[Deck] Dredge

I don't know that I would want to go below 2 Deep Analysis. Besides the broken stuff, it can actually get cast with lands in a more laborious struggle.

Right now I have 3 DR targets: Iona, Woodfall Primus, and FKZ. Iona has been really solid in that whenever I reanimated it I basically lock the opponent (I almost won through double leyline by having it Shown and Told in. Stupid Bogardan Hellkite). The same goes Woodfall Primus as well, because it is effectively Time Stretch or at the very least a great way to clear a path for a big swing through Propaganda, Moat, Ghostly Prison, or Glacial Chasm. I might slice the FKZ, though it is the quickest kill, because the stars for the kill align rarely, and if they have, you can probably just DR Grave-Troll and Therapy them a few times. It is really good at winning in tuns, though. All in all I think the last land will be more helpful.

I think you could run 2 DA in a full combo version. Is this possible? What if we buid the deck just to go off as soon as possible? Cutting unmask in fovour of tireless tribe or careful study to almost wuarranty the victory in G1 and isde in the protection post board. Off course i'd include iona.

Unmask actually is as much a 'combo' enabling card as a protection spell. Unmasking yourself enables T1 Breakthrough, obv. If that doesn't feel 'combo' enough, I'd rather go back to Careful Study than run MD Tribe, just because of colour issues (you run 7 W sources, 11 U).

That said, I really wouldn't try to improve G1s. You should not have to worry about those. MD Tribe maybe would give you more room to board, I guess... But the only changes to the OP-List I would consider are +Land, -DA/Unmask, SB: -City, +Whispmare/Ray of Revelatiion

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Originally Posted by Serbitar

Unmask actually is as much a 'combo' enabling card as a protection spell. Unmasking yourself enables T1 Breakthrough, obv. If that doesn't feel 'combo' enough, I'd rather go back to Careful Study than run MD Tribe, just because of colour issues (you run 7 W sources, 11 U).

That said, I really wouldn't try to improve G1s. You should not have to worry about those. MD Tribe maybe would give you more room to board, I guess... But the only changes to the OP-List I would consider are +Land, -DA/Unmask, SB: -City, +Whispmare/Ray of Revelatiion

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Yeah i guess CS is better for that aim over tribe. However, i keep testing the "control" version. With good results. Despite that i think that i need actual suggestions:

Lands (11)

4 City of brass
3 Gemstone mine
1 undiscover paradise
3 Cephalid colisseum

Dredgers (11)

4 Golgari grave troll
4 Stinkweed imp
3 Golgari Thug

Other creatures (15)

4 Putrid imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Eternal witnees
1 Iona shield of emeria
1 Flame kin zealot

Spells (23)

4 Bridge from below
4 Cabal therapy
4 Lion's eye diamond
1 Deep analysis
3 Unmask
3 Dread return
4 Breakthrough

Sideboard (15)

4 Greater gargadon
4 Firestorm
4 Chain of vapor
2 Tireless tribe
1 Ancestor's chosen

I am thinking about playing this deck this weekend at a local tourny, running Parcher's 75 but -1 Hypno +1 Iona. Since I've yet to test Iona against the field (and won't get the chance to until the tourny) I was wondering if anyone could post a list of what color to name against each relevant multicolor deck (zoo, bant etc).

Does the color change depending on when you DR' her? I'll be reading tournament reports and try to gain insight from there, but if anyone (including the people who wrote said reports of course) found better things to name after the fact please do tell.

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Originally Posted by Meister_Kai

I am thinking about playing this deck this weekend at a local tourny, running Parcher's 75 but -1 Hypno +1 Iona. Since I've yet to test Iona against the field (and won't get the chance to until the tourny) I was wondering if anyone could post a list of what color to name against each relevant multicolor deck (zoo, bant etc).

Does the color change depending on when you DR' her? I'll be reading tournament reports and try to gain insight from there, but if anyone (including the people who wrote said reports of course) found better things to name after the fact please do tell.

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Well...off course it's depending on the matchup. If you play agains burn it's irrelevant naming green. :P
If you ask me i think that iona in a win cond. So you should name a color to keep her in game. Besides monocolour decks i think that the most relevant colours are white, black and in the far thrird place blue (considering bouncers). The rest depends on your skills.

Suggestions for my list???

What kind of matchups are you expecting Cid,because i know that since i added iona, most of the time thats all i need. Naming their removal color is awesome, and usually, when i get the point where i DR Iona, i have dredged a bunch and am ready to mount ichorid beats in the next turn with iona. My DR targets are Iona and E Witness..... Do you think FKZ in the main is necessary because sometimes it doesnt get there.... I can see how it can be good to just end the game there, but once you've dredged that much, it shouldnt matter anyways. On the SB, seems pretty good in the control meta, but do you need ancestors chosen if you are DR-ing Iona?

I´d NEVER cut Ancient Grudge! I know that it´s possible and I did it myself sometimes (g1 double relic was nasty, still won) but it still can be pretty hard to win through a Relic/Crypt without AG if they have any backup. Maybe your game against LotV is better now but srsly, how often do you face it?

On a second thought, why is your list "controlish" ? It´s pretty much Parchers MD, just a little worse because you added 1 more useless DR-Target :/

I have been testing this deck for a while now, and am only recently running into three consistently awful matchups. Whether this is a result of a subtle metagame shift or just bad luck, I do not know. But I am interested in discussing these matchups, strategies that Ichorid can use in these matchups, and cards that would be relevant.

1. Armageddon Stax
2. Enchantress
3. BG Survival/Eva Green

These matchups are, quite simply, nightmarish for the Dredge player. Each of the decks is essentially pre-sideboarded against the deck's fundamental strategy as a graveyard based aggro/combo deck. The decks hose BOTH the aggro and graveyard elements of Dredge, ensuring that we have an incredibly hard time in winning. The problematic cards are listed below:

Armageddon Stax
a. Trinisphere: completely shuts down all spell casting for a few turns. Drastically slows down Dredge even if you manage to get three lands.
b. Chalice of the Void: Set at 1, it neuters most of the deck. Tribe, PImp, Breakthrough, Study, Therapy, Chain, Needle, etc.
c. Ghostly Prison: Slows deck down to a crawl. Redundant Prisons can completely prevent all attacks.
d. Armageddon: Normally not a problem for Dredge, but when coupled with Prison and Trinisphere, essentially forces you to resign.
e. Wasteland: Once Crucible gets down, we can are forever locked out of mana.
f. Tormod's Crypt: If all of the above weren't bad enough, Crypt just makes it worse.
g. Magus of the Tabernacle: Not only do we have to pay more for spells and to attack. Now we need to pay for our creatures too.
h. Baneslayer/Exalted Angel: Impossible to outrace with Prisons in play. Completely turns around games that you were slowly winning (with PImp and Narcomoeba beatdown, for instance)

Enchantress
a. Elephant Grass: Like Ghostly Prison, except your Zombies, Ghasts, Ichorids, and Imps can't even attack at all. Absurdly undercosted spell.
b. Moat: If it hits in game 1, you probably autolose, unless Iona is lurking around. Even in games 2 and 3, can stall you for at least a few turns.
c. Solitary Confinement: Similar problem with Moat, except you can't even use Therapy to whittle away at their hand while waiting for enchantment removal.
d. Wheel of the Sun and Moon: No scarier than Crypt, Leyline, Relic, etc. Still needs to be immediately answered.
e. Sterling Grove: Ultra-problematic card. Getting one Wispmare/CoV is possible. Getting two is extremely unlikely. When Grove gets coupled with redundant Grass/Moat/Confinement/Wheel/etc. then you are essentially in scoop mode.

BG Survival/Eva Green
a. Faerie Macabre: Obnoxious, instant speed graveyard hate that can be recurred, tutored for, and can only be stopped with Unmask/Therapy.
b. Ravenous Trap: Easily dealt with using countermagic (Nix/FoW) or discard. When combined with redundant hatred, however, Trap becomes another instant speed "GG" bullet.
c. Withered Wretch: Not all builds use it, but when he hits play, rest assured that your opponent will just chill with mana untapped daring you to dump cards into the yard.
d. Relic/Crypt: Some builds run both. Even more hatred.
e. Leyline: Further, compounding hatred.

Now, I am not suggesting that these matchups are completely unwinnable. I am saying that they are abnormally difficult and unfavorable, in the grand scheme of the current metagame. These three decks have extremely redundant hatred beyond what most other decks use. It is common to see 3 Crypt/Relic and 2 Traps in a lot of sideboards. That's 5 cards worth of hatred. These decks run in excess of 12, in some cases. This virtually guarantees that your opponent draws answers in the opening turns of a game, irreparably stalling Dredge's game plan.

What are the answers to these cards and strategies? This is not a question that can just be answered with "Bounce and remove their threats" or "Just play more conservatively". For those that have tested this matchups, I believe it will go without saying that they are extremely difficult. It is not a question that can be answered with theorizing and hypotheticals. Are there any results that provide a solution, such as effective sideboards, critical cards, etc? Or are these necessarily "doomed" matchups?

-ktkenshinx

I'm probably not the most qualified person to talk about this, but here are some observations from first-hand playtesting that I made about half a year or so ago. Also, Ichorid is one of the most streaky decks out there, and how much hate your opponent draws is a direct contributor to that factor as well. You slow roll your dredges, but unluckily hit three bridges in one dredge and he crypts the whole lot, etc etc. Be good at shuffling lol.

Of all the matchups you listed, I don't think Eva Green belongs. Game 1 should always be yours. Maelstrom Pulse might slow you down, but as a rule of thumb they have infinite dead cards against you. Game 2 totally depends on how heavy their anti-GY SB is. If you're running into an Eva Green deck that has ALL (or even more than two) of the cards you mentioned above, you probably will not win regardless.

Enchantress has always been a pretty terrible matchup, as almost every card they have is something you don't want to see. It is still possible game 1 to just flat out crush them before they even get a chance to develop. Game 2 rays come in and the same deal. It sucks that this deck is becoming more and more popular due to the SCG 5K @ LA, cause I honestly think it's one of our hardest matchups period.

I haven't played the Stax matchup much, but from my experience they have to aggressively mull for Ghostly Prison or Magus of the Tabernacle. I'm not really afraid of the other cards, since you can pretty much still DDD and not really give a crap about their Chalice/Sphere effects. They have a hard time finishing people off in a reasonable amount of time.

Luckily those three are decks that doesn't see many participation in a given standard metagame. But yep, Armageddon Stacks and Enchantress are awful mu's (I don't see Eva Green like those two).

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Originally Posted by johanessen

Luckily those three are decks that doesn't see many participation in a given standard metagame. But yep, Armageddon Stacks and Enchantress are awful mu's (I don't see Eva Green like those two).

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Really?
I see these decks all the time. Obviously not as popular as Zoo or Goblins or Merfolk, but the chances of running into one of these at any given tournament is very likely imo.

So what do people think of the new Worldwake card Nature's Claim? I don't know whether it supplants or supplements Chain of Vapor, (I lean towards the latter), but it destroys most of the problem permanents for Ichorid for G. The only problem is that you can't cast it off of Cephalid Coliseum, though this is probably a corner case.

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Originally Posted by ninja_attack

What kind of matchups are you expecting Cid,because i know that since i added iona, most of the time thats all i need. Naming their removal color is awesome, and usually, when i get the point where i DR Iona, i have dredged a bunch and am ready to mount ichorid beats in the next turn with iona. My DR targets are Iona and E Witness..... Do you think FKZ in the main is necessary because sometimes it doesnt get there.... I can see how it can be good to just end the game there, but once you've dredged that much, it shouldnt matter anyways.

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I expect any match up. I think that having iona or FKZ give the deck 2 solid win conditions. Maybe the weakness of iona is the lack of haste. In some matchs or circunstanses it's decisive. Of course surely you have good reasons for cutting FKZ but i'm comfortable with it in main deck. If i had to cut it it would be for another creature such as woodfall or the new elephant of WWK.

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Originally Posted by ninja_attack

On the SB, seems pretty good in the control meta, but do you need ancestors chosen if you are DR-ing Iona?

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That's right. Good reasaning. Go fast for iona could be a good alternative against burn where ancestor's is great.
Probably i'll cut it in favour of...primus? elephant?? Anything else??

After looking at the WWK card list I couldn't help but notice the synergy with Admonition Angel and Undiscovered Paradise. Has anyone else considered running it over some of the other DR targets in a build with paradise?

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Originally Posted by GreenHornet

After looking at the WWK card list I couldn't help but notice the synergy with Admonition Angel and Undiscovered Paradise. Has anyone else considered running it over some of the other DR targets in a build with paradise?

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Something like that came out with conflux and its child of alara. I destroys everything but lands. The conclussion was that this deck doesn't need massive destruction but specific. The angel could help with this aim but i don't like it's ability dependent on lands. Something like that occurs with bloodghast but it's another kind of creature. Angel needs to be reanimated which means that you have already dredged (not only discarded it) and have paradise on battlefield or a land in hand to make effect.

This land joins to the hate team:


http://i47.tinypic.com/o58fmf.jpg

And it's a fu**ing non discardable land.

Bojuka Bog is actually not as scary as it seems. Yes, it is non-discardable and essentially uncounterable, but it has to be played at sorcery speed. Yes, you can cheat it into play with Crop Rotation and similar cards, but those are themselves discardable threats. If you are worried about Bog, then you simply need to have a big Dredge turn to get a lot of Zombies and your DR targets, and then pass. Your yard might be gone, but you will still have a sizable force.
Even when coupled with Ravenous Trap and/or Crypt (or whatever else you want to put in the "insert graveyard hate here" slot), the Bog is not that terrifying. It is no worse than a Trap alone, or a Crypt alone, or whatever else. I see it being used only in Aggro Loam, Lands, and White Stax. White Stax you say? Absolutely. Recastable from the graveyard every turn, at least with a Stax in play and a Crucible to allow the play, Bog becomes yet another nail in the Armageddon Stax matchup.

-ktkenshinx-

Agreed, I'm not more scared of this than Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Ravenous Trap, Leyline of the Void or Yixlid Jailer. In fact, to actually make me more worried about graveyard hate than I am today, they really would have to print nothing less than a strict upgrade to Leyline of the Void or Tormod's Crypt. This is just another, perhaps even suboptimal in the black deck, choice. You could build a 15 card sideboard against GY-strategies already (and no ones does, since there is no need to). This rather really feels like a pretty crappy set filler to finish off that rather awful cycle of spell lands.

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And the Eva Green matchup? To me, that has always been goldfishing. Either they mulligan into oblivion trying to find their answer, or they don't get it and lose. I guess they can get it early and keep pressure up, but really, as much hate as they have access to, they have no way to dig for it, or for recovering from heavy mulligans. It really should be heavily in the Ichorid-players favour.

Also, while I don't like seeing Enchantress (to the point that I switched to AnT), it's still pretty winnable unless they get Solitary Confinement out. A large troll can walk through elephant grass, big flying DR-targets get past Moat; and all of these highly disruptive cards takes some setup on the Enchantress-players side to actually work.

I have no idea about Stax though, I have, however, gotten locked down by Trinisphere once. Ouch.

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Originally Posted by ktkenshinx

Bojuka Bog is actually not as scary as it seems. Yes, it is non-discardable and essentially uncounterable, but it has to be played at sorcery speed. Yes, you can cheat it into play with Crop Rotation and similar cards, but those are themselves discardable threats. If you are worried about Bog, then you simply need to have a big Dredge turn to get a lot of Zombies and your DR targets, and then pass. Your yard might be gone, but you will still have a sizable force.
Even when coupled with Ravenous Trap and/or Crypt (or whatever else you want to put in the "insert graveyard hate here" slot), the Bog is not that terrifying. It is no worse than a Trap alone, or a Crypt alone, or whatever else. I see it being used only in Aggro Loam, Lands, and White Stax. White Stax you say? Absolutely. Recastable from the graveyard every turn, at least with a Stax in play and a Crucible to allow the play, Bog becomes yet another nail in the Armageddon Stax matchup.

-ktkenshinx-

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Untill they get Bog/living sunami lock on you. =P

I <3 Prereleases.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...4003&type=card + http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...0407&type=card + http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...7786&type=card

It happened one game I swear.