[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

I didn't play too much, but i finally got some testing done during the last week. I tinkered around a little bit and found the following: Even eithout Dread Return you have the power to take home most of the g1s. And since postboard many decks pack gravehate it is even harder to resolve. So i cut the number down to 2 and left Hypnotist +4 Trolls as the targets. (1 Chosen in the sb)

Here is the list and it works like a charm =).

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe

2 Dread Return
1 Sadistic Hypnotist

4 Careful study
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

SB:
4 Wispmare
4 Ancient grudge
1 Ancestors Chosen
2 Null Rod
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm






I just wanna fit in the last Tribe and mb change a Coliseum for another land (most likely 2nd Paradise)

@sunshine: Congrats on the finish ! I'm not sure I would have kept four Mine and two Dredgers though, even against Landstill...


Wonder + Witness for Sea is pretty nice tech, almost makes me want to play Dread Return :wink:



A general question: I haven't seen Gargadon in one of the last lists...is there any reason for it being worse here than in the LED version ? I'm not sold on him myself, but he's definitely interesting...


EDIT: Another question...how do you board against Imperial Painter ? It's got a turn three or four combo win, making me want to side in Unmasks (and LEDs) and go for fast wins, but also plays virtually 2-6 Crypts with Trinket Mages, making me want to go for slow dredging and Gargadons, plus I also want Firestorms for Welder + Servant...and I obviously can't board all of that stuff.

You got basically my list. The difference is
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Hypnotist
+1 Land
+1 Tribe

I found the same in testing, basically that Dread Return Creatures suck and that Troll is fat enough to to the duty as a reaniamtor target on his own while he is our best dredger at the same time as well.

Did you test your sideboard as well or not? What do you think about Gargadon VS Needle VS Grudge, which one is the best?

In general I got problems to SB with the LED-less version. I don't want to pack Leyline hate because nobody plays it anyway. So I simply never know what to take out if I don't have any big creatures or spare Dread Returns to board out.

4 Firestorm
4 Needle / Gargadon / Grudge
4 Duress / Thoughtseize / Unmask
1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Ray of Revelation

This is what I am running at the moment. Is this and which of the named cards are the better choice in your oppinion?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Muradin

You got basically my list. The difference is
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Hypnotist
+1 Land
+1 Tribe

I found the same in testing, basically that Dread Return Creatures suck and that Troll is fat enough to to the duty as a reaniamtor target on his own while he is our best dredger at the same time as well.

Did you test your sideboard as well or not? What do you think about Gargadon VS Needle VS Grudge, which one is the best?

In general I got problems to SB with the LED-less version. I don't want to pack Leyline hate because nobody plays it anyway. So I simply never know what to take out if I don't have any big creatures or spare Dread Returns to board out.

4 Firestorm
4 Needle / Gargadon / Grudge
4 Duress / Thoughtseize / Unmask
1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Ray of Revelation

This is what I am running at the moment. Is this and which of the named cards are the better choice in your oppinion?

---

I almost always board out some number of Breakthroughs in game 2, because you really never want to play them when facing hate. A Thug also comes out usually.

Ancient Grudge is INCREDIBLE, definitely much better than the other two options. I'm also partial to Wispmare for Enchantment removal because it dodges CB better, can make Zombie tokens, and can be recurred with Golgari Thugs. But the Flashback of Ray is really incredible.

I haven't really thought of running discard in the board though. Sunshine (or anyone, really), how did the Duresses work out for you?

My board is:
4 Grudge
4 Firestorm
2 Ray
2 Wispmare
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestor's Chosen

Edit: Thoughts on Riftstone Portal as a sideboard card? Probably terrible, huh?

Discard is amazing for us in the right meta and in an LED-less version I would certainly opt for Duress/Thoughtseize over Unmask. My board has a few fixed slots and the rest are very dependent on what I expect to face. I was predicting something in the ballpark of 10% combo and 15% landstill variants. Obviously Duress comes in against combo and will likely be a consideration for landstill if it goes to game three (or if I feel like my landstill oponent is bringing in a lot of hate). It did it's job for me in the tourney and I was glad to have it though in other metas it will not make the cut.

Edit: @georgjorge
The hand is definitely sub par, however I noticed that he did not side very many cards in (it was two or three) so I had a couple options. I could get to eight cards and go DDD or play out my creatures, depending on the next two cards that I drew. I didn't really want to mulll lower than six since it would be likely that I'd be relying on a single discard outlet to resolve. Turns out that he didn't have FoW+Blue Card but I felt that walking into a FoW and being stuck with only three cads in hand would have been a worse situation than just going for DDD with that six and keeping the off chance that I draw into a discard outlet (I was playing 12 of them, 16 if you count Therapy) or just more aggro. Going with an aggro plan is surprisingly viable when killing your creatures means giving you dredgers in the yard.

Have we decided on an optimized, or at least mostly, list? I thought there was one a while ago, but it might be dated.

EDIT: This might sound crazy, but could StP ever make it into a list, or sideboard?

@Gargadon:
Maybe I'm just to stupid to use him, but he can only shine ivs control, when you have the time to feed him. I play in an aggro infested meta, so for me he is basically out of the question, but im not sure if i would run him even with more control around.


Vs Painter i'd put in all available Grudges/Needles/Rods/Discard. Since they can race you they might not mulligan a Hand with the kill but no disruption.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Muradin

You got basically my list. The difference is


Did you test your sideboard as well or not? What do you think about Gargadon VS Needle VS Grudge, which one is the best?

In general I got problems to SB with the LED-less version. I don't want to pack Leyline hate because nobody plays it anyway. So I simply never know what to take out if I don't have any big creatures or spare Dread Returns to board out.

4 Firestorm
4 Needle / Gargadon / Grudge
4 Duress / Thoughtseize / Unmask
1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Ray of Revelation

This is what I am running at the moment. Is this and which of the named cards are the better choice in your oppinion?

---

I'm not sure about the SB yet, but the Grudges will stay, they are probably the best anti hate out there. When you are in slow dredge mode and flip one of em during the first dredge you opponent will have to blow the Crypt and this is what we want to accomplish, make them use their hate without us loosing too much important cards.

The 4 Wispmare + CoV will stay, i want some stuff against Leyline, even if it is underplayed right now, i hate loosing to cards that randomly show up.

The Null Rods will leave, they are amazing, but they are very situational since they cost two which you will not always have, i might replace em with Needles.

I didn't test Discard yet, so I can't say too much about it, but i'd probably go with Duress.

3 Firestorm are more or less set, they do their job well, so I'll keep em.

My boarding is almost the same as Jaynel's, I usually board out all Breakthroughs, then if needed the Thug and Hypnotist+DR if they are not handy.



@Riftstoneportal: Meh, don't like it, it might be nice to swap in but i think the SB space is to precious to fill it with manafix.


@Swords: Against what? Most stuff is already covered and swords doesn't really solve anything else.



I think it will be hard to make a "Basic List". It is kinda common that you see 40+ cards during each game, so even 1ofs will show up in more than half of your games, so every slot has to be picked carefully.

I plan to play with the following list:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Dread Return
1 River Kelpie
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Firestorm
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Unmask
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation

I will probably cut the River Kelpie for Cephalid Sage or Eternal Witness. It is inferior to the Sage. (What are people's thoughts on Sage vs Witness?)

Sideboarding: What do you take out?
I often find myself removing the entire reanimation package (Dread Return, FKZ and Kelpie) when speed isn't needed (it also explains why I run Ray over Wispmare). Is that wrong?

Has anyone tried playing Stifle in the Pithing Needle slots ? It protects against both Relic and Crypt (plus random stuff like Loaming Shaman), but where Needle needs to be played before you've started dredging, Stifle needs to be played afterwards. Which might make it a bit more risky since you might overextend and then run into a Force on your Stifle, or spot discard, but on the other hand it allows you to use Therapies to get their counters first...

Grudge is fine, but I'm having problems against decks packing Wasteland where I often can't get up to two mana and play Grudge before dredging, and flashbacking a dredged Grudge just to force a Crypt activation isn't always the best play since I need to get maximum use out of my mana.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by georgjorge

Has anyone tried playing Stifle in the Pithing Needle slots ? It protects against both Relic and Crypt (plus random stuff like Loaming Shaman), but where Needle needs to be played before you've started dredging, Stifle needs to be played afterwards. Which might make it a bit more risky since you might overextend and then run into a Force on your Stifle, or spot discard, but on the other hand it allows you to use Therapies to get their counters first...

Grudge is fine, but I'm having problems against decks packing Wasteland where I often can't get up to two mana and play Grudge before dredging, and flashbacking a dredged Grudge just to force a Crypt activation isn't always the best play since I need to get maximum use out of my mana.

---

I think Thoughtseize or Duress in the board would be stronger, especially for game 2. The decks packing multiple Wastes (I'm guessing you mean Merfolk and Goblins for the most part) don't have library manipulation, so if they're banking on the Relic/Crypt in their opening 7 to get there, discard can be useful in ruining their day. Especially since many opponents will over-evaluate their hands based on having disruption, getting rid of the hate will often leave them with a rather poor hand.

Stifle, however, is also helpful against Wasteland. So maybe it is something to consider...?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaynel

I think Thoughtseize or Duress in the board would be stronger, especially for game 2. The decks packing multiple Wastes (I'm guessing you mean Merfolk and Goblins for the most part) don't have library manipulation, so if they're banking on the Relic/Crypt in their opening 7 to get there, discard can be useful in ruining their day. Especially since many opponents will over-evaluate their hands based on having disruption, getting rid of the hate will often leave them with a rather poor hand.

Stifle, however, is also helpful against Wasteland. So maybe it is something to consider...?

---

Ive been toying with riftstone portal in the deck so them wastelanding everything but my coliseums no longer stops me from being able to cast a flashbacked grudge or even tribe/wispmare/ray. In most cases, getting around crypt(which actually sees a ton less play than relic) and relic is usually handled by an early imp/tribe. Unless you get screwed and lose all your win cons(all returns, ichorids, bridges) before you can use them, you should be forcing them to pop their hate and reset your grave. Amazingly in play I only scooped to hate once(crypt, relic, and academy ruins on the board) other times I have been able to fight through it.

Im trying 2 ghastly demise in the board along with 1 darkblast for the RI tourney(if I play this deck). Demise can nail goyf fairly easy (managing killing him with a firestorm is really tricky) and blast can handle lavamancer and teeg etc. I know there is a ton of zoo/ sligh there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Joe_C

Ive been toying with riftstone portal in the deck so them wastelanding everything but my coliseums no longer stops me from being able to cast a flashbacked grudge or even tribe/wispmare/ray. In most cases, getting around crypt(which actually sees a ton less play than relic) and relic is usually handled by an early imp/tribe. Unless you get screwed and lose all your win cons(all returns, ichorids, bridges) before you can use them, you should be forcing them to pop their hate and reset your grave. Amazingly in play I only scooped to hate once(crypt, relic, and academy ruins on the board) other times I have been able to fight through it.

Im trying 2 ghastly demise in the board along with 1 darkblast for the RI tourney(if I play this deck). Demise can nail goyf fairly easy (managing killing him with a firestorm is really tricky) and blast can handle lavamancer and teeg etc. I know there is a ton of zoo/ sligh there.

---

Tarmogoyf doesn't seem to be an issue though - he gets chumped by Zombie tokens or Fogged by pitching a card to Tireless Tribe. Demise doesn't really seem to address any problems the deck has, it's just a cute removal spell based on the graveyard. Why not just run Swords or Path if you really want removal? At least those don't nuke your Bridges when you off something.

Yeah, I don't think Goyf is worth a slot or two, most of the time he isn't a problem, the only creatures that may have slots are imo:
Jailer, Faerie Macabre, Progenitus/Dreadnought and Teeg if you build relies on DR

I never actually faced Jailer, so its no problem, but for him I would go with Darkblast, since it might be handy against Lackey as well

The Nought is handled by the Grudge

Progenitus is not as common, same for Macabre

And Teeg is not an issue, i fell the main deck is getting sooooo good and I'm not the only person switching away from DR =)

Creatures are just not enough of a problem to devot SB space to them.





BTW, what do you think about Crypt in our SB?
In the mirror it just wins us the game since most Dredge decks don't pack GY hate and it slows down stuff like Survival, Tempotresh and basically everything with Tarmo, might give us the time to win through their hate. Most of the time my losses come not because I'm not able to recover but I'm not fast enough. Since hate gets handled pretty well packing some slowdown might actually be the way to go (doesn't have to be gravehate though)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaynel

Tarmogoyf doesn't seem to be an issue though - he gets chumped by Zombie tokens or Fogged by pitching a card to Tireless Tribe. Demise doesn't really seem to address any problems the deck has, it's just a cute removal spell based on the graveyard. Why not just run Swords or Path if you really want removal? At least those don't nuke your Bridges when you off something.

---

true, true. Ive had situations where goyf is on the board and I dont have anything good in my grave, and he is just big enough to become a problem.

What do you think of Undiscovered Paradise + the new Zen Vampire "Blood Extractor"


Blood Extractor :b::b:
Creature - Vampire Spirit Rare
Blood Abomination can't block.
Blood Abomination has haste if an opponent has 10 life or less.
Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, you may return Blood Abomination from your graveyard onto the battlefield.
2/1

As most only seem to play 1-2 Paradise (and with good reason), the "combo" won't come up too often...another possibility would be to play 2-3 Dakmor Salvages so you'll always have a land drop to make, but that seems only worth it if you play 4 Extractors, and I'm not sure if dreding only for 2 to get Vampires is better than dreding for 5-6 and having better chances of getting 'Moebas, Ichorids and Bridges.

Parcher mentioned replacing 'Moebas and Ichorids with those...I can't see cutting more than one Ichorid because of how conveniently they die at end of turn, but they could end up being better than Moeba in some situations as the Vampire a) comes back from the grave b) can be brought into play off a discard outlet if you draw it with two lands in your opening hands (I hate drawing 'Moebas in the opening hand as I often don't have the time to hardcast them). So an opening of Undiscovered Paradise, Imp, Vampire is just A LOT better than with 'Moeba, giving you an essentially unkillable and free 2/1 instead of a fragile 1/1 for two mana.

I think the deck has to be restructured a bit if you want to play Vampire...for testing, I'm right now going

-1 Ichorid
-1 Street Wraith
-3 Breakthrough
-2 Coliseum
+4 Vampire
+2 Undiscovered Paradise
+1 Dakmor Salvage

Hi,

I found out about the LEDless version here on the forum and played it in some tournament. The deck is very reliant and punishes people for not knowing how to hate it. And above all it's great fun to play.

I have read several times, that LED vs non-LED comes down to "explosiveness" vs "reliabilty" but that there is not one version that is stricty better than the other.

If this is the case, I can't figure out why, when looking through DeckCheck, one findes only LED-powered lists. Why's that?

Regards,
Matthias

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matthias

Hi,

I found out about the LEDless version here on the forum and played it in some tournament. The deck is very reliant and punishes people for not knowing how to hate it. And above all it's great fun to play.

I have read several times, that LED vs non-LED comes down to "explosiveness" vs "reliabilty" but that there is not one version that is stricty better than the other.

If this is the case, I can't figure out why, when looking through DeckCheck, one findes only LED-powered lists. Why's that?

Regards,
Matthias

---

There are tournaments that deckcheck misses and this version is not as widely played as the LED version.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by georgjorge

Has anyone tried playing Stifle in the Pithing Needle slots ? It protects against both Relic and Crypt (plus random stuff like Loaming Shaman), but where Needle needs to be played before you've started dredging, Stifle needs to be played afterwards. Which might make it a bit more risky since you might overextend and then run into a Force on your Stifle, or spot discard, but on the other hand it allows you to use Therapies to get their counters first...

Grudge is fine, but I'm having problems against decks packing Wasteland where I often can't get up to two mana and play Grudge before dredging, and flashbacking a dredged Grudge just to force a Crypt activation isn't always the best play since I need to get maximum use out of my mana.

---

Hi everyone,
I post here every now and then..

I think the stifle idea looks awsome! It helps against wastelands and u can also counter bridge removal triggers. Stifle might be a hidden gem here.

I could even think about trying trickbind... if you run enough lands. I think it could work.

I even saw a vintage list winning a tournament packing FOWs maindeck. I think that's a little bit too much, but makes you think there is still room for innovation here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grillo

Hi everyone,
I post here every now and then..

I think the stifle idea looks awsome! It helps against wastelands and u can also counter bridge removal triggers. Stifle might be a hidden gem here.

I could even think about trying trickbind... if you run enough lands. I think it could work.

I even saw a vintage list winning a tournament packing FOWs maindeck. I think that's a little bit too much, but makes you think there is still room for innovation here.

---

Stifle always tingled my imagination but I never actually tested it. It should work fine against most non-blue deck as people are going to delay the maximum their Crypt/Relic activation often leving you time to play a discard spell and untapping for the stifle mana.

But against blue decks it just is going to get FOWed/Dazed or balanced out.