[Deck] GW Survival

@ Tao, I agree with your observations. I've been dumping my hand out by turn 4. I spew everything out and usually the win/loss is decided by then. Against quick decks like zoo/folk/goblins, my build is excellent because I get all my stuff out quickly and start bashing. Iona is also GG when it lands and the gas problem disappears because they can't cast anything.

Against the rock etc, I split the games because sometimes I "explode" too quickly and just kick their ass with Iona. In other games, they throw Thoughtseize, Hymm, Vindicates at me and it comes down to a grinding game which I usually lose.

I tried incorporating Vengevine/NO in my vial lists and observed the same things you did. If I cut Noble for either, it's awkward because I can't cast NO with vial and Vial @ 4 is very slow. What I ideally wanted was to replace Noble with a creature based bomb like Dark Confidant which can be vialed out. I however find that the splash is bad for my manabase and I could not run Horizon Canopies, which are excellent in this deck. I have therefore settled on the mighty Sylvan Library as a 2 of, replacing 2 Nobles. Here is the current list:

4 Vial
4 GSZ
4 STP
2 Sylvan Library

4 Mother of Runes
2 Noble Heirarch
4 Goyf
4 KOTR
4 Fauna
3 Pridemage
1 Teeq
1 Iona
1 Loyal Retainers

4 Heath
2 Strand (Mind games indicating Bant- Leading Strand -> Savanna, might cause players to think Bant, giving me time to Teeq them out)
2 Misty (Ditto)
3 Savanna
3 Canopy (So good, I upped to 3)
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Arbor
4 Wasteland

I realized in my previous build, I had too many turn 1 plays: 4 Mom, 4 Vial, 4 Noble, 4 GSZ- Sometimes I can't decide which to play first and I love this. To cut some stuff for Gas, the most obvious slots to trim are the 1 drops and the worse of them is Noble since I don't run NO. I trimmed 2 for Sylvan Library which is an excellent bomb that gels well with my curve. I still have 24! (25 if you count arbor) Creatures, which is plenty for Fauna, so that's not an issue. I have another testing session tonight so I will update on results.

@ My board looks like this now:
2 Path (Or more chokes if I expect more blue)
1 Maze of Ith
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Jitte
1 Null Rod
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Needle (Or Revoker since revoker hits combo)
1 Oblivion Ring (Emrakul/Tutorable anti enchantment)
1 Choke
1 Faerie Macabre (Good to draw in opening 7 vs Dredge/Reanimator and also tutorable with Fauna, Loaming Shaman is too slow)

This SB has been good. Post board I have a lot of outs against ANT/TES. I bring in: 4 Tutor, 1 Null Rod, 1 Cannonist, 1 Revoker (If I run it). This gives me a 8 T2 hate (including Gaddock in the main) and an additional 8 T3 (4 Fauna, 4 GSZ). Giving me 16 live cards against combo. I think that's a pretty safe number. Being varied also means you don't lose to Echoing Truth. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tao

@Sideboards:
What are yours?

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My sideboard’s basically changing after every event. The list isn’t streamlined yet. Currently I'm running:
3 Gaddock Teeg (Mostly for blue matchups, as I’ve frankly pretty much given up on the combo matchup)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Choke
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Armageddon (still haven't seen any play, don't know if they are actually worth it)
1 Peacekeeper (This guy is actually pretty nuts! Buys you enough time to win with Progenitus)
1 Maze of Ith
1 Tropical Island (Like to have the 22nd land somewhere against mana denial strategies)
1 Clone (Test slot. Against opposing Ionas, Emrakuls and Progeniti)

I cut all the graveyard hate before the last tournament. Obviously my only loss was to Dredge. I still don’t like to have any in the board really. 5 basic lands let you dodge recurring Wasteland strategies quite easy and Dredge isn’t widely played.

I’m currently testing Sylvan Libraries in the two Sensei’s Divining Top-Slots and I’m not entirely sure which one is better. I really like the one time investment of the Libraries as I usually have things to spend my mana on during later turns. I’m probably going to play them next Saturday in Mannheim. Do you guys have any preferences?

Sylvan all the way. If you get the turn back after you play sylvan you can immediately cash in for an ancestral recall vs control. I play sylvan alot in zoo, it is absolutely the balls awesome against control/midrange mirror. Top needs mana everyturn and is not true card advantage. It's just card quality. Sylvan is a much bigger bomb.

Top gets you a good selection of cards. Sylvan let's you bury the opponent with a horde of dudes. Its like a turbo dark confidant early and a top later. Btw can you vial in an arbor for zero? That would be absurd if possible.

I think I'm going with Vengevine approach. I too tried the Vial version and I did observe that I lost the gas so quickly. Despite running a playset of stoneforge mystics. It just needed all that additional gas the maverick decks run, like Weathered Wayfarer and Sylvan Library. And it really turns the deck into Maverick.

As for Iona, I never felt it was necessary even in original GW Survival list with real Survivals. Most of the time I've played with her, I simply went for Vengevines to win attrition wars over the hate. And I always won em. Getting your Iona blown was just too much unwarranted loss of a tempo. And I like my Vengevines :D

As for MD: If you're going Vengevine, run Quirion Ranger and Basking Rootwalla. These have been invaluable for me.

@sotw screw the top, it eats so many mana. Sylvan Library is much better.

Here's what I'm currently running:

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Savannah
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MBS] Forest (1)
1 [MBS] Plains (1)
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [M11] Fauna Shaman
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [ROE] Vengevine
1 [TO] Basking Rootwalla

// Spells
4 [DDF] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [ARC] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 1 [EVE] Cold-Eyed Selkie
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker

Quote:

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Btw can you vial in an arbor for zero? That would be absurd if possible.

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You can.

@ tinefol, if you don't see any combo that forces you to do broken things early, vengevines are better against control/ midrange. I see a fair amount of combo and stuff that needs me to explode early like tribal, zoo which a venge chain is too slow against. IMO having vials somewhat balances the gas issue vs control. They have to force vial or die horribly to uncounterable dudes. It's honestly quite hard to deal with faunas and loyal retainer being cheated In Through vial. I do agree my deck looks alot like gw Maverick. I play against fast decks like reanimator and enchantress, so exploding out an iona is pretty important for me.

ATM I am not sure what the perfect maindeck is. I currently try different versions, with VV, Iona and both. Rootwalla and a Ranger probably belong in the VV version, many good ideas but very few slots.

For the Sideboard: My current SB is 4 Mindbreak Trap, 3 Grip, 3 Crypt, 2 Path, 1 Teeg, 1 Canonist, 1 Kataki.

I like Kataki War's Wage a lot. Affinity is pretty broken again and Etched Champion is a big danger. Having 8 ways to tutor for it is awesome (usually GSZ into Fauna into Kataki is enough with Sword/Path backup). Spending one SB slot to improve one matchup by many percent is worth it. It is also strong vs. Staxx, Monolith.dec and Thopter and you can always side it for value in if they use Top, Moxen and/or other stuff.

Mindbreak Trap is giving you a realistic shot against Combo. Giving up the Combo matchup is not nessecary unless you know your Meta very well. Trap fits the strategy perfectly. They know the GW deck has tutorable hate bears and is able to protect them if a Mother is on the field so they often go for the fast kill without disruption and get destroyed. I even "countered" a hard casted Emrakul against Time Spiral once. It also fixes the T1 issue. They can't just kill you with an all hate hand on turn 1 or do their "T2 Upkeep chant you, T3 Upkeep chant you, t4 Combo".

Anyone tried the caw (squadron hawk)? It seems to fit right in with fauna. Caw somewhat gives you the effect of squee without the dead draws. Of course you'd need the equipment too to abuse it, I've been thinking of putting 3 caws in the board with my tutor + jitte package. This would come in against heavy control with firespouts where I don't want to dump my hand too quickly and I want to play conservatively.

I did more testing yesterday vs zoo and the rock. Zoo was a pretty easy matchup in general. Vial and mom was MVP. Recurring dark rituals and superwall are insane. Rock was 50/50. Sylvan is golden here though I did lose a game after losing 16 life for 4 cards and then dieing to an elspeth! Grr, got too greedy lol. I also managed to outgrind them with fauna. Turning every topdeck dude into kotr= priceless. Vial is very important in the current meta. There are too many tempo decks right now. Vial just invalidates their LD strategy and lets you aggressively wasteland them and crack horizon canopy.

I dropped in here to see if I could piece back together the old Survival shell with Quirion ranger powering up Fauna Shaman, but it seems you guys have already tried it out. How does it work out for you? I was thinking of playing more than a singleton and going for a turbo Fauna approach, but I'll take your word for it first. I am not going for the same idea as these decks it's going to be more speed than attacking so I needed to know how fast you can go with it.

Also, I looked up the Aether Vial / Dryad Arbor thing and it seems you can. It does have the type for creature and it's not being played as a spell so that clause on the arbor doesn't apply. I can't find a reason why not. Fairly hot knowledge.

@ dachmai, T1 Vial, Drop Arbor. -_- Wow, talk about acceleration! Anyway I'm pretty much happy with my Vial-Iona-Retainers list. Has game against most decks and Vial is just retarded. As for Quirion/Scryb + Fauna Combo into plenty of vengevine activations, it's good but I prefer 2 Fauna activations into Iona. It's simpler, quicker and just needs a Fauna in play. Aether Vial has been MVP for me every game. Wastelands and Stifles are terrible against me, which is a good thing.

Hey,

I am pretty interested in this archtype. I am pretty stuck to spirits list as progenitus + iona provides the answer against a lots of decks. I was wondering why most VV lists posted here contain 4 VV. From my point of view you rarely have time to get all 4 into the grave which leads me to the guess that you want 1 VV in hand when the Faunashaman gets active to directly pitch it.

Has anyone considered a 1-off Thrull, the last Troll for having a solid out against blue based decks ?

so long

In 4 later, when I again have internet at home I will post my ideas/opinions etc.

Just came home from a tournament, so here's the short report. I've played with a version I've posted a couple of posts ago.

Round 1. Death and Taxes.
Game1. He gets a solid early start with Vial. I go Savannah, Hierarch. He Wastes my land then STPs hierarch. I repeat with fetch into Savannah into GSZ into Dryad Arbor, he drops a Mom with Vial and casts another. I cast Fauna Shaman and my own Mom to develop my board. He EOT drops the Avenger to bring me to 13 on my turn. I fetch for Quirion, pitching Vengvine, and cast KoTR (which is 6/6 by now). He vials in Jotun Grunt and it shrinks my KoTR to 4/4, but cannot afford to attack with it, since tapping his mom means I'm going for massive retaliation. I sac canopy for gas on his turn. Next turn I 'reanimate' Vengvine with Mom and Goyf and fetch (kotr = 6/6). I use Quirion to give protection from white to my V/V and KoTR to swing for 10. His Grunt makes my Knight 2/2, which is sad. He uses his own mom to make Jotun Grunt unblockable to bring me 5 and drops a Mystic. I untap my Knight EOT with Quirion, fetch for wasteland. (KOTR = 3/3). On my turn I fetch (4/4), Waste my own Savannah (6/6), make my VV and KOTR unblockable again and swing for another 10 to kill him.

Game2. He starts with a Vial and Stoneforge Mystic. I drop Null Rod. He's stuck on two lands, uses his Mystics to chumpblock my Goyf for two turns and then Goyf and VV do their stuff.
1-0, 2-0

Round2. NO C/B Bant
Game1. He manages to StP a couple of my early threats, but I get a Vengvine to swing past through his Goyf. He responds with a Rhox War Monk, which regains him a couple life points. I topdeck into GSZ into KoTR. As I already have a Quirion Ranger, it grows really quick, and he's forced to chump. I topdeck Elspeth and fly over for 14 damage, he has only has 8 life.
Game2. I start with comfortable 2 Moms into QPM, he gets a Goyf, which I sword, then another goyf which I sword. He drops a needle on my mom and removes the QPM. I get a Vengevine and swing with both of my Moms, Dryad Arbor and it, bringing him down to 7 from 14. He casts a Rhox and then StPs my Vengevine. I topdeck QPM, swing with Arbor to get exalted, destroy needle with QPM, protect my Arbor from blocks, and he goes to 5. My 2nd mom does fine at holding his Rhino. Another QPM on my turn and he's down to 3. He gets to order, but its about too late for him.
2-0, 4-0

Round3. Merfolk
Game1. I open with Mom to hold the ground, and STP. He really lacks the offense (two Cursecatchers and Adept), I STP his only lord and lay out the Shaman, then get 3 Vengevines going. He scoops it.
Game 2. I open with two Moms, which get there, but he dazes and Fows all my heavy stuff like GSZ and KoTRs. He also has relic out, but really is short on lands and offense (yeah, FoW eats the lords). I get a Shaman out, but all I topdeck into is removal, not creatures, so shaman goes offensive on his board of cursecatchers and adepts. He starts to topdeck his lords in a couple of turns, I get a hierarch and just cast it, since I need double white for Elspeth I'm holding. I also have 2 STP and 2 Paths, and he just can't get past 2 moms. Elspeth gets FoWed and the shaman does it anyway 18-16-14-12-9-6-3-0.

3-0, 6-0

Round4. White Weenie
Game 1. I stp his early Mom and Avenger, and all he has is a Stillmoon Cavalier. My goyf swings through for a couple of turns, and I just topdeck into 3 KoTRs. And I already had a Quirion Ranger. He chumps for a bit, but then just dies to three 14/14 guys
Game 2. He keeps a land light hand with only 1 Plains and two wastelands. Gets Mom and Jitte out. I waste him out, and make a few hits with protected Qasali, then topdeck Elspeth and just fly over him.
4-0, 8-0. We ID though, since that's a lock into prizes for both of us. xD

Round 5. Naya Loam.
Game 1. I have a really quick start, popping a Vengvine on turn 3. He devdreams the board on his turn. I return the Savannah with my Quirion Ranger, then curve out into Mom/Goyf/Kotr. He can't keep up.
Game 2. I start off with Mom into Shaman into Quirion Ranger, into KoTR. He has two goyfs. I STP his KOTr, but he has another. So I swing with my KOTR, brninging him down to 7 from 15. He shrinks it with Bojuka Bog and digs hard with Loam and cycle lands for some gas. Casts another KoTR. I swing with my Exalted Basking Rootwalla, protected from blockers by Mom. He tries to remove it, but I quirion and protect it again. He goes to 3, and tries to dig really hard on his turn. I bojuka Bog away his graveyard, then try to repeat the attack with Rootwalla. He attempts to STP his knight, but I path it in response and that's game.
5-0, 10-0.

The deck was really awesome. Who needs survival? We've got Vengevines!

Also did a bit of testing against Merfolk and Dark Horizons. The matches were not even close. I've overwhelmlingly crushed both decks all the time.

Played another tournament, got into top8, but lost outright to Sneak & Show. The match up is horrible, perhaps the most horrible out of all combo match ups. They don't play into Karakas and go SNTing Progenitus, and postboard they add Blood Moons and Firespout, which really slow the shit down for the safe Sneaks into Emrakuls. I just don't know of any sideboard cards that might help. Tariff?

First of all: congratulations on the results.
My experiences are similar. Most matchups are either good or very good, but some matchups give you trouble. Dredge can easily be handled by the Sideboard, Storm Combo and High Tide Combo are not good but Mindbreak Trap helps a lot. Vs. Elves the Iona version is far superior.

For the Sneak and Tell matchup I have not many ideas. Tariff is imo way too situational unless you know your Meta is full of this deck. Sneak Attack into Emrakul unfortunately even gets around Tariff (and also Karakas). Mindbreak Trap is also no help so it is probably just best to accept it as a bad matchup. Iona could help if they go for Progenitus she might be able to race them.

One possible out against Sneak and Tell might be Peacekeeper. They don't tend to play a lot of removal, so she should at least buy you some time to build up and perhaps alpha strike. Peacekeeper is also great against various other decks like Merfolk, Elves etc, especially when playing four Moms.

One card that hasn't seen any discussion yet in this thread is Intuition. I know it opens you up to potential Island walk and arguably weakens your mana base, together with Vengevines however I could see them adding some more explosiveness to this deck. I haven't playtested the inclusion of it yet and won't find the time to do so before May, I just wanted to hear your thoughts on it. Btw: I really like the direction you guys have been taking this deck.

Peacekeeper just doesn't work. They have bounce and postboard they bring in firespout. Not to mention you need a lot of time to tutor and cast Peacekeeper and not get it countered.

Congrats! IMO this deck absolutely destroys anything interactive with creatures. Doesn't matter what build or engine you play, 4 mom, 4 gsz, 4 goyf, 4 kotr, 4 fauna just gets you there. I tested this alot last week vs affinity, goblins etc and I just destroy aggro. My big dudes, removal and mom stall the ground, then I land fauna and proceed to get a monster flyer and beat in the air. That's one of the things I like about Iona. I can gum up the ground with my dudes and still bash in the air over kotrs, goyfs and other ground based monsters which venge cannot do.

Iona version also puts a plug in annoying slower combo like loam lands and enchantress. A foreseeable problem is punishing fire zoo. They have so much recurring removal it is impossible to stick anything against them. I just have everything fried and they just run right over me. Venge version maybe better against this mu.

If decks with one or two huge (shrouded) creatures give you problems, try Wing Shards. As mentioned, Tariff is good against Show and Tell but useless if Sneak Attack is involved.

Unfortunately Wing Shards will not get around the Emrakul Trigger.

The best solution so far is Peacekeeper. I have general issues with the card, but it seems like an option. My problem is of course that while you spend your time on paying his Upkeep they spend their time on developing the board so once they find a solution you are far behind. I don't like it vs. Affinity for that reason because as soon as they have found Disciple/Ravager or Tezzeret you will lose. You also can't protect it from Galvanic Blast unless you keep Mother of Runes in which is obviously a bad card vs. them.

On the other hand there is nothing else that at least does something in the Sneak and Tell matchup. Of course it loses to Counters and Bounce but finding a card that does not do that will be impossible. What you rely on against them anyway is that they struggle a bit and then you can start playing Mother of Runes to protect it. On top of that it is awesome against Dredge. They are often cold to it, and even if they run Darkblast they have to find the Blast before you have as many Mother of Runes active as they are able to cast the Darkblast before you untap.

On a side note, what do you think about Phyrexian Revoker? Tinefol had it in the Sideboard but people in the Rock and Deadguy threads go pretty wild about playing him multiple times in the mainboard. Other people also had good experiences with him. And we can even tutor for it so I think it should be tested in the maindeck. It also helps in both the Elves and Sneak'nTell matchup on top of the obvious Vial/Top/Ravager thing.

K.Grip stops sneak attack before they can activate it, and its a damn good card to have in the SB anyways.