Hey guys, ain't Fact or Fiction banned in Legacy? Yet I see it in so many decklists in these threads.
Hell I have 4 too but yesterday someone informed me it was banned.
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Hey guys, ain't Fact or Fiction banned in Legacy? Yet I see it in so many decklists in these threads.
Hell I have 4 too but yesterday someone informed me it was banned.
It's restricted in Vintage, it's legal in Legacy.
Yeah during multiplayer games, I've had several nonlegacy players tell me Fact or Fiction is restricted as well.
When I tell them that it's only restricted in Vintage, but is perfectly legal as a 4x of in Legacy, they usually don't believe me until I find another legacy player that can confirm this fact.
People still think vintage and legacy are the same for some reason.
I don't see how i can live without Fact or Fiction.
Best blue uncommon behind Force of Will.
Since when became google.com old fashioned. Seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by P-AiR
And no, FoF is not the second best blue uncommon: Counterbalance and Ponder are better. And maybe even Thirst for Knowledge, at least that is my opinion.
Do you perchance have a list or anything you could share. I would very interested in building a variant to this deck that's basically Monoblue Dreadstill and plays Dreadnought + Stifle, and may 2 Sowers along with the usual suspects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordel
I just came back from Mol. 58 people attended.
I went 4-0-2 in the Swiss and lost to it's the fear in quarter finals.
Was the funniest match i ever did (most boring too).
I won the first round so hard.
Then went to the second round. After 1 hour playing that, he nearly milled (and more than 60% of his deck crypted), he managed to topdeck a deed and blow away my morphling :(
1-1 and having the flu and knowing i had to drive 200km back through the snow, i couldn't really take it anymore and gave the game away.
But meh was fun and am kind off pleased with the deck, just not witht he sideboard yet.
Kadaj -
What are your thoughts on trimming the counter suite down to 8 (4 Counterspell, 4 Force of Will)? Maybe upping the Shackle count, and then throwing in some other maindeck permanent control or draw mechanism?
I was thinking something like this (for a slower meta)
24 Island
1 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet
2 Jace Beleren
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Back to Basics
4 Powder Keg
4 Vedalken Shackles
4 Propaganda
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
For a slower meta I would lose the Propagandas as well (unless you expect at least some Goblins and/or Goyf Sligh), but that's beside the point. I've been toying with the idea of removing the undefined "extra counterspell" slot for a while now, whether for more Shackles or Sower of Temptation. Something to that effect at least. I think Jace could certainly be interesting in a slower metagame, and I definitely think removing those extra counterspells is a valid way to look at this build of the deck.
So, I've been testing this deck a little bit lately.
I notice a lack of kill conditions that are both resilient and capable of ending the game quickly.
You'll laugh, but has anyone tested Call the Skybreaker? It's big, it's evasive, and you can cast it again and again. It's expensive, but not realistically that much more expensive than Morphling, and you don't have to worry about counters and Wrath effects the same way. And you don't have to pump mana into it turn after turn to make it efficient.
My preliminary testing also reveals that you're tremendously dependent on Shackles and should play 4 because what the fuck do you do against creature decks if you don't draw that? Die that's what. You fucking roll over and die.
Also, that Disk is good. Functionally, is Keg actually faster against anything other than EtW tokens, for a lot less versatility?
Here's a list I've mucked around with a bit. It plays pretty solid. Some of the card choices may seem eccentric, but I think they interact well with each other. "Sustainability" is a big part of what gives this build a strong late game; almost a third of the deck can be reused late game. More if you counter Capsize + Disk interactions.
// Lands
23 [10E] Island (3)
// Spells
2 [TE] Capsize
4 [U] Nevinyrral's Disk
4 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [IA] Counterspell
2 [TSP] Spell Burst
4 [TSP] Think Twice
4 [TE] Whispers of the Muse
3 [EVE] Call the Skybreaker
3 [FNM] Force Spike
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FD] Razormane Masticore
SB: 4 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
I like this list.
I would cut force spikes for one forbid (you can discard and use again many cards) and a couple of echoing truth or repeal help to survive in early game.
The list is quite unconventional, to say the least (not that it's a bad thing by itself). The main apparent problem is your total lack of early or midgame. You have nothing (nothing) going on for like the first FOUR turns, except hopefully countering and thinking twice. The first time you can actually do something onboard is by turn four, activating Shackles (and that's your only way of impacting the board at that point, you need to wait another turn for Disk activation). That's insane. As you noticed, you have nothing going on against any deck that starts off strongly, except for the counters ("roll over and die"). And to be fair, a lot of your concerns with the deck can be directly related to these card choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
-Propaganda and B2B are 4x MB. As said numerous times, B2B is the major reason to play this deck in the first place. It's a major pain in the ass for like 80 % decks out there. This is typically a card that you may sometimes want to side out, not the other way around. Same thing for Propaganda. Plus the two cards have good synergy. Finally, those get active a full turn sooner than Shackles (your fastest card until now).
On what to remove from the list to free slots, I'd say get rid of the Capsizes. As a wincon, they cost 6 a turn. And actually they still don't win the game. By comparison, spending a few mana on Morphling doesn't seem that expensive now, heh ?
This should help a lot against everything, and especially aggro decks.
-You might then remove the Disks and replace them with Keg, point of these being that they keep your game-breaking enchantments on the table.
-You lack wincons, as you said. CtS has been talked about, and it probably warrants testing. Still, you need a bit more wincons (and make it diverse). Morphling is a very good friend (the best actually). You should seriously consider adding at least two.
-Finally, you lack an actual draw engine. You might want to go either for the AV/FoF (or Brainstorm/FoF combination, depending on preferences in termes of build). Seriously, WotM/Think Twice are baaaad. How much mana do you have to throw out of the window to get as much CA with those cards as by simply casting FoF ?
Quote:
// Lands
23 [10E] Island (3)
// Spells
2 [TE] Capsize
4 [u] Nevinyrral's Disk
4 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [IA] Counterspell
2 [TSP] Spell Burst
4 [TSP] Think Twice
4 [TE] Whispers of the Muse
3 [EVE] Call the Skybreaker
3 [FNM] Force Spike
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FD] Razormane Masticore
SB: 4 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
You are playing draw/go, so some of the suggestions you will be receiving from other players will be based upon their experience with permanent-based MUC. As such, their advice may or may not be as meaningful.
1.) Disk rocks. Few here test it enough. I'm glad to see you playing it.
2.) We are dependent on shackles (K-Grip sucks for us), but if you improved your card drawing, then you'll find that 3 is also acceptable.
3.) B2B is a great card, and it belongs as a 4x somewhere in those 75. Despite what I've heard from other players, the archetype is still quite viable even with B2B in the sideboard. Several would disagree, but then again, few here have actually sat down and played with Disk.
4.) Capsize should never be more than a 1x in the deck. I'm one of the few who plays bounce, and the other bounce slots should be Echoing Truth if you play bounce.
5.) 4x FoF is a must. Whispers is far too mana intensive, and Think Twice should be brainstorm or impulse in your deck.
For reference, here is my list of draw/go:
Quote:
CQ/CA: 10
4x Brainstorm
2x Impulse
4x Fact or Fiction
Permission: 16
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
4x Mana Leak
4x Force Spike
Board Control: 8
2x Echoing Truth
3x Vedalken Shackles
3x Nevi's Disk (like deed, a completely underestimated card--and it isn't slow in a deck designed to use to it properly)
Win-Stuff: 2
2x Meloku
Mana-Base: 24
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
14x Island
4x Mishra's Factory
peace,
4eak
Your list seems interesting; I play "permanent-based" (I hate that term) Mono-Blue, so I guess my comments might not make sense to some (?):Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
I completely agree 4x Shackles is awesome. I'm rarely upset to see one (except in the mirror match, BLAH) and in multiples the card is awesome.
Like 4eak and ParkerLewis said, Fact or Fiction is a must-play. The card is ridiculous and gains you so much, especially in comparison to Whispers of the Muse or Think Twice. I am anti-Brainstorm (for several reasons I listed earlier on this thread) so I would recommend Fact or Fiction and Impulse (Impulse is good here considering you are only running 23 land).
Also, I have tried Call the Skybreaker and it is very good especially against control decks. However, going with my previous point, it is amazingly better with Fact or Fiction. Also, I think it should be played as a 1-of and the other two wins should be Morphling (cause it wins games) and/or Rainbow Efreet (cause it wins games and dances around Disk). Plus, splitting the win conditions like that means you won't cry to a well-targeted Extirpate.
I find Spell Burst intriguing as it will be a late-game powerhouse, but how good is it in the early game? What do you do when you see it in your opening hand? I think I would be very annoyed seeing it any time before turn 6 or 7.
Capsize + Disk is also pretty sweet but it costs 7 mana every other turn for the "combo" to get going. Wouldn't just winning be better? I'm not saying Capsize is bad, but I think Echoing Truth would be better, especially considering you are playing Disk over Powder Keg (bounce those tokens!!). Maybe for your Disk reanimation shenanigans, you could cut a Spell Burst or Force Spike and add 1 Academy Ruins (yes it sucks under Back to Basics, doesn't tap for blue and it goes away to Wasteland but it is still awesome even if it does only get to bring back a Disk or Shackles once).
Finally, I do think Back to Basics should be played in the main deck, but not necessarily Propaganda. Propaganda is great against many decks but those decks also will fold to Shackles. Back to Basics, on the other hand, hits just as many decks (if not more) and either cripples your opponent until you have too big an advantage or redirects the Krosan Grip away from your Shackles. In either case, I truly do feel Back to Basics is the MVP of Mono-Blue. (maybe put in place of Force Spike? or Spell Burst...)
I was curious; since you are running Factory, what is your reasoning behind not running Standstill? It seems better than Impulse, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eak
My problem with running cards like B2B and Propaganda main, although I concede the power of B2B especially, is that then I have to start justifying running Powder Keg over Disk.
And Powder Keg is terrible against everything but EtW and Raffinity. And in the latter case it still has a narrow application.
Like, yes, you're correct in this; if, despite the presence of Sixteen counterspells, my opponent resolves a really fast, aggressive hand that Disk can't solve coming down turn 4, I'm fucked. I'm also fucked if ball lightning (the phenomenon, not the card) rolls into the tournament hall where I'm playing, jolts me for a few million volts and then leaves my smoking carcass and a round win for my opponent. I don't plan for these eventualities, except to avoid playing outside in thunderstorms with an antenna hat.
Sixteen counters. Some threats are supposed to resolve before Disk comes down; that's the point of Disk. Disk gets blown, then assume control. Shackles is obviously also a huge part of that.
The draw suite is debatable, but my current selection lets me dig early on and then provides a lot of draw late game when I'm swimming in mana and don't really care anymore. FoF sits in my hand early on when I'm trying to dig into Shackles or Disk and don't yet care as much about card advantage.
Capsize in particular might be an indulgence, though. Although I'd rather have Repeal than Echoing Truth in that slot; I haven't noticed EtW to be that prevalent lately.
I guess the best argument for Propaganda maindeck is Ichorid. But that seems to be the only reason.
Spell Burst starts to be reasonably powerful around turn 3-4. Even on turn 3, people are still casting a lot in the 2cc slot. So it's your worst counter early on, but it's not strictly a late game card.
Powder Keg is amazing because it can blow up the tokens (Empty the Warrens or Bridge from Below or in the extremely rare and stupid case Sky Hussar tokens) and Mongoose - I rarely have it set above 1 (there was the one mirror match I was losing and decided to have Keg at 5 for Morphling), but that's not the point I want to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
What I want to say is you can run B2B and Disk. With B2B down, you blow up Disk on the opponent's turn (which is what I assume you do most of the time anyways unless you are fearing Krosan Grip) and then on your next turn cast B2B again. That will not happen infrequently unless you are really struggling in the early-mid game. I have done this quite often in a similar manner with Powder Keg against Landstill. They get an Engineered Explosives for 3 while I have a Powder Keg for 0 on the table. End of their turn, I force the opponent to use EE by blowing up my Keg. On my turn, play B2B again and win. With Disk, B2B can work, and I suggest it because it is a bomb.
...and I'm pretty sure I said I am not a fan of Propaganda in the main deck, especially with 4x Shackles and 4x Disk to wipe the board. If you run Echoing Truth too, it would bounce all the tokens (Empty the Warrens, Bridge from Below, Sky Hussar, etc.) or even all the Ichorids annoyingly swinging at your face (blasted Ichorid recurring every turn...)
I was replying to three different people at once, Jason.
B2B might be worth running main. It's certainly a powerhouse in some matchups.
But I certainly can't agree with Keg over Disk. Keg can't deal with 2cc threats effectively, much less 3 or 4. Even leaving aside the Enchantress issue.
B2B IS worth running in the main. As a four of. It's so powerful against just about anything (except other MUC, haha) that the fact that two of them are dead is almost completely irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
The primary reason I don't like Disk is simply that it's too slow and too vulnerable against decks like Dreadstill and Thresh. Even with 16 counterspells, of which Spell Burst is total garbage because if it ever becomes good you should've either already won or be winning, Dreadstill can still force down a Dreadnaught, and then you essentially lose. Disk is simply too slow in that matchup. Threshold is very good at keeping Disk off the board as well, and its well documented that Disk is too slow against Goblins.
I do agree that Powder Keg is becoming weaker and weaker, but by the same token its effectiveness against Dreadnaughts and Nimble Mongeese has convinced me to keep it in the main for at least a little longer. That and its effectiveness against Man-lands, which was apparent from the start.
It's also not great against combo, Ichorid, Dreadstill, Sui-variants, Quinn, and random one-or-two color decks, which one encounters in Legacy tournaments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadaj
2cc is the most common CC in Legacy. You can use Spell Burst to counter 2cc turns at turn 3, at turn 6 with buyback.Quote:
The primary reason I don't like Disk is simply that it's too slow and too vulnerable against decks like Dreadstill and Thresh. Even with 16 counterspells, of which Spell Burst is total garbage because if it ever becomes good you should've either already won or be winning,
You're lucky to win with this deck on turn 10.
If you're saying that you should've already won by the time Spell Burst comes online with mono blue control, you're simply not interested in having an honest conversation.
If we operate under the assumption that 16 counterspells aren't enough to prevent bad scenarios from happening most of the time, then there's no reason to play mono blue control at all, and you should just play Mighty Quinn or Truffle Shuffle or It's The Fear or Landstill. Every other control deck has better board control elements than you, whether you run Keg or Disk or both. The assumption made in playing MUC is that your counterspells will be good.Quote:
Dreadstill can still force down a Dreadnaught, and then you essentially lose.
"It's well documented"? What does that even mean? Are we still assuming that your counterspells don't work, or what?Quote:
Disk is simply too slow in that matchup. Threshold is very good at keeping Disk off the board as well, and its well documented that Disk is too slow against Goblins.
I do agree that Powder Keg is becoming weaker and weaker, but by the same token its effectiveness against Dreadnaughts and Nimble Mongeese has convinced me to keep it in the main for at least a little longer. That and its effectiveness against Man-lands, which was apparent from the start.
Disk is fantastic against Goblins except when they're too fast. This is what counters prevent.
Dreadnought is the only real argument here for Keg, which is a two card combo that's easily counterable.
Conversely, I don't know if you really want sacrifice in the activation cost of your answer to a deck that runs 6+ Stifle effects.