Re: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter
In 90% of the games the opponents scoop to save time when you begin to charge Jace because it means that they don't have any threats in play and that you don't have any need for extra cards anymore. In a real tournament where time matters and the opponents benefit from the game taking longer you might win some games with his ultimate because they make you go through the steps.
Aside from that it depends on the version how many games you win with Thopters and how many you win with Jace. Lists with 4 Foundry/4 Sword will of course win more often with the Combo.
In my version with Enlightened Tutors and only 2 Foundrys/1 Sword I win about half the game via "check mate" (Jace/Countertop/Moat or similar locks) and the other half with the combo.
Re: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter
Re: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter
At first I was like WTF future sight? What is this? EDH? Then I thought for a while, seriously. I always wanted an enchantment draw effect in blue to tutor for against control. I splashed black once for dark tutelage MD but that sucked balls against aggro. I needed something that was in the main colour and not a splash for mana stability. Also blue stuff pitches to force when it's terrible. I honestly played honden of the seeing winds for a long time. But it wasn't good enough and I failed miserably.
Now let's compare it to future sight, the mana cost is not an issue as this is more or less a 2 colour deck. The 5cc, well you are just tutoring this for control so lets hope you don't draw it against aggro. Fow fodder is never bad. Ok say we actually resolve it, it's... The nuts? I mean it completely bypasses enlightened tutor's card disadvantage as you can play it off the top. It combos insanely with sensei's divining top and brainstorm. You can play like 2/3 cards a turn off FS and still leave a counterspell somewhere on the top 3 to screw your opponent. It's literally like a super counterbalance. The downside is that its not good with a blind balance as you are revealing your top card. In conclusion, this is very interesting. Control has always been the weak MU for thopthers and I'm very excited by this new tech.
I love mtgthesource for exactly this. The forefront of crazy new tech! Thanks foresmark!
Re: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter
I've yet to test or play against this deck, but Tezzy seems like an overcosted tutor, with his other abilities not bringing much to the table.
Re: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ivanpei
At first I was like WTF future sight? What is this? EDH? Then I thought for a while, seriously. I always wanted an enchantment draw effect in blue to tutor for against control. I splashed black once for dark tutelage MD but that sucked balls against aggro. I needed something that was in the main colour and not a splash for mana stability. Also blue stuff pitches to force when it's terrible. I honestly played honden of the seeing winds for a long time. But it wasn't good enough and I failed miserably.
Now let's compare it to future sight, the mana cost is not an issue as this is more or less a 2 colour deck. The 5cc, well you are just tutoring this for control so lets hope you don't draw it against aggro. Fow fodder is never bad. Ok say we actually resolve it, it's... The nuts? I mean it completely bypasses enlightened tutor's card disadvantage as you can play it off the top. It combos insanely with sensei's divining top and brainstorm. You can play like 2/3 cards a turn off FS and still leave a counterspell somewhere on the top 3 to screw your opponent. It's literally like a super counterbalance. The downside is that its not good with a blind balance as you are revealing your top card. In conclusion, this is very interesting. Control has always been the weak MU for thopthers and I'm very excited by this new tech.
I love mtgthesource for exactly this. The forefront of crazy new tech! Thanks foresmark!
The thing that I like about Future Sight is that, with Counterbalance, you can counter a Force of Will (or any other 5cc spell) if you resolve Enlightened Tutor in response.
Re: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter
And the funny thing is that future sight is EXACTLY the card you want to see against a control deck that runs force of will. That and the major style points for kicking ass with it. Look mom, I actually won a game in legacy by casting a 5cc card that isn't called Ad Nauseum!
Edit: Also with top, future sight can instantly be milked for maximum effect before it gets blown up. 1: Draw a card, is pretty awesome (tap top: draw a card, pay 1 recast top, repeat).
Re: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter
I also find the Future Sight tech quite interesting. And @ivanpei you're absolutely correct, it's completely insane with an active top. It's says ":1:: Draw a card. :1:: Brainstorm." Think about it. Looking at the top three cards, rearranging them, an being able to play one of them for :1: repeatedly is completely bonkers as well. Other cool interaction, as said, is hiding a counterspell/fow in the top 3, and just bring put it on top and play it whenever needed. One question though: If I have fow on top with future sight in play, I can still play the fow for its alternative casting cost, right?
Also, looking through the list there are quite a few interesting things I would like to discuss as well:
1) 2x EE and 2x Ruins maindeck. I think this is a very plausible idea. Ruins is so good in this deck, it's completely unfair. Recurring EE are one thing, but recurring lost Thopter Foundrys are good.
2) 1x Karakas MD. I've never been a fan of singletons without a way to tutor them up. Why do you think this was here?
3) Blood Moon MD and Red Elemental Blast SB. I am not sure what to think of this. Someone with more experience playing the deck should probably have something clever to say.
4) Ensnaring Bridge as a compliment to Moat. I like. Not sure I will be able to use it though, as I don't own any moats and play humility instead.
5) Wrath of God > Firespout. It's a whole turn slower, but is on color and takes care of Goyfs and Knights as well. Not to mention other randomness that firespout can't handle. Metal call or? Thoughts?
6) MD Pithing Needle. I like this very much, takes care of so much randomness. For example, Landstill is still around in my meta, would shut down factories and jaces if need be like a champ.
7) Some "missing" cards that I always try to make room for: Vedalken Shackles and Oblivion ring. While I think shackles is more of a meta card than anything else, I think I would miss the oblivion ring. Both cards are also 3cc for the purpose of CB.
Thoughts?
- forsmark
Re: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter
While I'm sure he was really tired and the matchup is annoying and tedious and complicated, I felt like Josh threw away a superior position in game 3 vs. Ben Weinburg's 4-color countertop.
Re: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter
@ forsmark:
1) Agreed academy ruins is a great card, however this deck plays up to 4 colours and still needs to run sufficient basics to play around wasteland into moat/humility on turn 4. If you are not splashing too many colours, the 2nd ruins seems fine. IMO he should play more volcanic islands. He runs 3 REB in the board, what if his volc got wasted? He would have 3 dead cards in his deck!
2) Guy likes cool things, or maybe he's seeing alot of show and tell/emrakul/reanimator
3) MD moon is not too bad, its excellent vs half the decks out there while being bad against the other half. There are too many decks that play noble heirarch and with the printing of Zendikar enemy fetches, bloodmoon is kinda lacklustre now. REB sb is quite common, most guys here have red for firespout and REB in the board. REB is the best card to run against blue control. It not only counters blue spells, it also nukes Jaces and counterbalances that are already in play. It can also be used as a STP against merfolk.
4) I play moat + bridge. I tutor for bridge half the time and moat half the time. Sometimes I go for both because they compliment each other. Usually I try to land moat but bridge is often easier to cast against things with wasteland. Bridge is MVP vs zoo and folk. Folk has wastelands and coralhelm commander which makes moat less effective while zoo is often so fast that a turn 4 moat is sometimes too slow. If you are playing humility, I don't recommend bridge.
5) Wrath is too slow in general, I think he just threw it in. Notice that he has no counterspells or spell snares. IMO this guy was getting slightly greedy.
6) MD needle is good in some metas, I play mine in the side though. You can shut down factories with moat/bridge too. Naming Jace with needle kinda splash damages on your own Jace too. You want to kill/counter Jace with EE/REB/O-ring, needling it is not as effective.
7) The problem is always space, pick and choose wisely, I usually like to play a 2/2 spell snare-counterspell split so I have limited space and my 3cc slot is currently ensnaring bridge.
I love future sight. I can't wait to test it. :)
Edit: I don't see why you can't pay the alternate casting cost for Force when future sight is on the table. There seems to be no ruling I can think of that says otherwise.
Re: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter
@Ivanpei
Thanks for the enlightenment. I have only been playing the deck online or with proxies, as I sadly own neither Jace nor Moat. I still however really really want to make a decklist that work. So far I've been replacing with Elspeth and Humility, respectively. I am starting to think it's not really doable. Thing is though, I simply refuse to pay 100$ for a type 2 card and quite a few cards are higher and my financial priority list than a 200$ singleton that's only really useful in a few decks.
Re: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter
@ Moat, I agree that this card is a pain in the ass to get. I only bought it after I finally finished getting all my 40 duals and 40 fetchlands (along with every other legacy staple). Of course I don't play standard at all so I have the money to concentrate on legacy and I've been playing since revised. Seriously though, its very strong in this deck.
As for Jace TMS, I don't see this card dropping in price anytime soon. Maybe after it rotates, but that's a long time. It will still be played in extended for as long as it remains legal. And even after that, it already is a legacy staple. It should settle at roughly 70+ USD or so IMO after it leaves standard. If you are willing to wait, why not save 30$ each? Elspeth+ humility seems like a good alternative, though I would claim that moat+ jace is better.
I'm playing this list:
4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 STP
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Top
2 Thopther
1 Sword
1 EE
1 Bridge
1 Moat
3 Jace TMS (Will try future sight instead of Jace 3)
3 Spell snare
2 Counterspell
1 Academy Ruins
3 Tundra
2 Trop
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Misty
4 Flooded
1 Windswept
5 Island
SB:
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox Warmonk
2 Path
2 Spell pierce
2 Grip
1 Relic
1 Crypt
1 Needle
I play a transformational sideboard against anything that runs krosan grip. I board out 4 tutors, 2 thopthers and sword of the meek for goyfs, warmonks and other good stuff.
Re: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ivanpei
@ Moat, I agree that this card is a pain in the ass to get. I only bought it after I finally finished getting all my 40 duals and 40 fetchlands (along with every other legacy staple). Of course I don't play standard at all so I have the money to concentrate on legacy and I've been playing since revised. Seriously though, its very strong in this deck.
As for Jace TMS, I don't see this card dropping in price anytime soon. Maybe after it rotates, but that's a long time. It will still be played in extended for as long as it remains legal. And even after that, it already is a legacy staple. It should settle at roughly 70+ USD or so IMO after it leaves standard. If you are willing to wait, why not save 30$ each? Elspeth+ humility seems like a good alternative, though I would claim that moat+ jace is better.
Moat + Jace is definately stronger, no doubt. It is however also several hundred dollars more expensive. :P
My list as of now:
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Future Sight
2 Humility
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Counterspell
2 Academy Ruins
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Arid Mesa
3 Plains
4 Island
The maindeck Needle is there for opposing Jaces and all sorts of junk.
Still not decided on the SB, but definately some staple singletons against graveyard and some firespout and REB/Pyroblast. Also, Vedalken Shackles and the third EE should be there.
A few things I would like help on:
1) 2x Humility or 1x Humility + 1x Ensnaring Bridge? Humility and Bridge obviously don't play together well, but as you said yourself, sometimes you tutor for one sometimes for the other depending on the situation. Bridge also gives me a 3cc tutorable card for CB.
2) Land configuration. I am thinking that maybe I should replace one of the Ruins with a Tolaria West. No matter what, I want to have more than one ruins in there somehow. Big fan of EE + Ruins.
- forsmark
Re: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter
IMO 2nd academy is better than the tolaria. Cip tap lands are terrible in legacy. The 3rd counterspell is too much, I would cut a Cspell and the 2nd humility for 2 snares. I find snares very useful in all mu's while cspell is really slow vs zoo and folk. As for bridge, I won't play it in your list. If you have a bridge in play, you can't kill with elspeth. Unless you plan on indestructable 1/1s getting past goyfs. If you upgrade elspeths to jace, I'll switch humility to bridge because I've been poked to death by 1/1s too many times. ;) generally I dislike humility in decks without manlands. Being able to stop a horde of 1/1s with a humble factory/vault that's built into your manabase was what traditionally makes humility good.
Re: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ivanpei
IMO 2nd academy is better than the tolaria. Cip tap lands are terrible in legacy. The 3rd counterspell is too much, I would cut a Cspell and the 2nd humility for 2 snares. I find snares very useful in all mu's while cspell is really slow vs zoo and folk. As for bridge, I won't play it in your list. If you have a bridge in play, you can't kill with elspeth. Unless you plan on indestructable 1/1s getting past goyfs. If you upgrade elspeths to jace, I'll switch humility to bridge because I've been poked to death by 1/1s too many times. ;)
Right you are about Elspeth + Bridge. Didn't see that. Thanks for your help. Last thing, what would you recommend in SB vs a meta with folks and zoo?
Re: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter
A combination of Kitchen Finks and Path to Exile.
Re: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter
I would play paths, REBs and firespouts. I find firespout -> finks most times. Finks doesn't stop island walking merfolks and finks can be pathed/burned by zoo. If you don't plan to splash red, finks + paths are probably best. Cheers.
Re: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter
In case anyone is interested, I've recorded a few matches w/ cbtop thopters on modo and posted them on my youtube channel.
Here is a match vs Jace/Loam/Cbtop, two epic games.
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...039163EF2F7BD3
You can find the others there too.
Re: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sauce
Kewl. Could watch these kinds of Legacy videos all day :I
Re: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter
Re: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter
Watched G1 vs Intuition countertop. I think letting Jace resolve was a mistake. You should have brainstormed/toped into the counterspell and cast the counterspell. Then when he forced you, you should have forced back. You would have won much earlier had you done that. Thats my 2 cents, the rest of the plays were good. Also, if you knew intuition countertop's list, you would know that it doesn't play No-pro, so you shouldn't have boarded in Llawan. I want to praise you on playing around spell pierce in G2 though. You slow rolled your top and that's a good play.
EDIT: G2, your opponent was super greedy, why did he blow up an EE for 2 when you both had counterbalance? I wouldn't have done that, even if I was sandbagging the 2nd balance. He was under no pressure to do so.
EDIT 2: You playing the thopther first was a mistake. You had a relic on the board. If you played sword first, baited the counter, then played thopther later on the same turn, you can sack relic to thopther and return sword back to play. ALWAYS bait with sword first in all situations.
