Re: [DECK] Eldrazi Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
I've played Stompy decks for many years in Legacy - of all shades (white Soldiers, blue Faerie, red Dragon, green Sylvan).
This version simply feels faster, but not necessarily superior. Soldiers had card draw and Thalia, whereas this deck doesn't really have any kind of card draw, and it has to play Thorn instead of a 2/1 body attached to Thorn. Dragon Stompy had Moon effects which are arguably more disruptive than anything this deck plays with the possible exception of Thought Knot Seer. Faerie Stompy of course had access to blue which gave it counters and Back to Basics and the like.
I think people might be overestimating this deck, especially people who have never played Stompy variants in Legacy before. The power of Chalice of the Void and/or Trinisphere or Thorn effects will give the pilot alot of free wins, but these decks were never close to Tier 1 because at their heart they are still playing fair Magic without any kind of consistent smoothing of card draws that blue cantrips provide. I don't really see Eldrazi improving those weaknesses, because although they are very efficient, they are still just creatures fighting fair like any other Stompy deck.
The only way Eldrazi Stompy differentiates itself from the rest of the Tier 2 Stompy decks of Legacy is if they simply prove to be significantly faster and that speed makes up for other inherent deficiencies of creature-based Chalice/Tomb decks.
One of the issues of stompy was that it wasn't consistent. The creatures were not threatening enough without equipment, or the land couldn't support the threatening creatures. Eldrazi seems to come close because it gets 4-7 more "sol lands" with temple and eye. The creatures are consistently large and threatening on their own. Although they are threats they don't provide much utility so its hard to strike a balance. One of their perks over mud is that they are not artifacts, just colorless.
To answer you more directly, the creatures are more efficient and can be faster. The issue is that you are not fighting against fair decks in the format. While there is a fair amount of synergy in the deck I don't see anything AMAZING that says, oh wow that could change things.
I see tons of problems the deck could run into such as ensnaring bridge and very few ways to deal with it.
I'd say of all the stompy decks, green was probably the best. I know the deck never gained much recognition but it was discussed and worked on a lot by lejay. Green has access to some of the best creatures in existence, and GSZ and the deck still couldn't make the cut to tier 1 of the legacy format.
Re: [DECK] Eldrazi Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
apple713
One of the issues of stompy was that it wasn't consistent. The creatures were not threatening enough without equipment, or the land couldn't support the threatening creatures. Eldrazi seems to come close because it gets 4-7 more "sol lands" with temple and eye. The creatures are consistently large and threatening on their own. Although they are threats they don't provide much utility so its hard to strike a balance. One of their perks over mud is that they are not artifacts, just colorless.
To answer you more directly, the creatures are more efficient and can be faster. The issue is that you are not fighting against fair decks in the format. While there is a fair amount of synergy in the deck I don't see anything AMAZING that says, oh wow that could change things.
I see tons of problems the deck could run into such as ensnaring bridge and very few ways to deal with it.
I'd say of all the stompy decks, green was probably the best. I know the deck never gained much recognition but it was discussed and worked on a lot by lejay. Green has access to some of the best creatures in existence, and GSZ and the deck still couldn't make the cut to tier 1 of the legacy format.
Exactly. I don't see anything AMAZING in this deck either. It's more consistent with more "sol lands" (but even the extra sol lands are only sol lands for the creatures and not for the lock pieces), and it's faster (cheaper creatures) than the other stompy decks, but that's basically it. There's no real degenerate card advantage engine, nor is there any really oppressive lock piece that wasn't already accessible to other Stompy decks. Thought-Knot Seer is by far the best Eldrazi and is a powerful tempo tool, but it's essentially at the power level of a Vendilion Clique or slightly better.
I wouldn't be surprised to see it top-8 a tournament or two at some point in the near future, but in the same way that MUD occasionally top-8s a tournament - the pieces fall in the right place and the deck just gets a string of good match-ups and good fortune. I can't see Eldrazi oppressing Legacy as it did to Modern, but it will be a deck to consider for your next Legacy gauntlet.
Re: [DECK] Eldrazi Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
Exactly. I don't see anything AMAZING in this deck either. It's more consistent with more "sol lands" (but even the extra sol lands are only sol lands for the creatures and not for the lock pieces), and it's faster (cheaper creatures) than the other stompy decks, but that's basically it. There's no real degenerate card advantage engine, nor is there any really oppressive lock piece that wasn't already accessible to other Stompy decks. Thought-Knot Seer is by far the best Eldrazi and is a powerful tempo tool, but it's essentially at the power level of a Vendilion Clique or slightly better.
I wouldn't be surprised to see it top-8 a tournament or two at some point in the near future, but in the same way that MUD occasionally top-8s a tournament - the pieces fall in the right place and the deck just gets a string of good match-ups and good fortune. I can't see Eldrazi oppressing Legacy as it did to Modern, but it will be a deck to consider for your next Legacy gauntlet.
The reason this deck is better than other stompy lists is that it has a very easy time vs lots of combo decks; all the sol lands you could want and plenty of turn 1 plays (thorns, spheres, chalice, revoker, null rod) - repeatable lock pieces that turn into a 4/4 TKS hand-killer the next turn. Unlike MUD, this deck doesn't suffer from the age old problem of locking themselves out of the game with their own prison pieces. It also smashes non-proactive decks like miracles. Think of eldrazi as a 12-post deck that is actually good vs combo, but will still struggle with fair decks.
If I had a nickel for every time MUD went tomb -> monolith -> 3-ball and then opponent wastelands them, leaving them on city [in hand] and no way to cast a spell, I'd have a lot of nickels.
Re: [DECK] Eldrazi Stompy
there was a buyout on thorn because of this deck lol
Re: [DECK] Eldrazi Stompy
I know it's terrible slow but I think Dust Bowl should be considered over Wasteland with so many legendary lands. Although Wasteland is good, I don't think this is a wasteland deck but sometimes you still need to address problematic lands. The argument against Dust Bowl is that you won't be able to activate it against your opponents wastelands, but then you probably wouldn't activate wasteland anyway
Re: [DECK] Eldrazi Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bruizar
I know it's terrible slow but I think
Dust Bowl should be considered over Wasteland with so many legendary lands. Although Wasteland is good, I don't think this is a wasteland deck but sometimes you still need to address problematic lands. The argument against Dust Bowl is that you won't be able to activate it against your opponents wastelands, but then you probably wouldn't activate wasteland anyway
Don't play subpar lands. Just put a Crucible or two to the sideboard for the matchups where Wastelands are a wincon/threat.
Re: [DECK] Eldrazi Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
The power of Chalice of the Void and/or Trinisphere or Thorn effects will give the pilot alot of free wins, but these decks were never close to Tier 1 because at their heart they are still playing fair Magic without any kind of consistent smoothing of card draws that blue cantrips provide.
I guess D&T will never be close to tier one either.
Eldrazis Shops is far more consistent that people give it credit for. 7-8 lock pieces, 14-16 sol lands, plus a lower and more flexible curve make Eldrazis Shops a lot more consistent than old school MUD.
Re: [DECK] Eldrazi Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
Could the GW list be tuned to support multiple
Thragtusk in its 75? It dawned to me when I was reconsidering several slots (3sphere, Metamorph, and to a certain degree Conduit).
Thragtusk is fat, restores our strained life, leaves a token if they play removal (filling a quite similiar role as Factory) and, most importantly, comboes extremely well with Displacer. "2C, gain 5 life and a 3/3? - I'll take that."
Edit: Either that, or a Stoneforge package, which might require less overall changes.
Edit #2: Did a bit of goldfishing, replacing
- 2 Metamorph
- 2 Conduit
- 1 Jitte
with
+ 4 SFM
+ 1 Batterskull
Thragtusk is a card i loved from my old Nic Fit decks, but i think the "Gain Life" Idea lead to other cards. Thragtusk needs Green and while the deck can support many white cards thanks to 2-3 Karakas, green is a little bit harder (World Breaker profits from Cavern). So ok you can set Cavern for Beast, but this is only wise if you find a 2nd copy of Cavern (and your opponent don't Waste the first). The combo with Displacer is nice, but if i would try to find room (and mana) for a green card, my first pick would be Sylvan Library over KGrip, Thragtusk, Rec.Sage etc. Sylvan Library is perfect for a Mid-Lategame build like GW or RG Eldrazi. Sadly i can't find the right spot for it, but i think it can be a huge deal for consistency and it is more or less a threat on its own.
If you aim for "gain Life" you can try Instants like Feed the Clan or Rest for the Weary but i think the best options from white are: Worship and Ajani Steadfast - while Worship can be a no brainer (vs other Eldrazi etc.), Ajani offers a aggressive way for UW, his +1 will be quite good with Smasher/Seer and his other Ability can easily pump the Swarm (Skyspawner/Drowner + Displacer)
Stoneforge Mystic was at my very first White Eldrazi Sketch, with Displacer and with Matter Reshaper (!) - so yes it can work, but i would only use 3 + 1 Skull +1 Jitte, this leaves the GW Build with: Keep 1 Conduit (as a tutor) or keep 1 Metamorph (with Stoneforge and BSkull in mind) - but with the cut of Eldrazi i don't see the 3rd Eye as a good choice at Barooks Build. I would only use 2, because they will do nothing for many non Eldrazi cards at Mid-Lategame Builds - aim for as much consistency as possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bruizar
I know it's terrible slow but I think
Dust Bowl should be considered over Wasteland with so many legendary lands. Although Wasteland is good, I don't think this is a wasteland deck but sometimes you still need to address problematic lands. The argument against Dust Bowl is that you won't be able to activate it against your opponents wastelands, but then you probably wouldn't activate wasteland anyway
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hopo
Don't play subpar lands. Just put a Crucible or two to the sideboard for the matchups where Wastelands are a wincon/threat.
I also tried Wastelands at UW, i only see them at aggressive Builds - and i don't like all the builds that will use them without any Crucible... The Questions is, are Wastelands good enough, because Manadenial can be quite problematic for Eldrazi and it can lead to awkward decisions. I think, if you like to play bombs (All is Dust, World Breaker, Ulamog etc.) Wastelands are not so good, because if your Wasteland will not (more or less) win the game, your opponent can still recover and you can fall behind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Crimhead
I guess D&T will never be close to tier one either.
Eldrazis Shops is far more consistent that people give it credit for. 7-8 lock pieces, 14-16 sol lands, plus a lower and more flexible curve make Eldrazis Shops a lot more consistent than old school MUD.
Death and Taxes, Elves etc. - you don't need "Blue", you need a well build deck that covers all the fair and unfair aspects of legacy to some degree. Consistency is important if you aim to win a long tournament and as far as I can see Eldrazi can be build that way, but it is no easy task and you still need a bit of luck and afterall a good pilot.
Re: [DECK] Eldrazi Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
The reason this deck is better than other stompy lists is that it has a very easy time vs lots of combo decks; all the sol lands you could want and plenty of turn 1 plays (thorns, spheres, chalice, revoker, null rod) - repeatable lock pieces that turn into a 4/4 TKS hand-killer the next turn. Unlike MUD, this deck doesn't suffer from the age old problem of locking themselves out of the game with their own prison pieces. It also smashes non-proactive decks like miracles. Think of eldrazi as a 12-post deck that is actually good vs combo, but will still struggle with fair decks.
If I had a nickel for every time MUD went tomb -> monolith -> 3-ball and then opponent wastelands them, leaving them on city [in hand] and no way to cast a spell, I'd have a lot of nickels.
I've played lots of other Stompy lists that had strong game against combo decks as well - Soldier Stompy played 4 Thalias, 4 Chalices, and 2-3 Karakas MD. At the end of the day, you could beat all the combo decks in the world but if you're still trying to win by attacking with creatures, you have to fight through creature hate such as sweepers (Terminus and co. are all still very live against Eldrazi and any other "Stompy" deck) and Batterskulls and opposing creatures racing.
Re: [DECK] Eldrazi Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
I've played lots of other Stompy lists that had strong game against combo decks as well - Soldier Stompy played 4 Thalias, 4 Chalices, and 2-3 Karakas MD. At the end of the day, you could beat all the combo decks in the world but if you're still trying to win by attacking with creatures, you have to fight through creature hate such as sweepers (Terminus and co. are all still very live against Eldrazi and any other "Stompy" deck) and Batterskulls and opposing creatures racing.
It's pretty easy to beat a Terminus with this deck. If you have a Chalice, a single Reality Smasher will force them to Terminus and you have plenty of other big dudes.
Re: [DECK] Eldrazi Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AustinP
there was a buyout on thorn because of this deck lol
Holy crap, you weren't kidding. TCG Mid is suddenly $16. WTF?
Meanwhile Trinisphere is up to... $20? Good god!
Safe to say at this point, the ship is sailing. I'd say it's already sailed, but I think the prices are going to continue to rise after SCG Philly.
Re: [DECK] Eldrazi Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Admiral_Arzar
It's pretty easy to beat a Terminus with this deck. If you have a Chalice, a single Reality Smasher will force them to Terminus and you have plenty of other big dudes.
Also, there is Warping Wail or Displacer activation on TKS during Miracle trigger
Re: [DECK] Eldrazi Stompy
WOW. Not one, not two, not three, but FOUR new articles today on starcitygames.com about Eldrazi in in Legacy:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...th-Modern.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...de-Legacy.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...In-Legacy.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...And-Taxes.html
It's obvious that EVERYBODY has their sights set on the deck in Legacy now. If you're playing Eldrazi in Legacy, you have zero element of surprise now.
Re: [DECK] Eldrazi Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
And they all disagree in various ways on how the deck should be built. Except for Crystal Vein? When did that become a standard part of the deck?
Re: [DECK] Eldrazi Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
Fortunately it's very clear these guys are on level 1 as far as strategizing with/against the deck. This thread, and my team in particular, are several steps beyond the thinking they are laying out.
For example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Anderson
I mean, how does this deck beat True-Name Nemesis?
You attack over it with Reality Smasher. You make a bunch of giant Eldrazi and they can only block one. And the whole time, they can't attack you, or you get to run them over. I love seeing True-Name across the table. It means they tapped out to play a Fog Bank.
Also, Brad Nelson seems to be convinced that Death and Taxes is the way to beat the Eldrazi deck. Our testing shows this matchup to be favorable for us at worst and easy at best. It's something like 60/40 in favor of Eldrazi but we don't have a huge sample size. I think this is because we go much heavier on cards like Revoker and Warping Wail which are quite good against D&T, where Brad's sample list plays light spatterings of them.
Although:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Anderson
But don't think you can sleep on this deck and just dodge it. I think many of the better players at the event will want to try out the hot new thing, and having a lot of strong pilots playing a powerful, proactive deck could spell disaster yet again.
You're correct on this one, Todd. There are two Legacy Champs/SCG Open champions in my testing group that will be bringing this deck to Philly.
I'd be more worried about Miracles running Moats in the sideboard, but unless they already have them, who's going to shell out $300-600 for sideboard cards?
@iostream Crystal Vein isn't a standard part of the deck. They're just on level 1 as far as deckbuilding. These lists are all theory with no testing to support them.
@MGB The surprise factor was already gone thanks to MODO being infested with unrefined versions of this deck. The real advantage is that people still don't know how to play against it yet, but we know how to play against them thanks to extensive testing.
Re: [DECK] Eldrazi Stompy
The thing is, between All is Dust and World Breaker, there are no permanents that provide safety from Eldrazi's inevitability. No moat, no True-Name Nemesis. Most they can do is stall and win before you can solve it. The only silver bullet imo is wastelocking.
Those articles are indeed a few steps behind. It's good to see Barook's list in there. The conclusion that lands is the best deck to beat Eldrazi is semi-accurate. I think Goblins is a good contender as well. That said, I will develop the processor version more as Leyline of the Void in theory should put a dent in the lands matchup and I'll continue to pilot between GW/UW/colorless until I feel more comfortable with the processor build.
Re: [DECK] Eldrazi Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
WOW. Not one, not two, not three, but FOUR new articles today on starcitygames.com about Eldrazi in in Legacy:
It's obvious that EVERYBODY has their sights set on the deck in Legacy now. If you're playing Eldrazi in Legacy, you have zero element of surprise now.
I don't think there is anything too complex when it comes to beating this deck. In modern it is mainly a question of whether or not you can catch up on mana (you generally need to be using aether vial). In legacy it's a little more complex as you must ask what your deck can win through (in terms of lock pieces), and if you get past that point it's about comparative creature quality and/or life differential (having life gain like bskull or forcing them to tap tombs). Less often the answer is to get under the eldrazi deck (according to sideboards reanimator for example), or establish lock with lands.
This deck has no shortage of bad matchups, but to its credit DnT and Lands are about its only tier 1 predators. Outside those two decks [and amazingly fast combo] there are fairly serious questions posed to Eldrazi by cards like Aluren, Ancient Grudge (especially if we start seeing Taiga in burn), Ensaring Bridge + Abyss (tezz), Blood Moon (as much as it pains me to point out that legacy twin is on the very short list of decks that can actually cast this in a relevant time frame, through taxes), Back to Basics (more likely to find its way into a deck with petals), Wurmcoil Engine, and to round this hastily made list: Tabernacle...and maybe even Kataki. As game-ending as such cards can be vs Eldrazi, you actually don't need your deck's gameplan to work all that well if you can keep eldrazi tapping their tombs.
As a closing thought, eldrazi will likely be less able to rely on reality smashers with the infusion of more madness mechanic in coming set.
Re: [DECK] Eldrazi Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
I don't think there is anything too complex when it comes to beating this deck. In modern it is mainly a question of whether or not you can catch up on mana (you generally need to be using aether vial). In legacy it's a little more complex as you must ask what your deck can win through (in terms of lock pieces), and if you get past that point it's about comparative creature quality and/or life differential (having life gain like bskull or forcing them to tap tombs). Less often the answer is to get under the eldrazi deck (according to sideboards reanimator for example), or establish lock with lands.
This deck has no shortage of bad matchups, but to its credit DnT and Lands are about its only tier 1 predators. Outside those two decks [and amazingly fast combo] there are fairly serious questions posed to Eldrazi by cards like Aluren, Ancient Grudge (especially if we start seeing Taiga in burn), Ensaring Bridge + Abyss (tezz), Blood Moon (as much as it pains me to point out that legacy twin is on the very short list of decks that can actually cast this in a relevant time frame, through taxes), Back to Basics (more likely to find its way into a deck with petals), Wurmcoil Engine, and to round this hastily made list: Tabernacle...and maybe even Kataki. As game-ending as such cards can be vs Eldrazi, you actually don't need your deck's gameplan to work all that well if you can keep eldrazi tapping their tombs.
Urborg is the main reason why I like the colorless / processor build. I said it before and I'll say it again. I have died to Ancient Tombs more than against my opponents over the last 10 years. Urborg is so much better in legacy than it is in modern precisely because it mitigates forced damage from ancient tomb.
Re: [DECK] Eldrazi Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
As a closing thought, eldrazi will likely be less able to rely on reality smashers with the infusion of more madness mechanic in coming set.
The idea that we will see Legacy playable madness cards is speculative at best.
Re: [DECK] Eldrazi Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bruizar
The thing is, between All is Dust and World Breaker, there are no permanents that provide safety from Eldrazi's inevitability. No moat, no True-Name Nemesis. Most they can do is stall and win before you can solve it. The only silver bullet imo is wastelocking.
Those articles are indeed a few steps behind. It's good to see Barook's list in there. The conclusion that lands is the best deck to beat Eldrazi is semi-accurate. I think Goblins is a good contender as well. That said, I will develop the processor version more as Leyline of the Void in theory should put a dent in the lands matchup and I'll continue to pilot between GW/UW/colorless until I feel more comfortable with the processor build.
Quoting my list and then shittalking Displacer without obviously playtesting is disappointing. Endgame? Displacer can be online T2-T3, depending on the match and your draw.
After MD.Ghost's feedback, I'll test a Stoneforge list with 3 SFM, 1 Jitte, 1 Batterskull, 1 SoFaI MD and a SB Sword of Feast and Famine.
