscience would edge out any High Tide deck with Frantic Search in it, or at least be on par with it. My point is why am I spending 3 mana on a spell in a combo deck if it isn't called Show and Tell? And playing FS in a non-High Tide deck doesn't seem the best, as it's card disadvantage. I'd probably rather cast a Ponder, or just an actual spell there, even though it's feeding your graveyard for countless shenanigans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
This won't work though. It's the cantrip cartel that is powerful. It's ability to find cards and resolve land issues early is completely unparalleled by any other effect in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
The consistent list everybody hated in 2009 was RUG Canadian. The difference between 2009 and now is that almost every Legacy contender is using the cantrip cartel and has the same dominating consistency that RUG Canadian had back in the day. This is also why RUG Canadian is so much weaker now than it was back then despite the addition of Delver of Secrets. Lots of other lists got Delver of Secrets also but everybody decided the 8+ cantrip plan was the way to go and RUG's consistency is no longer dominant in and of itself.
Brainstorm and Ponder. Get rid of those and leave everything else as it is. It's worth the look.
It won't work, and besides: you're describing Modern.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
If Hasbro ever wanted to kill Legacy, this would be the way to do it. My guess is that more than half the player base would instantly rage quit.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Why is this thread the most active on this website? It is disturbing. I wonder if some of the most active posters ever have time to play the format.