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Grip is substancially better than hedgemage. CB isnt your only fear, at 3cc hedgemage is very easy to daze, is not a threat, and can not hit both artifacts and enchantments. Uncondintionalty is what makes shusher and grip so good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
Boarding it in against merfolk makes your best matchup into an even better matchup. You shouldn't be losing to merfolk, and if you want sideboard slots against them, some slots that are good against most aggro (Path to exile and Jitte are good examples). V. painter and CB decks, you'll want Krosan Grip before REB. The only deck I would consider boarding them in against would be Solidarity. If you see Solidarity, you can board in REBs, or just play canonists+gaea's blessing.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wolf
I played 2 for a while and i was never disappointed to see one. They just dominate some matchups and let you steal games in others. It's more of a mid-late game card though. But totally worth it in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Phanel
I'm surprised that noone runs Jitte in the maindeck either, it's always a must answer like Confidant or they just lose, and i like cards like that.
And I'm also surprised that anyone would suggest Hedge-Mage. Pridemage+Grip= enough artifact/enchantment hate. I don't even run Grip in my list. I run Ancient Grudge. Counterbalance has never really cost me a game with this deck.
Im there with you, I run jitte in the MB. Although I use shattering spree instead of ancient grudge, my reasoning is chalice @ 2 gets rid of both my artifact removal, although I may switch it to grip, Ive been thinking about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
Run grip. The instances where you want to hit an enchantment/not be countered is probably going to come up a lot more than when you can X-for-1 artifacts/get an artifact for cheaper than grip.
I played a 17 person tournament last weekend and became 4th.
I played ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (2-1), Merfolk (2-1), Old School Rock (2-1), Death and Taxes (0-2), Aggro Loam (0-2), Goblins (2-1)
I ran:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Nacatl Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Goblin Legionnaire
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix
3 Fireblast
2 Umezawa's jitte
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
3 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
SB:
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
4 Price of Progress
3 Krosan Grip
Changes:
-3 Fireblast: Disliked them. When I had them in hand I either had no use for them or did not have two mountains in play.
-1 Singleton Teeg. I did not want to run a 4th Fireblast but so I just tried Teeg
The deck lacked a way to get rid of bigger creatures. You don't really want to spend 2 Burn spells on a creature to get attackers through and then not have enough reach to finish it off with burn. I'm going to replace them with Path's and/or STP.
Im also not completely sure about Legionnaire sometimes I wished they were Tin Street Hooligans (vs vials) but at other times they were great and they're versatile.
Sideboard will be:
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
&
3 Volcanic Fallout but I am not sure if I need these maybe I'll replace them with POP but I am not convinced about them either since I run a fair amount of non-basics myself. Any suggestions on this one?
I have to disagree with you on Nacatl being decent as 2/2. Being 3/3 is one of its strong points. It's nearly impossible to kill because most creatures in play on turn 1 or 2 are either 2/2 or 1/1. And if they want to kill it by blocking, it's 2 for 1 most times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Phanel
It's also a proper clock against blue decks. If you have it on the board turn one its amazing. In most cases deals 6-9 damage before it's dealt with. Teamed up with Pridemage just makes it sick. I actually think if you try out Pridemage main you're sold.
Vexing Shusher is nice but is just a mere 2/2 against non-blue decks. I agree with Loxodon Baileyarch. With Pridemage main and Grip side you should have enough answers vs counterbalance & Chalice @1.
I also have a few questions.
1. Why did you want to minimize your 2 drops?
2. Did Figure of Destiny work for you since you also run green? Did it become 4/4 often, is it not too mana intensive?
Question... how does this deck fight Ichorid decks? Wouldn't it just cry and roll over game 1?
If Ichorid is a big meta concern, you can play Mogg Fanatic. Jitte helps a lot against them, and Path/Swords works wonders on GGT/Ichorid. It's not a good matchup, but it is definitely a winnable matchup.
Ichorid isn't really very popular right now so it's not a huge concern, but if you feel like improving your g1 ichorid matchup there are a million options.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Mogg Fantic
Samurai of the Pale Curtain
Gaddock Teeg
Ethersworn Canonist
to name a few
And of course there's a billion and one sideboard options. So if it's in your meta, it's really not hard to plan to beat it.
I don't foresee a consensus being reached on the optimal burn package. People just have too varying personal tastes. And the cards that some people swear by other people say they would never play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Phanel
About all I'd say is just run 4 Lightning Bolt and then pick whatever other 6+ creature/player oriented burn spells you're most comfortable with. Viable options including: Chain Lightning, Rift Bolt, Grim Lavamancer, Seal of Fire, Mogg Fanatic, Magma Jet, Lightning Helix, Incinerate, Tribal Flames, etc. Then if one wants more reach Price of Progress and/or Fireblast.
Obviously that fact that Nacatl is a 3/3 for G makes it amazing. But, just in case your opponent has that Wasteland, you still have a 2/2 for G - not all that great, but still okay (which happens to be the meaning of the word "decent"). I just wanted to express that my maindeck doesn't need white mana to work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelis
1. Because they cost two mana. Now I know this sounds like something nitewolf9 would have said, but I mean it. This deck is all about tempo. You don't want to spend two mana, just to see your beater Dazed, Spell Snared or StoPed. Tarmogoyf is obviously too fucking crazy good to not run it, but that aside, Shusher can avoid some of the problems I mentioned above while at the same time letting you ignore CB and Chalice.Quote:
I also have a few questions.
1. Why did you want to minimize your 2 drops?
2. Did Figure of Destiny work for you since you also run green? Did it become 4/4 often, is it not too mana intensive?
2. I didn't draw them all that often, but I had a long game against monored goblins where Figure won while any other 1-drop wouldn't have. It basically got down to me having 5 lands in play vs his seven and he had to mainphase a (hardcast) Pyrokinesis on my Figure to play around a topdecked land from me. This gave me one more turn of free swinging and those three life killed him in the end. The singleton Forest is necessary but doesn't make Figure all that much worse.
Edit: I'm not quite sure if I should be in the Goyf Sligh thread. What exactly is the difference between the two?
Zoo has mostly a higher creature count, while Goyf Sligh packs more burn.
Also Goyf Sligh was traditionally just two-colored.
€dit: Parental Explicit Content.
Ok, I see what you mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Phanel
That's a way of looking at things I suppose. But what if Chalice is on the board and you haven't drawn Shusher? (3 on 60 cards isn't that much). Then you're almost completely locked out. Would you not rather spread your chances by running a mix of cc's and still have a main deck answer vs Chalice and Counterbalance? And Pridemage also answers a lot of other problem cards (Jitte comes to mind) which Shusher does not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Phanel
I personally am convinced it's possible to play around Daze and Spell Snare without sacrificing tempo.
I also played two Krosan Grip main. 5 outs to Chalice sounds a lot better than three. That aside, I do see your point, but - Chalice aside - Figure is a one- and two-drop at the same time which is why I like it (with added Bonus in the lategame). In many matchups it doesn't need more than a 2/2 to apply pressure as Burn-spells are waiting. But by the definition above I guess, I'm really drifting towards Goyf-Sligh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelis
to put in my 2 cents in the ichorid question,wheel of sun and moon really messes them up.but i also run maindeck null rod.
Let my friend borrow my Zoo deck, and he top 8-ed with it and had to play me first round, and lost.
BEST ZOO LIST EVER:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nactal
3x Watchwolf
4x Qasali Pridemage
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2x Woolly Thoctar
3x Path to Exile
3x Chain Lightning
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
2x Jitte
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
1x Bloodstained Mire
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest
Sideboard:
4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Ancient Grudge
4x Vexing Shusher
4x Pithing Needle
So yeah i only remember a few of his matches, so here are some highlights. He drew due to time against Nassif-Level-Garbage, he beat Mono R Sligh by making him 4for1 to kill a Goyf. Then he played against WBG Aggro, and i glanced over to see him with more dudes in play and killing Jitte and Vial with Grudge. Then we played without SB since we're friend and were just messing around. Game one he turn 4-ed me, then game 2 a stabilize with Counterbalance at 2 life. Game three same thing.
I am EXTREMELY confident in my list. It hasn't missed the top 8 in 5 weeks running.
I'm not a big fan of Isamaru. Why do you like him over figure of destiny/more burn/cursed scroll/other options?
When i draw him, i usually always cast him on turn one. Like Kird Ape has 2 power and 1 more toughness. He still dies to bolts and common removal. Like i see Isamaru as Kird Ape's number 5 and 6. I won't get foil ones because he is the next thing to be cut, but until i feel comfortable with the change i'll keep running him. He's a 4 damage for one mana almost always. People won't kill him immediately like they will Nacatyl.
You can play hidden herd. Itīs usually a 3/3 for G or a tempo advantage for you. Another interesting option is Skyshroud elite that can substitute the isamarus.
I don't think that hidden herd is worthwhile because it can be completely dead after the first few turns. Even though it's strong, I don't think that it's strong enough to justify that risk. I would play skyshroud before herd anyday, but even then I still wouldn't play skyshroud. I'd still say figure would be the best, but most people here don't seem to agree.