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http://magic.wizards.com/en/content/...ucts-game-infoQuote:
Originally Posted by TLK
Should be listed from 7/22 - I can see my user name there but the link is not showing anything yet for me. Once they fix it, the list I used is there. There are a some change from the CFB list. Most changes have been to have better game against miracles and storm. I'm still a dog to lands right now. Any input on how to beat them or what else to bring in would be great.
Edit - Link is now good I guess.
I've found Lands to actually be an ok match-up unless they are on the black splash. I bring in a set of Needles, a set of Extractions, Ghost Quarter, and Karakas against them generally. You have almost all of those cards in your list already, so I'm not sure what to recommend as worth testing. How have they been giving you issues? Waste lock? Fast token?Quote:
Originally Posted by WorstBandNameEver
I think one of the key differences in your list against Lands are the Hymn's over additional targeted discard. Stripping a tutor on the first turn (or forcing them to immediately crop rot) definitely changes the way things play out. Post board, taking Grip or Decay to protect Needles is important too. Hymn can hit lands that they will most likely get right back or even worse, Loam itself (sans an active DRS). I'm sure Hymn is better in other match-ups, but here it is just worse imo.
Another possible issue against Lands (having never played your exact list) could be that your main draw/dig spell is Dark Confidant. Having 11 creatures opens you up to Punishing Fire much more than other versions of Hexdepths. Punishing Fire is usually just a dead card in the match-up, but is great against DRS and Bob.
Steppe not being in your list also changes things a little. It has decided many games for me against lands where both players ended up with Marit Lage tokens and either had Karakas in the board G1, exiled via bog/DRS/Extraction/etc, handled by Waste/Quarter and no Loam, or just don't have another way to find it at that moment. Pro black just straight up wins the game in that spot more than you would think.
After the festival, I plan on testing out your version and Spooky's version to see how they play out. We will see how much I'm able to test against lands. It tends to be MIA online most of the time due to the cost of Port and almost all of my matches against it have happened in live tourneys. If I come up with anything, I'll let you know.
Good luck tomorrow!
Thanks for the thoughtful feedback Negator. I think part of my problem with lands is that I haven't played against it much as well. I might try to play a little more tonight and make a few adjustments. I'm just excited to play in the big event tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Negator77'
Punishing fires on DC is pretty rough. The point about grabbing their tutors is big. I have 3 extractions and have not seen them in the match ups I have played against lands. Luck of the draw on that I suppose. Being able to SE the loam would be nice.
Any further feedback you have when you get a chance to try it out would be great. I far from the best deckbuilder. I typically just copy lists from other people so working on this is well beyond what I'm used to doing.
Good luck tomorrow as well!
Hey man, sorry for the late reply, I've been out of the game for about a month, just taking a break. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
As far as specific match ups that I remember winning simply because I was too fast go...I've won games against almost all decks in one situation or another because I was too fast for them. Specific matches that I feel it was very important to win fast are: Burn, KotR decks, RUG Delver, Combo decks, Eldrazi, Infect...that's from the top of my head.
I think you should take what I say with a grain of salt, and try it for yourself. I mean, that's what I did. I play tested both versions quite a bit, and found I had more success and more fun with the turbo version. It just felt more streamlined to me, and the results seemed to back that up. You may find that you prefer a slower version, and that's okay. Negator and I have talked about it, and we both have our opinions, but we also have numbers on our respective sides. I don't think you can go wrong with either list at this point, they both have their ups and downs, and some metas will be more inviting than others for each. *shrugs*
Are cards like Winter Orb/Ankh of Mishra effective against Lands? I know they tax us as well, but it seems they'd be more brutal for a Lands player and also have implications against decks like Miracles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TLK
Winter orb could work well if used with tabernacle but against miracles , there only mana intensive ability would be top. Pithing needle does a better job at stopping that and chalice is even better cause it stops all their cantrips and swords.
I could see it doing ok vs lands but even they have moxes. i dont see this being better than our current options. Ankh is great against fetchlannds but we dont push and dmg other than marit lage so unless your deck is midrange i dont see you getting much benefit out of it.
Great point about Ankh. That would work better in a midrange shell.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
Depths had a very nice showing in the MTGO Festival champs. Three of us from the source Q'd for it and all did very well (all with different versions too!). I managed to go 6-1 with my BUG version, then lost in the top 8 to Miracles (good for sets of Eternal Masters and Vintage Masters). BGG88 finished 13th with a list more along the lines of what Spooky runs (ESG, NOTW, Petals). WorstBandName finished 23rd with his version (Bobs, DRS, Hymn). We could have finished even better had my second win and in not unfortunately been against BGG88. Who would have thought a qualification only premier event would have a Depths mirror as a win and in for top 8?
Decklists for the top 32 are here:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...mps-2016-07-25
There is a top 32 meta analysis here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c...dg&sh=9dddce24
My tourney went.... wins against Grixis Delver, Grixis Delver, Eldrazi, Miracles, and Reanimator to start 5-0... I then lost to Miracles before the win and in mirror in rd 7. Unfortunately I got paired against the Miracles player I lost to in round 6 of the swiss and lost again in the top 8.
Why do you not run Tabernacle in your version?
Off the top of my head, I can only think of a couple of games where Tabernacle would have won a game that I ended up losing, and they were both against TES where my turn 2 token wasn't fast enough to race their 12 turn 1 goblins on the play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann
In general, a lot of the creature decks Tabernacle would be useful against are already favorable or very favorable match-ups imo.
Just to add some data points, I've been playing with the Turbo version for a few tournaments recently.
Went 1-3 at a weekly
Enchantress: Loss 1-2 (BUG version with BS finding Decay would have been key here)
Painter: Loss 1-2 (literally turn 1 double Thoughtseized his two Blood Moons, he topdecked a third)
Junk Midrange: Loss 1-2
Sneak & Show: Win 2-0
2-1 at a weekly:
Burn: Win 2-0
Miracles: Win 2-0 (super grindy. won on the 4th Depths once I had a Chalice in play)
Eldrazi: Loss 1-2
2-1 at a weekly (3-0 if I were competent):
ANT: Win 2-1
Junk Midrange: Loss: 1-2 (forgot to play a land turn 2, should have clearly won)
ANT: Win 2-0
3-0 at a weekly:
Cephalid Breakfast: Win 2-1
Eldrazi: Win 2-0
Grixis Delver: Win 2-0 (he misplayed his Wasteland)
Just Top 4'd a ~40 person event.
Food Chain: 2-1 (definitely made a mistake in the loss. Opening hand of Hexmage, Depths, Stage, 2 Lotus Petals, and for some reason went for the turn 1 Hexmage rather than just doing an "uncounterable" turn 2 token / turn 3 swing, leaving me with no acceleration or colored mana)
Esper Deathbade: 2-0 (he waited to Swords, allowing me to draw Crop -> Sejiri)
Shardless Bug: 2-0 (strix is annoying)
ANT: 2-0
Eldrazi: ID
Eldrazi: ID
ANT: 2-0
Eldrazi: 0-2 (we both had the nuts in both games, but he was on the play. Turn 2 TKS both games is rough)
Decklist has shifted around slightly in the flex slots, but pretty much:
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
3 Into the North
3 Not of this World
3 Pithing Needle
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress
2 Bayou
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
SB:
1 Pithing Needle
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Krosan Grip
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Thorn of Amethyst
The deck has felt ridiculously consistent and it's an absolute blast. A couple of anecdotes from this go-around and the last time I played Negator's BUG version (a few months ago, probably one big tournament and a few weeklies):
1. I am 100% vs. Storm over probably 7 matches. I guess that's what you get when you have 8 discard, 4 chalice, 3 surgical, and 4 crop rotation into Bog, but is that everyone else's experience?
2. I have only beaten Eldrazi once, and it was due to serious land flood on his part. In almost every loss, I would have swung with Marit Lage next turn. What's funny is that in a lot of those cases, I would have won if they had dropped a lock piece rather than a turn 1 Mimic (that ends up doing 9 damage). How have your matchups gone and is there anything extra to do in the SB to help this? 2 Mazes?
3. I have gotten too many wins from people making inexperienced mistakes (Stifling Dark Depths trigger, waiting until I attack to Swords allowing me to draw Crop -> Sejiri, Wastelanding too early, etc.). I get that's the benefit of a fringe deck, but I assume that a) people don't make those mistakes in higher-level tournaments and b) the deck seems to be picking up a bit of popularity which will limit the wins we get from this.
4. I think I like this faster version a bit more than the BUG version. Not of this World has mattered many times, and I have gotten a ton of wins off of just powering out the token a turn earlier than the BUG version and protecting it through their one removal spell. That said, it may just be the meta around here that's helping with that. I have also not missed the Expedition Maps after taking them out, since 4 ESG and 4 Lotus Petals are enough to get the basic(s) you need under Blood Moon, but open to critique there.
5. Still no idea how Negator is 50/50 with D&T! It's such a beating every time, and the only games I win are when I have the nuts turn 1 Needle (and guess Waste vs. Karakas correctly) and turn 2 discard for Swords then make a dude without them having another answer. Powering out and hoping is all that's worked for me, because every other game ends up with them having 4 answers to the next Marit Lage I make.
I am still playing the deck from time to time on small tornament where I finish usually very well with lot of 4-1 ; and on cockatrice.
the deck is tier one my list destroys miracle it really does ; it has no bad matchup except for painter/dragon stompy MonoredSneak and BR reanimator.
I have validate the probe+cabal+bird+khalni garden tech it is really good to make sure you can go off.
The library are not that good when you know that lot of players have surgical in side and your own surgical can anhilitate both sword or opponent's surgical.
Surgical is a way sayfer plan I want to thanks negator for the tech.
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Forest
3 Llanowar Wastes
4 Mana Confluence
1 Khalni Garden
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Pithing Needle
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Not of This World
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
1 Marit Lage
1 Elemental
1 - If you have 3-4 additional hate cards (Chalice or Flusterstorm) in the sideboard, plus extractions, plus 8+ discard spells.... you should have a good storm match-up. It has been very favorable in my experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunfuzed
2 - That is surprising to hear.. I'm personally over 75% against them in 30+ matches. My only real rule against them is to try and make sure the opening hand in post board games has either Hexmage, Decay, Grip, or the natural combo through TNS and chalice. I have violated this before and lost because of it. Our decks should just be straight up faster, even on the draw. Perhaps you are just getting a little unlucky? How many matches do you have in against it?
3 - It's been a while since I've had an opponent make a Stifle mistake, but big tournaments have plenty of play error too. I watched two different opponents miss on board kills against spooky at GP Columbus. I personally have made some pretty awful plays in tournament matches. People generally have very little experience playing against this deck and will make some mistakes. This effect definitely goes away to a large degree the deeper you go into tourneys with a good/great record... At that point, you are generally running into better players, better decks, some scouting, etc... Online it's pretty much becoming known at this point. I'm often the only guy in the room on it IRL.
4 - Won't get much of an argument from me. I also like Map because of the ability to play through Daze. Sometimes you just have no discard and I'd rather not walk right into it. Your version runs ESG, which probably reduces the need. If you feel that moon and co isn't an issue for your deck, then it seems fine to cut.
5 - Haha! I play the match-up the exact opposite way. I slow all the way down boarding out all acceleration and trying to navigate the game and find a window. Winning fast is just really unlikely against a deck that runs as many different answers as they do. I'd start by adding a Wasteland to your 75 if you want to fight it better. Trying to fight that deck without at least tutorable 2 answers to their lands is all but impossible.
You're welcome. I'll have to try out the Garden/Probe/Therapy package. I've never truly been 100% happy with discard spells 5-8 after Thoughtseize.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
All three versions from the MTGO festival champs got briefly discussed in an article here:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...4-93bc60b8704b
It shows how well the deck did in that tourney and in general (tied for 5th most 5-0's and premier event finishes online in July with Shardless BUG).
Do you think Chalice of the Void is a good SB card? Your list runs 0 when many run 4.
I just recently tried it out after procrastinating about it for a long time on the theory that it wouldn't work in my version due to the high number of 1 drops. The card is very good, but its competing for the same sideboard slots that Flusterstorm currently occupies. In addition to the 1 drop issue, I run half the 0 cost acceleration pieces that the GB turbo version runs. That means turn 1 Chalice is off the table in most games, which is a big issue against decks like Storm since it can often be hit by their discard suite. Many Storm lists have also switched to Echoing Truth (plays right through Chalice for 1) which is coming in for token removal anyway. Turning that into an answer to your defensive cards as well is not where I want to be. The only match-up where I preferred it over Flusterstorm was against Miracles, which is obviously a big deal. Overall though, Flusterstorm is just the more flexible answer imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann
@negator On the topic of flusterstorm which matchups does it really shine over pierce? I was jamming some games against sneak and show the other day and having pierce for his moon effects saved me from some serious beatings. I can also see it being more relevant vs jace which is another card i know we dont like seeing. I dont own the storms currently and they are pretty low on my buy list. Also what are your thoughs on teferi's response? This is what im running:
4 bstorm
4 crop rotation
4 sylvan scrying
2 expedition map
4 mox diamond
4 hexmage
1 duress
1 iok
4 thought seize
2 decay
2 pithing needle
4 stage
4 depths
4 urborg
3 gemstone caverns
2 bayou
1 snow covered forest
4 verdant
1 misty
1 usea
1 trop
1 seriji step
1 b bog
1 ghost quarter
2 dark confidant
3 pierce
1 ghost quarter
2 needle
2 grip
1 lftl
1 karakas
3 surgical
As a new guy to the deck, I would be very interested in seeing as much info on ways to play the deck as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
Well, the big one is Storm... In general, another plus is how Flusterstorm interacts with opposing counters. The fast combo decks (Storm, Sneak + Show, Reanimator, etc.) are primary targets and all of them can either create enough mana to fight through Pierce (Storm especially) or often have their own counters to protect their big spell (S+S, UB Reanimator) on the first few turns. I've won a lot games where my opponents Force of Will/Daze was essentially blanked by Flusterstorm on an early turn where the opponent would have won on the spot against Spell Pierce.Quote:
Originally Posted by uncletiggy
Pierce being able to hit Blood Moon (and Sneak/Jace for that matter) is very good against Sneak and Show, but so is winning the fight over an early turn Show and Tell when they have counter backup. My plan against that deck is to fight Sneak Attack and Moon with Discard, Grips, Needle, etc. I haven't run into Jace post board against this deck, so some players may be boarding them out here. The two counters are probably somewhat interchangeable in this match-up though, both with pluses and minuses.
It's not a big one, but recently I've also been messing around with boarding in 2 copies of Flusterstorm against Miracles. It has won me a few games and it working through CounterTop has come up.
Teferi's Response seems kind of slow. Most good players will sit on Wasteland until you try to combo(unless they are going to straight up tempo you out), meaning you need at least 5 mana sources (6 if you don't have Urborg) before it works as a protection piece with Stage/Depths. I suppose 4 mana as a protection piece is the best case scenario if you can set up Urborg/Depths/Hexmage. It's very good on turn 2 against things like Port and has the occasional early turn blowout potential, but it's a little too narrow/slow otherwise imo.
Hi guys, new to this deck but fell in love as soon as I saw it. Just finished building the B/G stock version that has been floating around.
Would just like some Sideboarding advice since I am going to be playing it this weekend in a local Legacy Tournament.
Sideboard I have settled with is :
- 3 Adrupt Decay
- 4 Surgical Extraction
- 3 Chalice of the void
- 1 Maze of ith
- 1 Toxic deluge
- 1 karakas
- 1 Krossan Grip
- 1 Crucible of Worlds
Could someone explain when to bring in chalice on one (I understand chalice on 0)? Is it for miracles? What would I then cut, as the deck runs quite a large amount of 1 drops. Also what would I bring in against elves, as I'm expecting to maybe vs it this weekend. Definitely Toxic D, but maybe Chalice on one? It slows them down a huge amount. (I usually play other chalice decks).
The meta this weekend would have the following decks: Elves, Jund, Miracles, Esper stoneblade (with lingering souls D:), twelve post, re animator, maybe DnT or burn, and a couple other decks. Thanks for the help!